CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #3

[lillygator]

Could they file a wrongful death suit against the perp?

really??
there is no perp.

 

[concernedmother]

Directly or indirectly I think the stalker caused her death.
I thought the picture that T posted when she got her hair done M looked bad. Stress or something was wearing her down.

 

[polly1]

Could they file a wrongful death suit against the perp?

I think they can, if they can prove who the stalker is, without a doubt, and then again, they need solid evidence for that. But it would be a wrongful death. Other cases have been based on that and some of those cases have been won.

 

[JBean]

i know he is a member....and i hope i never crossed lines, we all have questions that are unanswered

You said he has not weighed in and he has. I concur about the unanswered questions. ETA- mentioning that he was a member was unrelated to the reminder about family bashing but I see how that was poorly structured on my part. I put the space there to show that but not sure it was effective.


Also, the FD did source the CO leak so it is possible that she had CO poisoning. What I mean is was not just random. KWIM?

 

[gitana1]

<modsnip>

Morgan was on a low dose of amitriptyline for migraine and stomach symptoms (abdominal migraine) from the CO poisoning at age 12 that she discontinued 2 years before her death. She had a massive amount of amitriptyline in her system at autopsy....reportedly among the largest values recorded. The low dose old supply of pills would not have accounted for the amount of drug in her system at death...she would have had to have swallowed 100 25 mg ami pills...with none of the pill fragments found in her stomach. The other two drugs, flexoril (muscle relaxant) and a sedative have been characterized by some as potential date rape drugs. These were not found in the home.

Nortriptyline is the active metabolite of amitriptyline. Every article on amitriptyline overdose has patients with both amitriptyline and a lesser amount of nortriptyline in their systems. The fact that her amitriptyline more than doubled the nortriptyline means that it was an acute overdose and not chronic dosing. This actually validates what mom has told us that she was not currently taking ami at the time of her death.

There were no bottles, wrappers, syringes, mixing materials, etc. found for these drugs with Morgan's body despite the fact that the consultant pathologist believed her death was rapid (within 30 minutes). Cause of death was ami overdose, but no ami pill fragments in her stomach (http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=920).

When I did some calculations on the last thread, her dose of ami would be in the ballpark of 20 or more of the largest pills manufactured (150 mg). Her dose exceeded the lethal dose by several fold and her death was reportedly rapid, so where are the pill fragments? This drug would have actually slowed down the digestive system, so any suicide theory really needs to explain this.

The family was contacted by two veterinarians in the area who said they used to keep transdermal patches for amitriptyline for horses unsecured in their facilities but would now be securing them.

She absolutely did not swallow a few pills with a glass of water and go to sleep.:banghead:

It's easy to say someone committed suicide, but not easy to explain her lab results. <modsnip>

Here's info from the blog:
http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1137

Hmm. What lab results? The ones described in Dr. Doberson's letter? because nowhere does he say that the level of the drugs was "reportedly among the largest values recorded." Can you link to such a report?

Also, he does not say that she would have had to swallow 100 pills to have the levels seen.

Further, we had several medical professional posters on here debating how many pills one would have to take to reach such levels as seen in Morgan and no consensus was reached at all. You say one thing but others say another, regarding what she would have had to take.

Can you link to a report or MSM article indicating that an independent forensic consultant stated de3ath would have occurred within half an hour?

What sedative?

Also, Dr. Doberson's report states Morgan was last prescribed amitryptiline 1.5 years before her death.

Finally, transdermal patches? So now the intruder/stalker came in, and at gun point made her wear some patches? Wouldn't that leave patch residue? How many patches would she have to wear? And how do we account for the fact that, according to Dr. Doberson, Flexeril was found in her stomach contents? And didn't her dad, who posts here, say Ami. was found in her stomach contents as well?

<modsnip>

Link to the Dr.s report: http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1137

 

[TGIRecovered]

Wow, I am paying attention and I think that if anyone doesn't understand how many pills it would take to equal the milligrams of the drugs found , you might have missed a few pages of posts by Nursebeeme. She is verified as a nurse and her posts were quite clear. HerdingCats is quite knowlegable on the subject as well.

