CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #2

[concernedmother]

Maybe after being called so many times and the perp getting away before they could catch him they just wanted this case to go away.

 

[Moxie Vi]

This is a perplexing case for certain!!!

 

[MayraMM]

Let's talk about the interview last night. There are a couple of issues that jumped out at me.

First, I was under the impression that M was diagnosed and treated for the CO poisoning 8 years ago and the ami was given for residual stomach pain, along with the hyperbaric treatments. But, if I heard mom correctly, she was diagnosed by the family 8 years prior, given the ami, but didn't get the hyperbaric treatment until later. This means she had chronic pain for years and years, not to mention the cognitive restrictions. This would explain her being home schooled.

M took herself off the ami when she turned 18, not wanting to take any meds. Maybe she didn't want to take them all along, but had to wait until she was 18 to DC them.

She had almost 2 years of a normal youth after being off the meds and the hyperbaric treatments. She was going to school, had a BF, worked, babysat. But, for 6 years before that, the poor girl was experiencing severe pain. Off the meds, the pain could have continued, but not wanting to upset her parents or be forced back on the meds, she didn't report it.

The second thing I noticed is that every time mom quoted M directly, she reverted to a little girl's voice. Perhaps subconsciously, in her mind, M was a child. This makes sense, since she's the youngest, she was sickly, a girl, etc.

M is now an adult, doing more things on her own. But watching her BF leave for an exciting life in a new country while she's left behind. She still lives at home! Then all of the sudden this stalking happens and she reverts back to being treated like a child, sleeping in mom's closet, having a curfew, not being allowed to do things and go places like those brief months before.

That would put a huge strain on her, causing her to stop eating, get the black circles under her eyes, and feel depressed (especially after seeing the ex), yet not wanting to tell the folks and lose even more independence. That could have been the gist of her convo that last night with dad, and it saddened him,

I'm just pointing out that there's more to the story, more background that we have no real picture of. We're going only by mom's say-so that she was upbeat and happy, while at the same time getting all these clues that things weren't quite that simple.

No parent wants to believe their child committed suicide. I know I'd fight that cause of death on the ME report, too. I wouldn't want to believe it for a second. Not my child! That would mean I did something wrong or didn't do something right; that I couldn't save my own kid, that my child didn't want to be around me anymore. It would break my heart, and likely, rather than feel the pain, I would hang on to anything else that would keep me from having to contemplate that. Anger is so much easier to deal with than profound grief. I would probably do exactly as TI is doing. Murder would mean she was taken from them, not that she chose to leave.

The independent pathologist said there was no previous evidence of suicidal ideation and no reason to believe suicide; yet he really couldn't speak on M's frame of mind, since he never met her, couldn't interview her, and had little else to base his mental health assessment on.

I think M's story may come out in her pictures. If she did commit suicide, and if she did leave a "note", it would probably be in those pictures she took or her last convo with dad.

If she was murdered, that evidence, too, could be in those pictures.

I'm not doubting that there was a peeper in August, possibly a stalker, but again, I bet if there was, he/she might be on that camera, too.

 

[21merc7]

MayraMM, I had not thought about continuing pain. I still haven't heard the interview though. I did not realize she was on medication that long. Interesting. Wonder what if any long term effects and then quitting effects there would be.

I agree with all you have said.

I have thought about the bf leaving, about all the rules, constant contact and questioning, about still living at home. I could never have done it. My siblings and I were all out of the home before 18 for other reasons, but at 20 there is no way I would have wanted all that going on. I wanted to be free to get out there and experience my own life, to make mistakes, to find out why rules exist in my own hard headed way. Most any college age person does. I was never home by my parents household rule of 9:30 that I grew up with. I was out until whenever I wanted to be, learning, growing, messing up.

I understand the grieving and inability to accept process. I understand utter anger and inability to accept just what I think happened here. I wonder if dad isn't just letting mom go through this process in this way hoping it will jolt her into the realization that M took her own life or she can find out through observers. I wonder a lot of things right now.

