CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #3

[rollinginit]

It's actually more accurate to look at concentrations from others who overdosed on amitriptyline and compare their values to Morgan's. In the paper I provided to Herding, the patients took overdoses of 1000 to 5000 mg, and the maximum value recorded for ami was about half of Morgan's value (4400 ng/mL).

Source:
Bengt-Ake Hulen, et al. AMITRIPTYLINE AND AMITRIPTYLINE METABOLITES IN BLOOD AND CEREBROSPINAL FLUID FOLLOWING HUMAN OVERDOSE. CLINICAL TOXICOLOGY, 30(2), 181-201 (1992). (sorry only the abstract is free online.)

I don't know how many pills Morgan would have had to have taken to get up to 7900, but the ballpark of 100 pills (2500 mg) seems a fair conservative guesstimate considering that is in the midrange of the article I used (which still was much lower exposure than what Morgan had).

The point of estimating at all was it was too many pills to end up with no pill fragments in her stomach. Even if one were to postulate that she obtained higher dose pills clandestinely, you should remember that the larger the mg pill strength, the larger the pill itself....there is more of the inert excipients in the higher strength pills...very bulky and nothing left behind of the pill fragments.

BBM....can vomiting cause there not to be any pill fragments? Just wondering.

 

[21merc7]

I really meant no snark in my post at all. Sorry if it sounded that way.

I was just trying to understand. I'm not sure there is anyway she could post that will convince people if they already have their mind set to discount her. (not saying you are) Mom did say in the interview that she didn't feel comfortable making the videos public, but she did seem up to the idea of showing a few people (I'm assuming MODS) the videos.

IMO, when I listened to mom, she just sounds like somebody that has had all these things scattered in her head and she's trying to put them all together in a nice order. JMO

Again, I am sorry about the post. I hope you didn't take it wrong b/c that was not my intent.

No apology necessary, I took no offense.

I'm not discounting the blog or putting mom down in anyway. I know it must be hard for her. What I think we are trying to do is help her to focus, to get the facts together as she is going to need them. I understand her mind must be looking at everything under a microscope, and everything we contribute only distracts from the facts in her mind. She will need only the facts, in order of incident, not suggestions or hopefuls, if she wants the case to go anywhere. Regardless of what we here want.

Videos, I have no problem with them not being public. As I said earlier, she needs to copy them to cd/dvd, may help to ask what format/program (usually windows media player is fine, but ask first) before taken to anyone official.

Don't worry, I am not offended. If we don't say what we are thinking, we can't see our own mistakes or loopholes. Any and all comments, suggestions, additions, subtractions, you name it are always welcome to me, and how I learn. :blowkiss:

P.S. I seem to lack diplomacy, not good at typing words, and getting things out right, so I also meant no offense.

 

[21merc7]

I must admit I enjoy reading the medical posts, but they are still over my head. :blushing::blushing::blushing:

 

[concernedmother]

I believe I's have evidence there was a stalker. we know of one image and they claim there are many more which I have no reason not to believe. These images arent clear enough to identify this stalker.
Back to murder. What the stalker could have done isnt going to get this case reopened. He could have entered the sliding door, he could have been on the roof, he could have done many things. Facts are needed. The best way for the I's are to collect all the documentation they can and have an expert look over them. What they truly need is a witness to come forward that may have been privy to conversations from the perp(s). Right now I see no evidence that nails the identity of the stalker. Id love to see this case reopened but I think they are in for a tough battle getting it done.

 

[twinkiesmom]

It was AbbyR and I agree with you both. When everything is just too much to bother with, other than posting to a blog, you subconsciously already know you are not accepting the truth. I also think the blog has now just become everything we post as ideas of ways it could be, rather than anything that ever did happen. That seems to now be lost.

But Dr. Doberson has validated their concerns by calling the death unexplained...it's not just us yahoos out on the internet.

 

[twinkiesmom]

BBM....can vomiting cause there not to be any pill fragments? Just wondering.