 

[hambirg]

I think it is worth pointing out that Morgan's earlier medical history, according to this report prepared for the family, included the possibility of intermittant porphyria. Among the symptoms she was reported to have had included "cognitive disorders". If you want to know what cognitive disorders are, read Cognitive disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. In the context of porphyria this would mean delusional and paranoid behaviour. Depression is also associated with porphyria. If she was prescribed amytriptyline (for depression) and they considered porphyria, then those are the symtoms she would have been showing.

The mother claims she was given amitriptyline for migraines. And it is not recommended for children for depression. As far as the cognitive disorders, chronic low level carbon monoxide poisoning can cause brain fog and memory loss. . .as well as persistent headaches. Porphyria could have been ruled out with some testing, but I don't know if it ever was. However people with porphyria usually are extremely sensitive to sunlight, developing rashes like this. . .

IMHO, she didn't have porphyria.

So, there is this debate about this stalker. But, even though the family knew about this stalker for quite some time, and presumably took steps to protect and/or monitor the home, they never actually saw him/her, or obtained conclusive evidence. We need to consider the possibility that this stalker is not real, but rather a recurrence of Morgan's previous condition. To be real and to commit a stealth murder in her bedroom, this stalker would have had to have intimate knowledge of the home and all the precautions they were taking to be able to evade detection, and that does not seem realistic. The only way for that to be possible is if the stalker either lived in the house or was very closely associated with the family, it doesn't seem plausible otherwise.

BBM
Of the 16 houses in the development on Coral Drive, 9 of them look to have the same floor plan. Ingram's is one of those 9.

Regarding Morgan's death itself. The primary cause of death was an overdose of a drug that she had previously been prescribed and which she apparently actually had. This pretty much rules murder out IMO since no one outside the immediate family would know those sorts of details, and it would be mind boggling for a stranger to choose such a bizarre method of murder through sheer coincidence. The other option suggested was suicide. The family thinks this cannot be, but considering her past medical record and the sorts of drugs she had previously been prescribed (and apparently still had) it is absolutely a real possibility. Lastly there is another option that most people don't seem to be considering, that involves neither murder nor suicide. She may very well have been self-medicating (this is very common in the internet age) and accidently overdosed herself.

Morgan had 10mg pills. While there is some variances in how people metabolize amitriptyline, we know she had a very high blood level, almost twice as the most acute cases of overdose. The highest amount taken I found in a case study was 3000mg, so let's go with that (though I think Morgan had more). At 10mg per pill that would be 300 pills. I think at that quantity they would have found debris in her digestive system, because the very nature of the OD slows digestion. So I don't think there is anyway Morgan OD'd on her own prescription. I don't think she could have snuck that amount from somebody else's medicine cabinet without it going noticed. Now whether someone could have given her a huge amount or she could have somehow acquired a veterinary dosage herself, idk. I'm inclined to think it had to be an injection. Whether she did this herself or somebody did this to her, I feel very confident that it wasn't an accidental overdose.

My comments about in red.

MOO

 

[MelissaDawn]

Wow, I am paying attention and I think that if anyone doesn't understand how many pills it would take to equal the milligrams of the drugs found , you might have missed a few pages of posts by Nursebeme. She is verified as a nurse and her posts were quite clear. HeardingCats is quite knowlegable on the subject as well.

According to multiple searches for "amitriptyline overdose", ingestion of 750 mg by an adult may result in severe toxicity (height/weight/metabolism would have to be factored in per case), 750 mg divided by 25 mg would equal 30 pills. That's actually not a whole lot of pills, IMO, when considering suicidal overdose. Also, amitriptyline is rapidly absorbed and metabolized.

Another thing I discovered was that amitriptyline is a white, odorless, crystalline compound which is freely soluble in water. The possibility of opening up or crushing the pills and adding them to a glass of water still remains.