I'm still waiting for more pieces, but I do see things being added to address anything mentioned on the boards. I'll wait to see what evidence there may be if it gets posted. I still cannot see murder being the COD, unless there is a whole lot more that is yet to be told.

I feel very sorry for them, but Morgan wanted to make her own choices, and was certainly old enough to do so, even if she sometimes clung to them. 20 is a very confusing age, sometimes all the way up to 30 something.

I hope my theory is wrong. I hope there is new evidence that LE did not look at and it can be investigated, for their sake. If not, acceptance will have to come. LE can not spend time where there is nothing to look into, not for any reason.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Mania is a possible effect of stopping Elavil abruptly. A person has to taper down on a schedule according to how much they're taking.

 

[MayraMM]

I understand the grieving and inability to accept process. I understand utter anger and inability to accept just what I think happened here. I wonder if dad isn't just letting mom go through this process in this way hoping it will jolt her into the realization that M took her own life or she can find out through observers. I wonder a lot of things right now.

I was thinking the same thing about dad, too. The only way he can help mom is to let her go thru her process, support her, and be there when all the evidence points to the scenario she's trying to fight.

And as terrible as murder is, for their sake, I too hope some evidence pops up that supports their theory. In the mean time, tho, with what we have to go on, I don't see murder as being COD.

 

[gitana1]

Dr. Doberson is the origin of the phrase as it relates to this case. Perhaps he had a reason? Don't think he would be emotionally charged in his description. I have nevr thought of flexeril as a date rape drug either and really would not have classified it as such in my own mind.

He described Flexeril as a medication "sometimes used as a date rape drug". He did not state it was a date rape drug.

Really, anything that produces sleepiness or relaxes muscles or kills pain can be used as a date rape drug.

All of those medications are also used to commit suicide as well.

So, I don't see anything in the actual drugs in Morgan's system that points to murder.

And remember, Dr. Doberson did not say he would classify her death as murder.

It was a great interview. Tricia definitely didn't hold back with questioning. That's the first time I've listened to the radio show.

From what I understand, all the videos were saved to a dropbox. When Mrs. I asked LE, they said they haven't had a chance to review them yet. This was some months after M's death. That's when mom looked at them.( I guess whatever she saw caused her to start asking questions.)

Ms. Ingram stated the moment she found her child's body she knew it wasn't suicide and that she had been killed. It thus makes little sense, especially since they were the victim of a stalker for four months prior to the death, that someone in the family wouldn't have looked at the surveillance footage right away.

If she committed suicide, it's seems like a pretty painful way to do it. From the linked article I've been reading about this ami, it list a few cases where people ODed on the stuff. There is also a write up about an autopsy done on one of the cases of OD.

I'm not a medical person, but from everything I've read.....it sounds like it would be a quite death (if you were in bed), but a painful one. You would have seizure after seizure. Sounds like you would basically choke on your own fluids. (, this could explain the fingernails)
http://www.inchem.org/documents/ukpids/ukpids/ukpid18.htm


I'm just snipping a piece of each case study in the article. You can go to the article and read what the stats were on each.

I hate to write things like this, but I suspect there are easier ways of killing yourself.

Listen, virtually every drug you can overdose on can cause similar symptoms. And seizures, according to your link, only happen in 6% of ami. overdoes victims. But, 50% experience coma.

That fact is, suicide by poison/overdose is the method most women choose to kill themselves with. http://depression.about.com/od/suicid1/f/suicide.htm

Further, there is link after link after link, including academic publications, indicating that ami. is used to commit suicide, often.

Finally, there are also various links in which suicidal thoughts are linked to both amitryptiline and Flexeril use.

To me, it makes more sense that a person would use these drugs to commit suicide rather than be murdered with them by a stalker, with no signs of forced entry, no signs of entry period and with the knowledge that the M.O. of virtually every type of stalker who murders, is violent murder.