Yes, but we haven't heard of vomit on the bedsheets, and vomiting a significant number of pills would have led to a lower ami concentration.

 

[bdawk20]

I just got caught up on reading the blog. I am unsure what to think here. Someone posted earlier about feeling like we' re on a Murder Mystery cruise, and I totally feel that analogy. The way M's mom writes about her doesn't give me the feeling she would have committed suicide, but I also realize that she is writing from the perspective that she was murdered. An OD just seems like such an unusual way for a stalker to kill someone. Generally stalkers enjoy terrorizing their victims on some level, so this method of murder seems so.....odd, and I can't see the motive. Then again, I can't figure the motive for a stalking, period....as far as it being a romantic fixation or something like that. I also keep wondering about her being so scared that she was sleeping in a closet, but not too scared to be out and come home after dark...granted, I've never been stalked, but I would feel very prone outside after dark, pepper spray or not.

 

[21merc7]

But Dr. Doberson has validated their concerns by calling the death unexplained...it's not just us yahoos out on the internet.

No one said anything about yahoos on the internet.

She needs all of the info, from all the doctors involved, and all the other info to get the case re-oponed.

Unexplained death can mean any number of things. Legally, this can be argued that it was: an example an aneurysm - by the opposing side since this doctor did not perform the autopsy.

That is why it is imperative that all documents are gathered.

 

[concernedmother]

The one thing that seems strange to me is the missing jewelry. I can see why LE isnt going to let anyone come in and look at the stolen jewelry. Its evidence! Have the I's even now turned in a list of what they are missing with a description to LE?

 

[rollinginit]

I believe I's have evidence there was a stalker. we know of one image and they claim there are many more which I have no reason not to believe. These images arent clear enough to identify this stalker.
Back to murder. What the stalker could have done isnt going to get this case reopened. He could have entered the sliding door, he could have been on the roof, he could have done many things. Facts are needed. The best way for the I's are to collect all the documentation they can and have an expert look over them. What they truly need is a witness to come forward that may have been privy to conversations from the perp(s). Right now I see no evidence that nails the identity of the stalker. Id love to see this case reopened but I think they are in for a tough battle getting it done.

Oh. speaking of that.......On the Morgan's stalking facebook page....I guess a really good tip came in to the Ingrams last night. They made a post thanking that person for their information.
http://www.facebook.com/morgansstalking

 

[21merc7]

The one thing that seems strange to me is the missing jewelry. I can see why LE isnt going to let anyone come in and look at the stolen jewelry. Its evidence! Have the I's even now turned in a list of what they are missing with a description to LE?

LE always asks for a description, drawing, preferably a photo of jewelry. Anyone can see a lovely and valuable piece of jewelry and say, oh yes that is mine! Then evidence is gone, off to be sold somewhere again or to be stolen again, right from under their nose!

 

[concernedmother]

Oh. speaking of that.......On the Morgan's stalking facebook page....I guess a really good tip came in to the Ingrams last night. They made a post thanking that person for their information.
http://www.facebook.com/morgansstalking

Hopefully this blog will bring people forth.

 

[concernedmother]

LE always asks for a description, drawing, preferably a photo of jewelry. Anyone can see a lovely and valuable piece of jewelry and say, oh yes that is mine! Then evidence is gone, off to be sold somewhere again or to be stolen again, right from under their nose!

If I had diamonds missing I would at been at the police station very very early. lol

 

[Marshmallow]

I really meant no snark in my post at all. Sorry if it sounded that way.

I was just trying to understand. I'm not sure there is anyway she could post that will convince people if they already have their mind set to discount her. (not saying you are) Mom did say in the interview that she didn't feel comfortable making the videos public, but she did seem up to the idea of showing a few people (I'm assuming MODS) the videos.

IMO, when I listened to mom, she just sounds like somebody that has had all these things scattered in her head and she's trying to put them all together in a nice order. JMO

Again, I am sorry about the post. I hope you didn't take it wrong b/c that was not my intent.