These are the links I used to find the above information: http://www.rxlist.com/elavil-drug/clinical-pharmacology.htm
http://www.mhra.gov.uk/Howweregulat...nericoverdosesections/Amitriptyline/index.htm
http://www.rxlist.com/elavil-drug.htm

I also stumbled across this link: http://ash2.wikkii.com/wiki/Amitriptyline_Cocktail

That one is kind of scary, it's basically a how-to on overdosing with amitriptyline.

 

[Herding Cats]

<modsnip>

Morgan was on a low dose of amitriptyline for migraine and stomach symptoms (abdominal migraine) from the CO poisoning at age 12 that she discontinued 2 years before her death. She had a massive amount of amitriptyline in her system at autopsy....reportedly among the largest values recorded. The low dose old supply of pills would not have accounted for the amount of drug in her system at death...she would have had to have swallowed 100 25 mg ami pills...with none of the pill fragments found in her stomach. The other two drugs, flexoril (muscle relaxant) and a sedative have been characterized by some as potential date rape drugs. These were not found in the home.

Nortriptyline is the active metabolite of amitriptyline. Every article on amitriptyline overdose has patients with both amitriptyline and a lesser amount of nortriptyline in their systems. The fact that her amitriptyline more than doubled the nortriptyline means that it was an acute overdose and not chronic dosing. This actually validates what mom has told us that she was not currently taking ami at the time of her death.

There were no bottles, wrappers, syringes, mixing materials, etc. found for these drugs with Morgan's body despite the fact that the consultant pathologist believed her death was rapid (within 30 minutes). Cause of death was ami overdose, but no ami pill fragments in her stomach (http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=920).

When I did some calculations on the last thread, her dose of ami would be in the ballpark of 20 or more of the largest pills manufactured (150 mg). Her dose exceeded the lethal dose by several fold and her death was reportedly rapid, so where are the pill fragments? This drug would have actually slowed down the digestive system, so any suicide theory really needs to explain this.

The family was contacted by two veterinarians in the area who said they used to keep transdermal patches for amitriptyline for horses unsecured in their facilities but would now be securing them.

She absolutely did not swallow a few pills with a glass of water and go to sleep.:banghead:

It's easy to say someone committed suicide, but not easy to explain her lab results. <modsnip>

Here's info from the blog:
http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1137

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

If it were a smaller dose, I'd be more inclined to think of suicide, although I'd still have reservations. Especially since I would at least expect to find pill fragments from the amount taken, you know? The body would have shut down far before the entire amount was absorbed, in my opinion. So there would be residue, or fragments, if pills were swallowed. But for her to have the level she did...no, I can't see that as pills, or even crushed pills. And certainly not over 100 pills. Which, from what I understand, were not in her room or available to her in any event.

But to add in two additional medications, Flexeril and Dalmane, and to have the active metabolite of Dalmane present...and to have fragments of the Flexeril present, tells me that there is a serious issue with the concept of suicide.

Twinkie has done the math. She's shown it to me, and I did the formula needed. I've read the links she provided. She forwarded me a study.

<modsnip>. This was not a "gonna take the whole bottle" kind of thing - at 25 mg, with an average rx of 30 pills, that would be far less than what would be needed to come up with that level. Seriously. The body would have vomited, if not from the amount of pills, then from the taste if they were crushed...

I just can't justify suicide.

I think there are a lot of questions, and I look forward to Toni's answers as she feels appropriate to give them.<modsnip>
<modsnip>

I have to say, this, if nothing else, is a beautiful lesson to *us* armchair quarterbacks...good sleuths though we may be, we always get the info in a particular way. This is a phenomenal experience for us to learn how a crime happens, how LE investigates - or not. How coroners and MEs can screw up, or not. To walk in the victim's family's shoes is an incredibly rare experience.

We know what they knew at the time they knew it...we don't know the answers yet. We don't have a search party to assist. We don't have the "end" yet. And that, if nothing else, is a true test of patience and compassion.

