CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #3

[Kateinfl]

I wonder why two dogs in the house wouldn't bark at a stranger in the house? I know Morgan's mom said the night she died, they were out and the dogs were locked up..and the stalker could have come in and hid until they got home. But after getting home..i'm sure they would have let the dogs back out...wouldn't they bark at someone hideing in the house?

 

[Tugela]

I think it is worth pointing out that Morgan's earlier medical history, according to this report prepared for the family, included the possibility of intermittant porphyria. Among the symptoms she was reported to have had included "cognitive disorders". If you want to know what cognitive disorders are, read [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_disorder"]Cognitive disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]. In the context of porphyria this would mean delusional and paranoid behaviour. Depression is also associated with porphyria. If she was prescribed amytriptyline (for depression) and they considered porphyria, then those are the symtoms she would have been showing.

So, there is this debate about this stalker. But, even though the family knew about this stalker for quite some time, and presumably took steps to protect and/or monitor the home, they never actually saw him/her, or obtained conclusive evidence. We need to consider the possibility that this stalker is not real, but rather a recurrence of Morgan's previous condition. To be real and to commit a stealth murder in her bedroom, this stalker would have had to have intimate knowledge of the home and all the precautions they were taking to be able to evade detection, and that does not seem realistic. The only way for that to be possible is if the stalker either lived in the house or was very closely associated with the family, it doesn't seem plausible otherwise.

Regarding Morgan's death itself. The primary cause of death was an overdose of a drug that she had previously been prescribed and which she apparently actually had. This pretty much rules murder out IMO since no one outside the immediate family would know those sorts of details, and it would be mind boggling for a stranger to choose such a bizarre method of murder through sheer coincidence. The other option suggested was suicide. The family thinks this cannot be, but considering her past medical record and the sorts of drugs she had previously been prescribed (and apparently still had) it is absolutely a real possibility. Lastly there is another option that most people don't seem to be considering, that involves neither murder nor suicide. She may very well have been self-medicating (this is very common in the internet age) and accidently overdosed herself.

 

[deca]

Can anyone recap about the weird writing on the lawn and what it was? I was out all day and must have missed any discussion.

Another helpful poster offered the suggestion that "putu" was a common first name in Korea and a the people that lived there had a korean last name.
Some people mentioned that "putu" has is a slang term.
Many other posters believed the word was actually "mind".

I think the general consensus is that it probably isn't relevant to the case. Well, at least I don't believe it is relevant.

I think it is like MayraMM said: someone knew Google earth was going to be "snapping photos" and just wanted to have fun.

 

[MayraMM]

She may very well have been self-medicating (this is very common in the internet age) and accidently overdosed herself.

It was considered in part 1 of this thread, but then we saw the the cocktail of medication in her system and the amounts detected, and it couldn't have been an accident.

The porphyria was ruled out once they discovered the CO poisoning, and could easily have been checked for. We don't have the report from UCLA, but I bet they checked a porphyrin level.

 

[marie-chantal]

Another helpful poster offered the suggestion that "putu" was a common first name in Korea and a the people that lived there had a korean last name.
Some people mentioned that "putu" has is a slang term.
Many other posters believed the word was actually "mind".

I think the general consensus is that it probably isn't relevant to the case. Well, at least I don't believe it is relevant.

I think it is like MayraMM said: someone knew Google earth was going to be "snapping photos" and just wanted to have fun.

Putu is also a fairly common name in Indonesia. I agree with you that it's probably not relevant.

Now, there is a Spanish word, puta, which means the same thing as the "b" word in English. Maybe they misspelled it?

 

[MelissaDawn]

It was considered in part 1 of this thread, but then we saw the the cocktail of medication in her system and the amounts detected, and it couldn't have been an accident.

The porphyria was ruled out once they discovered the CO poisoning, and could easily have been checked for. We don't have the report from UCLA, but I bet they checked a porphyrin level.

If something else that fits the symptoms at the time is found, such as the CO poisoning, they may not have checked a porphyrin level if treatment was working. That doesn't necessarily mean she didn't have AIP. If after treating the CO poisoning the symptoms still recurred then AIP, since already listed as a differential diagnosis, would be put back on the list and tested for.