I may be one of those who appear to have my mind closed but it only appears that way because of my posts. I started out with mind wide open and fully on board but as I've gone along too many inconsistancies have shown themselves. Too many questions avoided or brushed off. Too many accusations with no actual proof. But as I've tried very hard to say, I have compassion, concern and hope for these parents. Never once have I klost sight of their pain and their suffering. I just have begun to think they need a bad guy to blame more than they have proof of one. It's easier to cope when you have an enemy to blame and things that may not fit may be wet to fit.
I say 'wet to fit' because someone used a puzzle and it's pieces as an example and my oldest grew frustrated with a puzzle once and put a piece into his mouth to wet it enough to change it's shape to fit where he wanted it to go. I think without truely realizing it, these parents may be wetting pieces of the puzzle to fit.

 

[rollinginit]

I must admit I enjoy reading the medical posts, but they are still over my head. :blushing::blushing::blushing:

no kidding. That wiki article that was posted a few pages back was shocking as heck.

It's almost election time.....this would be the prefect time for the parents to find somebody. Maybe if somebody is running against the long time people in that town.......uh, their opponent might be a good person to take your information to.

 

[21merc7]

I just got around to reading the wiki on the drug cocktail. Holy Moly! I had no idea that things like that would be on wiki!

 

[laurafairlie]

I agree, we need to see this video. And I wish she'd have given up a flyer to see as well. It bothers me that she says she cannot show us one.

She cannot show us one because she hasn't seen it herself. She was told about it by the detective investigating the felony stalking case.

 

[nursebeeme]

Delivery of 2.5-3 g of drug through a transdermal patch isnt going to happen, it is not practical. Whatever she ingested must have been oral for that amount. Not to mention that it would have taken a considerable length of time to absorb so much drug through that route - again not consistent with an acute response. Systemic delivery through transdermal absorbtion is poor compared to oral. The main advantage of transdermal delivery is that you can do it over a prolonged period.

You are assuming that she was using her old supply of the drug. It is more likely that she got the drug from another source. She may have been using the higher strength tablets (possibly not realizing that they were in fact a different strength). Alternatively, she may have been using the pure compound (FYI, it costs about $7.50 per gram according to drugbank.ca). Drinking a solution of 2-3 g isn't that hard since it would dissolve in a glass of water. And if you didn't know that the usual tablet is mostly other stuff you could quickly be in a whole lot of trouble, since you would be taking a lot more than you would think you were taking. Especially if you were used to using the 10 mg tablets for example, which I assume is the form she would have been using as a child. The commercial tablet sizes are available from 10 mg doses all the way up to 150 mg. It is also available in solution form, which is used for injection but I guess someone could swallow as well.

Other points, absorbtion is relatively fast, with maximum uptake at about 2 hours. She was probably alive a lot longer than 30 minutes after taking it, otherwise they would have found it in her stomach as well. The 30 minutes is probably your estimated survival time at that drug level, not how long it takes to achieve that level.

just jumping off your post as a reminder: if you are posting as a professional nurse or medical professional on medications, etc you must be verified by administration before posting (see below link). Additionally if you are not a medical professional and are posting this sort of info from a source that is fine but you must link to that source.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=167277"]Rules Verification Process for Professional or Insider Posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Kateinfl]

Last night i got a chance to listen to the show on Websleuths radio with Morgon's mom as a guest. It was recorded last Sunday. I'll have to admit after listening to the show and her mom talk.....it was diff than reading the blogs on facebook..day by day. When i read all of her posts....maybe it was the writing..but i thought...what the heck....noises, lights going on and off, cameras breaking, police called every other minute, Morgon in the closet, no stalker found...escaping everyone....i had my doubts. But after listening to her mom....and not reading..it sounded more normal. I think in her posts, she is just writing everything that happened all at once...all the crazy stuff..and thats what we are seeing. Listening to her talk is much diff....and sounds more credible to me. JMO

 

[concernedmother]

Those houses look really close together. They had neighbors on both sides of their house. The other neighbor they communicated with is across the street. Wonder if the neighbors on the sides of them ever saw anything?