Stalking is a tough, tough crime to prove. I had records and records of calls that my stalker made to me, family, my bosses. I had photographs of the car, of this person in front of my apartment. I had witness statements that this person would come confront me in public places. I **knew** who my stalker was, had evidence, had restraining orders, had records.

And I still never saw the inside of a courtroom. Thankfully, my stalker got a stern talking to by the DA's office, shown the information, and was smart enough to listen. But they were not ever convicted of a crime...because it's terribly difficult to prove it, even with all the evidence I had.

<modsnip>.


<Modsnip>

I'm ranting. I'll get off my soapbox...I've had a very bad few days personally, so we can chalk my rant up to that. But while you're telling me how wrong I am, think about what I've said, and see if it doesn't actually apply.

Patience. A virtue, and a blessing. Let's have some of that.

Best-
Herding Cats

(And I really do mean "best." I like all of you on a personal level, but this case is really testing our "family" here. But I really do wish each and every one of you, both posters and readers, the absolute, utter best.)

 

[MelissaDawn]

Just wanted to clear up one thing. There are several different types of porphyria, the one that was discussed in Morgan's case was "Acute Intermittent Prophyria", in which the skin is not affected.

 

[MayraMM]

Just wanted to clear up one thing. There are several different types of porphyria, the one that was discussed in Morgan's case was "Acute Intermittent Prophyria", in which the skin is not affected.

Correct. No one ever thought M had porphyria cutaneous tarda, which, for those who don't know, was the disease in that movie "The Others" and some think spawned the legend of the vampire!

 

[hambirg]

According to multiple searches for "amitriptyline overdose", ingestion of 750 mg by an adult may result in severe toxicity (height/weight/metabolism would have to be factored in per case), 750 mg divided by 25 mg would equal 30 pills. That's actually not a whole lot of pills, IMO, when considering suicidal overdose. Also, amitriptyline is rapidly absorbed and metabolized.

Another thing I discovered was that amitriptyline is a white, odorless, crystalline compound which is freely soluble in water. The possibility of opening up or crushing the pills and adding them to a glass of water still remains.

These are the links I used to find the above information: http://www.rxlist.com/elavil-drug/clinical-pharmacology.htm
http://www.mhra.gov.uk/Howweregulat...nericoverdosesections/Amitriptyline/index.htm
http://www.rxlist.com/elavil-drug.htm

I also stumbled across this link: http://ash2.wikkii.com/wiki/Amitriptyline_Cocktail

That one is kind of scary, it's basically a how-to on overdosing with amitriptyline.

BBM

I was just coming to post that link. They recommend 6 gr :what: That's twice what I guestimated in my post above. . .but I do think that is closer to what she actually took/received.

So much for the argument how would a stalker know about these drugs, etc. . .Google. :banghead:

 

[hambirg]

Just wanted to clear up one thing. There are several different types of porphyria, the one that was discussed in Morgan's case was "Acute Intermittent Prophyria", in which the skin is not affected.

Ahhh. . thank you. Somehow I missed that.

 

[Herding Cats]

Or how about repeatedly go where the guy was hiding and sniff or whine?

Grace doesn't do that when she's alarmed. She places her body between me and whatever is upsetting her, and makes sure that I do not get there. It's rather interesting. She "herds" me away, but by using her size, not her voice. She's done this several times. She has also "pushed" someone off me by inserting her bulk and swinging around so that the bad guy (in this case, a lady) had to step back and away from me. She never barked, whined, or even sniffed.

And now that I don't pen her at night, she lays in the doorway of my bedroom...all night long. Cats jumping over her, or Romi traipsing around won't make her move. She just lays there, holding down the floor. If I was approached in my own house, I am pretty sure that Gracie would take good care of me. But she's not penned or enclosed, and so can do that.

Newfs are an unusual breed.

They do not need an attorney for that. Just go down there, pay a few (about $25.00) and get every police report.

Any party to a call for service/police report is entitled to a copy.

Did Mrs. Ingram know this? *we* know this. You, as a lawyer, know this. But did she? I've seen reference to her not knowing she could do this...and maybe she's going to try now. Shoot, not everyone has the knowledge we do. We have to allow that to be real. We CAN'T assume just because *we* know it, everyone must. It's not the way things go.