Not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but wasn't she put on the amitriptyline from age 12 to 18? That seems like an awful long time to be on that medication for CO poisoning. I had a friend in a similar situation, thought his depression was getting worse but after a few months discovered it was CO poisoning. He was out of the house each day for his job just long enough to not end up dead from it, but he was ill. They didn't actually treat his CO poisoning at all, he just fixed the leak and went from there. It sounds to me like there may still have been an underlying issue, possibly AIP or possibly something else, that had not yet been figured out.

 

[Tugela]

It was considered in part 1 of this thread, but then we saw the the cocktail of medication in her system and the amounts detected, and it couldn't have been an accident.

The porphyria was ruled out once they discovered the CO poisoning, and could easily have been checked for. We don't have the report from UCLA, but I bet they checked a porphyrin level.

People who self medicate can take all sorts of unorthodox drug cocktails, depending on what they believe will work. They are not doctors or pharmcists, so they can come up with just about anything.

She was treated for possible CO poisoning, it was not shown that she actually had CO exposure.

The prophyria diagnosis was considered, but according to the report they didn't actually make a determination. Probably because it was intermittant. But, that is irrelevant, it doesn't matter if she had porphyria or not, rather it is the symptoms associated with that disease which are relevant (which she presumably had, otherwise they would not have considered it).

 

[polly1]

OK. We need answers to some hard questions. Was there any signs of a struggle in Morgans room? Did she have any defense wounds, and bruising, any puncture marks? Was there any pill bottles in her room, any in her bathroom? If so was there any missing pills?Were her clothes showing any signs of being rearranged, for example bottom not pulled completely up on her. Was the trash in the house checked that night inside the house for contents?Who was the very last person with Morgan before she came home? Who was she texting in the dark? Any clues in that conversation? Any more hard questions anyone can think of? Lets get them out there.

This is so important because it will determine if the Ingrams can pursue the felony stalking case because it resulted in murder. Or, if Morgan tragically took or lost her life for any number of reasons other than murder. It's essential to get hard evidence, from the Ingrams and the LE. What about the sheets and Morgan's clothing that night? Was she wearing sleepwear? Street clothes? Did she look at peace? Disheveled? If the mom thought she was murdered right away, what EVIDENCE made her think that? Thank you, because we do need hard evidence and hard questions answered by both the Ingrams and the LE.

 

[lillygator]

I don't understand why she slept in the closet. Seems a little over reacting. Why not sleep in bed with mom and let her father take her room..while this was going on.

Mom said on the interview she was going to speed up the telling of her story so people would have all the facts to work with, but so far we haven't received anything new. I really wish we had something to work with. I hope she goes down and picks up the copies of the police reports, ME reports, first responders call sheets, and posts them so we can have something concrete to work with. She has the right to those documents, so whether she posts them or not, I hope she goes and gets them.

we have nothing to work with,,,her word. <modsnipped the snark>

I'm still not clear on the hitting the cam. The only image I have seen could be anything. It could be pine needles for all I know. I am guessing I am not looking at the right image? For all we know M went out there to move the cam, if it was moved at all. Maybe she didn't like it for her own reasons. I just don't know on that one.

<mod snipped the comment> i see no hitting of the camera i see a line light,,,,,no hand no person no anything just like no proof of a stalker

You are not alone-I believe the parents to!

really? why? <modsnipped the personal comment>

That picture showed nothing to me but a tree blowing in the wind. I saw nothing in that photo at all to evidence that someone had smacked it or hit it or that anything even bumped it. I'm actually very confused by all the statements saying it shows someone hitting the camera.

nothing to prove a person there....

<modsnipped: not necessary>

No-She said that is what Morgan wanted,but she regretted doing it

interesting...going on mom's initial reaction.......

























my firm belief., morgan commited suicide,mom cannot accept it yet, makes sense dad and bro don't weigh in, where are all the "friends" posting, but now mom is alienating and naming people...mom still doesn't answer pointed questions, she NEVER got police reports etc

 

[MayraMM]

People who self medicate can take all sorts of unorthodox drug cocktails, depending on what they believe will work. They are not doctors or pharmcists, so they can come up with just about anything.

She was treated for possible CO poisoning, it was not shown that she actually had CO exposure.