Marshmallow, from what I remember of the first of M's stalking, M did do an interview with the LE a couple of times. Don't think it was down at the station, I think they happened in her house.

From every stalking show on ID channel that I watched, one theme seems to be the most noticeable. LE can't do anything about it until there is proof of a threat of physical violence. Even the LE they interview for the show says it is very frustrating. One thing they tell these women, document everything. Some of these women have thousands of documented stuff wrote down. Even if they got a clear picture of the stalker in her yard, I'm really not sure a whole lot would have happened to him. It's easy to explain away.."Hey, I was just walking through the yard"

But I do understand your frustration with the case.

as always, JMO

I file domestic violence restraining order requests every year based on harassment - not threats, just harassment. And I get the restraining orders.

In Colorado, you don't need threats. Stalking is a felony and can include harassment alone - no threats.

The problem here is the stalker never made his or herself known. In most cases, it is quite clear who the stalker is (except the more rare serial killer stalkers). That's what makes this case hard to prosecute.

:gasp:
I got a D on this quiz!!!

I got 70%! What's my grade, people? I think it's good?

IMO....it seems like when she first died, the family was grieving. Understandable. I'm sure they were living in a daze for several months.

I would suspect that they started seeing videos that were turned over and it had some questionable images on it, the LE probably quit looking for the stalker since M was gone, the family was asking questions and were ignored or brushed aside. Then in July of this year when the ME changed the cause of death to suicide.... that is what did it.

This is all JMO.

BBM. That kind of makes some sense.

Answers/comments bolded.

I don't think LE just calls something felony stalking on a whim. In my case, the guy had actually told me (in front of other people) that he could easily shoot me in my sleep and with my history, it would just be ruled as suidide. My case was never changed to felony stalking; it stayed at harrassment and violating ROs the entire time.

It appears very clear from the blog that it was labelled stalking once a certain number of incidents were reported. That's it.

I guess that depends on where you are. I knew a man (sort of related, through marriage) who was concerned about all of the expensive tools he had in his garage/workshop, so he put up a couple bright outdoor lights for those reasons. The very next night, someone broke in and emptied the place out. The police told him that having lights that stay on all night was the worst thing he could do. It didn't scare burglars off, it just made it easier for them to see to break in and avoid the alarm.

I guess there are advantages and disadvantages to most things.

Okay, the family had the house lit up like a roman candle precisely so they could catch a stalker and he or she could not approach the house without being seen.

They were not trying to avoid a burglary.

Also, we are not talking about why the Ingrams didn't set up flood lights all around their garage. We are asking why, in light of relentless stalking, stalking that they hoped, incidentally, to stop by catching the stalker on camera, they would plunge their front porch in darkness each night.

Makes zero sense.

Should be able to, for a fee for copies.

They absolutely are able to go right in and get every police report. That they haven't, based on a vague, "well, I don't think the police like us very much right now", completely baffles me.

I live in the same valley as the Ingrams. No one leaves their lights on at night, and there are very few street lamps, if any. People who have lived in such an area for a long time like the Ingrams are accustomed to this. Few long-time residents here lock their doors. People poke fun at me here for always locking my car, both when I'm parked at a friend's house AND when I'm driving.

(I'm from a big city, so lights and locks are second nature to me, just as lack of locks and pure darkness in residential neighborhoods are second nature to long-time residents of this valley.)

Yes, but the Ingrams are not just anyone. They were the victims of ruthless stalking for four months. How in the heck (with respect, lol), do the habits of normal people in a low-crime area, who have not been terrorized for months on end, justify an inexplicable act on the part of the Ingrams, that makes their home easier to break into undetected?

It seems that part of the "fun" for the stalker is the torment he causes his victims, not the capture of his victims. It's like threatening to tickle someone: sometimes the threat of impending tickle is worse than actually being tickled (I speak from experience on the tickling bit!). I think this stalker in particular reveled every time the ante was upped by the family buying more equipment, increasing their vigilance, etc.