Mom's statement, two years after her daughter's death, about obtaining police reports, ...

<modsnip> Morgan died in December 2011. Not even 10 months ago. Not TWO YEARS.

<modsnip>

(Snipped by me...).

I'm going to take a bit of a break. As I've said in an earlier post, I'm having a hard time physically right now, and it's wearing on me.

I am firmly in support of the mother, and believe, as I've said, that there is far more evidence which should have had an investigation attached to it than not. Was Morgan murdered? I don't know. But I know that I believe that it is far more likely that she was murdered than that she intentionally suicided...

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Ravynne]

I also stumbled across this link: http://ash2.wikkii.com/wiki/Amitriptyline_Cocktail

That one is kind of scary, it's basically a how-to on overdosing with amitriptyline.

Ya know, I shouldnt be shocked by anything on the Internet but I just have to
Say this wiki article definitely shocked me.

 

[MelissaDawn]

Okay, another newbie question. How do I find the original thread this one was carried over from? I'd like to go over the math others have done on the levels of amitriptyline and noritriptyline, but I can't find the original thread. This is just for my own curiosity and probably wasted time on my part since I'm generally not very good at math, but I'm just curious as to the conclusions and how they were arrived at.

 

[Confusion]

According to multiple searches for "amitriptyline overdose", ingestion of 750 mg by an adult may result in severe toxicity (height/weight/metabolism would have to be factored in per case), 750 mg divided by 25 mg would equal 30 pills. That's actually not a whole lot of pills, IMO, when considering suicidal overdose. Also, amitriptyline is rapidly absorbed and metabolized.

Another thing I discovered was that amitriptyline is a white, odorless, crystalline compound which is freely soluble in water. The possibility of opening up or crushing the pills and adding them to a glass of water still remains.

These are the links I used to find the above information: http://www.rxlist.com/elavil-drug/clinical-pharmacology.htm
http://www.mhra.gov.uk/Howweregulat...nericoverdosesections/Amitriptyline/index.htm
http://www.rxlist.com/elavil-drug.htm

I also stumbled across this link: http://ash2.wikkii.com/wiki/Amitriptyline_Cocktail

That one is kind of scary, it's basically a how-to on overdosing with amitriptyline.

I'm sure someone will correct me if my math is wrong, but I think the amount she took has been understated. 7900 ng/ml is actually equivalent to 7900 mg/L. Since the average human body has about 5-6 L of blood in it, that would be equal to about 39.5-47.4 gm, and that is just what is in her blood. Maybe 25% of what is taken orally ends up in your blood system (most you get rid of in urine), and some has also already been broken down into nortriptyline. Even just going with the 39.5 gm, with 100 mg pills (hers were actually 25 mg, she started at 10mg), that would be about 395 pills. If crushed and added to water, it would take an awful lot if you didn't want to gag on the taste.

 

[Confusion]

Okay, another newbie question. How do I find the original thread this one was carried over from? I'd like to go over the math others have done on the levels of amitriptyline and noritriptyline, but I can't find the original thread. This is just for my own curiosity and probably wasted time on my part since I'm generally not very good at math, but I'm just curious as to the conclusions and how they were arrived at.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183957"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183957[/ame]

Hope I did this right.

 

[MayraMM]

7900 ng/ml is actually equivalent to 7900 mg/L.

Actually 7900 ng/mL converts to 7.9 mg/L.

 

[JBean]

Okay, another newbie question. How do I find the original thread this one was carried over from? I'd like to go over the math others have done on the levels of amitriptyline and noritriptyline, but I can't find the original thread. This is just for my own curiosity and probably wasted time on my part since I'm generally not very good at math, but I'm just curious as to the conclusions and how they were arrived at.

Handy tip!
The previous threads are always inserted into the OP ( unless we accidentally forget). So you can quickly locate the previous threads and read.
Probably others were wondering as well so thanks for asking.