The prophyria diagnosis was considered, but according to the report they didn't actually make a determination. Probably because it was intermittant. But, that is irrelevant, it doesn't matter if she had porphyria or not, rather it is the symptoms associated with that disease which are relevant (which she presumably had, otherwise they would not have considered it).

From what I understand, the ami was for the stomach pain (regardless of the cause). It didn't work too well at it's original dose, so the doctor upped it. That seemed to do the trick. M herself stopped taking it when she turned 18.

BTW, someone at some point mentioned abdominal migraines, but I can't remember who it was or the source.

 

[JBean]

lillygator- Morgan's father is a member here and has answered some of our questions.

TO all:
As always here on WS, you are welcome to challenge the information but always be careful not to cross the line of bashing the family. Its a fine line but we all should take care not to cross.
Thanks

 

[Tugela]

One more thing, Flexiril (the other drug found in her system) is under development for the management of fibromylagia, a condition which shows some commonalities with her childhood problems. So she could very well have been self medicating.

 

[polly1]

http://www.postindependent.com/article/20120901/VALLEYNEWS/120839978

This, to me, is both concerning and telling, and makes my mind wander down a different path...

I think that Mom's theory of murder is entirely based in her conviction that Morgan would not commit suicide. If suicide is not considered a possibility, and M. did not die of natural causes, obviously the only possibility left is 'murder'. That seems like it was the only basis of her 'knowing' M. was murdered the first time she saw her.

But how to prove murder, when there is no evidence of a murder?
You have to work around that lack of evidence. (Or as someone earlier said, make the pieces fit the puzzle)

Hence, post after post design an elaborate theory of how and why someone could murder someone without leaving any clues. The lack of evidence itself becomes evidence of a super stealthy and diabolical stalker.

The weakest parts of the theory are when we get down to the obvious questions, like who would stalk Morgan? (there are accusations, but hardly any evidence that this person had any kind of relationship with her, let alone that he stalked her) Why would he kill her? (no motive) Why would he kill her at home with her family in the house, using her own medication? How could he do this and get away with it?

And the explanation for all of these questions too, becomes that he is a stalker. A super-stalker. So we come full circle in that no evidence is the evidence of this crime.

There are lots of references to actual 'evidence' of stalking and murder - but we haven't actually seen it (police and autopsy reports, stolen jewelry, videos). But what exactly are these evidence of? The people who have seen and produced them don't seem to consider any of this evidence of stalking or murder. But it is explained that they are either inept, corrupt, or both.

So far, the most convincing evidence are words that are repeated like "date rape drugs" and "felony stalking case" which assure us that there has got to be evidence of... something. But these latest posts are just more of the same - explaining what isn't there.

I don't think the Ingrams are being dishonest. I think they truly believe everything they are writing. I'm just seriously beginning to wonder if the blog could actually be telling a very different story, of a young woman's struggle with depression and possibly mental illness and a caring, loving family who believe, like most people, that just about all problems can be identified and fixed.

What if there was no stalker. (I'm not saying there wasn't, but just hypothetically)-- The story would be the same. Parents struggling to protect their daughter against something real and scary and dark that they knew was there, but could never actually see or name, and that they couldn't protect her from, no matter how hard they tried.

At least if there is a stalker, the terrifying experience can be named. A person can held responsible and punished. If that's the case, I hope we find more evidence and they are.

Just some thoughts on this really sad and confusing story.

All very good points. It could also be the story of a family who was terrorized and the stalker-indirectly-is responsible for Morgan's death. Perhaps it could be a civil case.

 

[concernedmother]

If I's got an attorney wouldnt LE ME etc have to let them review all the records on this case?

 

[concernedmother]

All very good points. It could also be the story of a family who was terrorized and the stalker-indirectly-is responsible for Morgan's death. Perhaps it could be a civil case.

Could they file a wrongful death suit against the perp?

 

[JBean]

From what I understand, the ami was for the stomach pain (regardless of the cause). It didn't work too well at it's original dose, so the doctor upped it. That seemed to do the trick. M herself stopped taking it when she turned 18.