Okay, but we are not talking about why the stalker does something. We are talking about why the Ingrams did or did not do something. The Ingrams did not fail to keep their porch light on because they believed the stalker just wanted to torment them. They lived in abject fear of Morgan being "caught". So the possible behavior motivations of stalkers do not explain why the Ingrams left their front porch in total darkness, so anyone could approach, not be caught clearly on film and break in unseen by anyone around.

Oh, BTW, :fireworks::welcome::fireworks:

I hope you don;t mind my pointed questions. We love new perspectives around here!!!!!

 

[21merc7]

And remember, Dr. Doberson did not say he would classify her death as murder.

It appears very clear from the blog that it was labelled stalking once a certain number of incidents were reported. That's it.

Okay, but we are not talking about why the stalker does something. We are talking about why the Ingrams did or did not do something. The Ingrams did not fail to keep their porch light on because they believed the stalker just wanted to torment them. They lived in abject fear of Morgan being "caught". So the possible behavior motivations of stalkers do not explain why the Ingrams left heir front porch in total darkness, so anyone could approach, not be caught clearly on film and break in unseen by anyone around.

Respectfully snipped

The first 2 paragraphs I did not know, very helpful, thank you.

The 3rd, I have a problem with the porch light too. Given all the other lights and cams, but mostly given key code punching and broken locks. Every light I could find would be on. It would look like that Christmas Vacation movie at my house! Even the yard would be full of those cheap plastic solar lights scattered around. I'm not exaggerating, just the way I am. I would not care what the neighbors thought either, so be glad I'm not anyone's neighbor here, lol.

I agree with everything else, just snipped for space.

 

[Hopeful One]

Another question: Do we know what Morgan was saying to her friends about all of this? From what I've read so far (I'm only at August 25th right now), it sounds like Mom and Dad are hyper-vigilant, as Mom puts it, but Morgan is down-playing it, not too freaked out yet, or just trying to ignore it for the most part.

So it seems to me that Morgan may feel her parents are overreacting. At some points Mom mentions that Morgan is so afraid that she broke out in a rash. Then other times, she doesn't even seem to want to talk about it. So I'm wondering what she was telling her friends. Was she telling them how scared she was? Or was she telling them that her parents are paranoid? Was she journaling about it?

I really would love to get some first-hand info on Morgan's state of mind, not just through the eyes of Mom.

 

[21merc7]

Another question: Do we know what Morgan was saying to her friends about all of this? From what I've read so far (I'm only at August 25th right now), it sounds like Mom and Dad are hyper-vigilant, as Mom puts it, but Morgan is down-playing it, not too freaked out yet, or just trying to ignore it for the most part.

So it seems to me that Morgan may feel her parents are overreacting. At some points Mom mentions that Morgan is so afraid that she broke out in a rash. Then other times, she doesn't even seem to want to talk about it. So I'm wondering what she was telling her friends. Was she telling them how scared she was? Or was she telling them that her parents are paranoid? Was she journaling about it?

I really would love to get some first-hand info on Morgan's state of mind, not just through the eyes of Mom.

We don't know, it would have been nice, but it is not to be - obviously. Unless any of her friends care to speak out about it that is.

 

[alwaysonmymind]

Does anyone know if a vandalism report was made regarding the car keying incident?
Most college campuses have surveillance cameras around campus and parking lots. I've searched and couldn't find anything on CMC. Anyone local with information?

Thanks!
OT/ Dina Lohan is a mess on Dr. Phil :what:

 

[Cazzie]

I really don't like the questioning of what the parents did when. or what anyone else would have done...all is hindsight. Plus never having been in their shoes.

ARGH.

Where is the compassion? (can't link it but What's So Wrong about Peace, Love and Understanding?...Elvis Costello)

 

[alwaysonmymind]

A suspect could have been identified if a report was made to the college, and security cameras were in place. This is why I'm asking if a report was made.

 

[JBean]

100% completely OT But- please read.

We CAN make a difference click here

 

[polly1]

I wonder what the mom felt immediately, when she saw Morgan dead? If I was a mom whose daughter was being stalked and found my daughter dead, I would immediately wonder how she died.
Did the mom think she was murdered right then?
Did she think Morgan committed suicide?
I would think either one would have crossed her mind. I would think she would want answers immediately. To cremate Morgan doesn't make sense if the mom wanted answers. And she said Morgan wanted to be cremated. Why would a 20 year old say she wants to be cremated?
These things confuse me.

 

[Kateinfl]

Hi everyone...i've come here from Ivy's case......i've got a lot of catching up to do...but hopefully i'll be able to help with some posts after my reading.

 

[Cazzie]

I wonder what the mom felt immediately, when she saw Morgan dead? If I was a mom whose daughter was being stalked and found my daughter dead, I would immediately wonder how she died.
Did the mom think she was murdered right then?
Did she think Morgan committed suicide?
I would think either one would have crossed her mind. I would think she would want answers immediately. To cremate Morgan doesn't make sense if the mom wanted answers. And she said Morgan wanted to be cremated. Why would a 20 year old say she wants to be cremated?
These things confuse me.

? Why not? Perhaps they had a family discussion, or it was an impromptu comment?

I guess you can ask her (on the blog).

it is easy for me to imagine that family members (even friends) would make their wishes known, even if not formally put into legal documents. JMO.

 

[gitana1]

I really don't like the questioning of what the parents did when. or what anyone else would have done...all is hindsight. Plus never having been in their shoes.

ARGH.

Where is the compassion? (can't link it but What's So Wrong about Peace, Love and Understanding?...Elvis Costello)

Hey, I am VERY compassionate towards the Ingrams - towards anyone who has suffered a horrible loss for that matter. Towards anyone who has suffered, period, in fact.

We are not here bashing the Ingrams for not doing more, or blaming them for their daughter's death/murder, etc. Everyone in hindsight can find a thousand things they could have, would have, should have done in such a circumstance.

The problem is we have a position taken by a mom that is opposite from the position of the authorities and that has several serious holes, inconsistencies, implausibilities that create questions.

The actions or inactions of the Morgans are being examined in light of that, not to state they were negligent, or stupid or caused Morgan's death to happen. They are being examined to see if perception in grief may differ from perception pre-grief, for example.

Not only do I not believe that the Ingrams were negligent, etc., but I would never dare make such an accusation against parents grieving the death of their darling child.

I wonder what the mom felt immediately, when she saw Morgan dead? If I was a mom whose daughter was being stalked and found my daughter dead, I would immediately wonder how she died.
Did the mom think she was murdered right then?
Did she think Morgan committed suicide?
I would think either one would have crossed her mind. I would think she would want answers immediately. To cremate Morgan doesn't make sense if the mom wanted answers. And she said Morgan wanted to be cremated. Why would a 20 year old say she wants to be cremated?
These things confuse me.

“I knew in my heart that she had been murdered,” Toni Ingram said last week, describing the morning she discovered her daughter's lifeless body. http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20120907/NEWS/120909901

BBM.

 

[SyraKelly]

Can someone please tell me what side the neighbor"s house that were not home & the chair being moved in on...if I am facing their house..left or right?
TIA

 

[Lera213]

I am like Morgan in that I do not like to take pills and that Do Not is very strong. Even taking my tiny thyroid pill each morning is difficult for me. I gag, feel sick, and I just don't like anything going in my body. Morgan was like this I believe.

I don't care how depressed or suicidal I would be but taking a bunch of pills would be the last way I would kill myself. It is hard enough to swallow a tiny pill, after much trial and able to take 3 pills lets say, no way, I would be done..couldn't do another one...I would be throwing up like mad.

There are people like me out there and a lot of us too.