BTW, someone at some point mentioned abdominal migraines, but I can't remember who it was or the source.

the abdominal migraines are mentioned in Dobersons report

 

[Tugela]

From what I understand, the ami was for the stomach pain (regardless of the cause). It didn't work too well at it's original dose, so the doctor upped it. That seemed to do the trick. M herself stopped taking it when she turned 18.

BTW, someone at some point mentioned abdominal migraines, but I can't remember who it was or the source.

It is an anti-depressant, but yes, I see it is also used for some sorts of pain management. Similar to Flexiril as it turns out. Coincidence? That pretty much settles it then IMO, I think she probably ODed self medicating.

 

[twinkiesmom]

<modsnip>

Morgan was on a low dose of amitriptyline for migraine and stomach symptoms (abdominal migraine) from the CO poisoning at age 12 that she discontinued 2 years before her death. She had a massive amount of amitriptyline in her system at autopsy....reportedly among the largest values recorded. The low dose old supply of pills would not have accounted for the amount of drug in her system at death...she would have had to have swallowed 100 25 mg ami pills...with none of the pill fragments found in her stomach. The other two drugs, flexoril (muscle relaxant) and a sedative have been characterized by some as potential date rape drugs. These were not found in the home.

Nortriptyline is the active metabolite of amitriptyline. Every article on amitriptyline overdose has patients with both amitriptyline and a lesser amount of nortriptyline in their systems. The fact that her amitriptyline more than doubled the nortriptyline means that it was an acute overdose and not chronic dosing. This actually validates what mom has told us that she was not currently taking ami at the time of her death.

There were no bottles, wrappers, syringes, mixing materials, etc. found for these drugs with Morgan's body despite the fact that the consultant pathologist believed her death was rapid (within 30 minutes). Cause of death was ami overdose, but no ami pill fragments in her stomach (http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=920).

When I did some calculations on the last thread, her dose of ami would be in the ballpark of 20 or more of the largest pills manufactured (150 mg). Her dose exceeded the lethal dose by several fold and her death was reportedly rapid, so where are the pill fragments? This drug would have actually slowed down the digestive system, so any suicide theory really needs to explain this.

The family was contacted by two veterinarians in the area who said they used to keep transdermal patches for amitriptyline for horses unsecured in their facilities but would now be securing them.

She absolutely did not swallow a few pills with a glass of water and go to sleep.:banghead:

It's easy to say someone committed suicide, but not easy to explain her lab results. <modsnip>

Here's info from the blog:
http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1137

 

[gitana1]

I wonder why two dogs in the house wouldn't bark at a stranger in the house? I know Morgan's mom said the night she died, they were out and the dogs were locked up..and the stalker could have come in and hid until they got home. But after getting home..i'm sure they would have let the dogs back out...wouldn't they bark at someone hideing in the house?

Or how about repeatedly go where the guy was hiding and sniff or whine?

Another helpful poster offered the suggestion that "putu" was a common first name in Korea and a the people that lived there had a korean last name.
Some people mentioned that "putu" has is a slang term.
Many other posters believed the word was actually "mind".

I think the general consensus is that it probably isn't relevant to the case. Well, at least I don't believe it is relevant.

I think it is like MayraMM said: someone knew Google earth was going to be "snapping photos" and just wanted to have fun.

Putu is also a fairly common name in Indonesia. I agree with you that it's probably not relevant.

Now, there is a Spanish word, puta, which means the same thing as the "b" word in English. Maybe they misspelled it?

The words were in the backyard of the house next door, a house the mother, in blog comments, did not associate with a potential stalking suspect.

If I's got an attorney wouldnt LE ME etc have to let them review all the records on this case?

They do not need an attorney for that. Just go down there, pay a few (about $25.00) and get every police report.

Any party to a call for service/police report is entitled to a copy.

Mom's statement, two years after her daughter's death, about obtaining police reports, was something to the effect of, "Well, I don't think they like us very much right now."

The family hasn't event tried to get those reports. I just do not understand why, especially when LE is blatantly contradicting them, saying no evidence of stalking was found.

 

[lillygator]

lillygator- Morgan's father is a member here and has answered some of our questions.

TO all:
As always here on WS, you are welcome to challenge the information but always be careful not to cross the line of bashing the family. Its a fine line but we all should take care not to cross.
Thanks

i know he is a member....and i hope i never crossed lines, we all have questions that are unanswered