CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #4

[Cazzie]

can you post a date & time TI posted that comment? I looked at the link and can't find it

Here is the blog link for Dr. Doberson's report:

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1137#comments

But I don't see anything about a half hour. Actually I think my recollection is from the outside links posted here by members, and/or discussion from our verified medical pros. It mite even have been from the "drug cocktail" discussions.

I tried to make it clear that my post was "JMO"..."to me, it is possible"...etc.. Sorry...

 

[October]

can you post a date & time TI posted that comment? I looked at the link and can't find it

Here:
http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1312#comments

This is one of my biggest problems with this case. I don't disbelieve the parents, in fact I do believe them. It's just that we are constantly thrown little morsels of information that aren't fully explained. If TI feels that Morgan was posed, I would like to hear what position she was in and why that was unusual.

 

[mysterygirl]

In re: pulmonary edema (or fluid in the lungs). Some causes of that are:

Cardiogenic
Acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDs)
Kidney failure
Trauma/poison/drug inhalation
Lung infections
Severe long lasting seizures
Pulmonary embolism
and several other causes (e.g. high altitude...assent to a high altitude +10,000 ft in a rapid and sustained manner).

In all of those, as relates to Morgan, I suspect (as I said on either thread 1 or 2) that the drugs caused a fatal left sided arrhythmia of the heart, which led to the pulmonary edema, which led to her death.

Best-
Herding Cats

Link:
http://www.medicinenet.com/pulmonary_edema/page2.htm#what_causes_pulmonary_edema

Yeah I tried to make this point yesterday. Many things can cause pulmonary edema in an overdose.

It can even be spit that drips back in your throat causing you to spasm...THAT can cause pulmonary edema. So it doesn't have to be the actual drugs.

That being said, elavil toxicity can cause pulmonary edema. I pulled it up yesterday........it's documented.

 

[LadyL]

I'm having a real hard time here trying to figure out what we can sleuth and what we're actually supposed to be doing here. (Not referring to anyone specific here) ... My understanding was originally that we were supposed to read the blog, look at what was written and try to figure out - if a crime was committed (stalking and/or murder), what crime/s may have been committed, how the crime was committed, possibly a generalized 'who' may have committed the crime, etc., but it seems more like all we've been managing to do most of the time is either challange everything stated in the blog because of no physical evicence to support it, or defend the parents because we believe they're writing the truth as they know it and are as frustrated as anyone else with the lack of physical evidence.

I really don't see how it would be possible to determine anything I thought we were here to figure out if everything presented to look at is (directly at times, indirectly at other times) considered to be a lie, a mistake or imagination unless/until someone whose interests would be better served by keeping everything quiet says publicly that it's true. I guess my biggest question is: are we supposed to be trying to figure out what may have caused the events in the blog to happen, or are we supposed to be determining which events written about happened as written?

TIA for any answers.

part of sleuthing any crime or possible guilt of a party is to look at the facts (which we have very little documentation of)

it's difficult for some of us because we do not have the usual supported documentation which is necessary in any court of law but also important for armchair sleuthers

this issue is compounded because there are repeated instances of conflicting info being posted in different places (IMHO) and sleuthers naturally want to go right to the source to determine the truth but we have only one personal source and one document

normally a blog wouldn't even be considered a valid main source for sleuthers to rely on but as mods have explained repeatedly, this is a unique case in which they are allowing it; however, IMO that does not mean the blog is factual or reliable - cross-checking sources is normal procedure but we have nothing to cross-check against and the few things members have found seem to conflict with what is posted online

so ... where does that leave us? it leaves us right where we're at, with some members who want proper documentation, esp. when 'suspects' are named publicly

and other members who are satisfied to rely on the parent's perception and memory of events

I don't think there's anything to be confused about, as long as we all follow the rules set out at the beginning of this thread and contact mods in advance of posting anything we're unsure about

we're allowed to have different opinions on the reliability of witnesses ... and there's no 'supposed' to when it comes to what you want to determine - as your own person, you may decide what you would like to focus on and post your thoughts related to that

this is all JMO and no offense intended

 

[LadyL]

Here is the blog link for Dr. Doberson's report:

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1137#comments

But I don't see anything about a half hour. Actually I think my recollection is from the outside links posted here by members, and/or discussion from our verified medical pros. It mite even have been from the "drug cocktail" discussions.

I tried to make it clear that my post was "JMO"..."to me, it is possible"...etc.. Sorry...

no, no, no I meant TI's comment on the blog, where she says she thought Morgan looked 'posed'

no apologies necessary :hugs:

 

[mysterygirl]

I feel like people are posting over and over and over that we don't have proof....

We are just going by a blog etc......

WE ALL KNOW THAT.

Maybe we could make a sticky and bump it every once in a while so people don't have to wade through post after post of people saying this same thing?

 

[mysterygirl]

Here:
http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1312#comments

This is one of my biggest problems with this case. I don't disbelieve the parents, in fact I do believe them. It's just that we are constantly thrown little morsels of information that aren't fully explained. If TI feels that Morgan was posed, I would like to hear what position she was in and why that was unusual.

It just got asked on the site.

I think if we want to know something, let's just ask. She seems very willing to answer questions.

I finally listened to the radio interview. I was impressed with both Toni and Tricia.

 

[fowltemptress]

I think we all agree that the story is starting to stall out a bit. To keep our interest, it might be a good idea for TI to start grouping days together like she did earlier in the blog. She can still maintain the effectiveness of her writing strategy while giving us a little more to go on. I'm happy for them that were "quiet days" but, in the interests of keeping a buzz about her daughter's case, maybe try to end each account of the day(s) events with a day where incidents pertaining to the stalking occurred. I know I would be happy with that little amount of information to analyze everyday. Right now I feel like I do when I'm psyched about a new episode of my favorite show only to tune in and find a rebroadcast...wah, wah Don't get me wrong, I'll still watch but my full attention is lost, much like I'm starting to feel now...

 

[AbcInAthens]

no, no, no I meant TI's comment on the blog, where she says she thought Morgan looked 'posed'

no apologies necessary :hugs:

It's here: http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1312#comments

 

[Confusion]

It just got asked on the site.

I think if we want to know something, let's just ask. She seems very willing to answer questions.

I finally listened to the radio interview. I was impressed with both Toni and Tricia.

BBM

I think one of my biggest problems with this case is that even if you do ask, and she answers, there will be a group here who will just say, "That's what she says, but where's her proof?" If we're just here to force her or someone else to find proof and share it, then I feel like I'm just wasting my time. If we're actually supposed to be figuring out what might have happened (going by the families UNOFFICIAL records and memories), then I think people need to stop accusing them of lying whenever they say anything so we can concentrate on other things.

This case is just totally different from any others I've read here. Normally, bad-mouthing the family of the deceased, especially those never even suspected of any wrong-doing, would never be allowed. At the same time, stating things as fact with no physical evidence or official confirmation to back it up would also never be allowed. :banghead:

 

[Herding Cats]

Yeah I tried to make this point yesterday. Many things can cause pulmonary edema in an overdose.

It can even be spit that drips back in your throat causing you to spasm...THAT can cause pulmonary edema. So it doesn't have to be the actual drugs.

That being said, elavil toxicity can cause pulmonary edema. I pulled it up yesterday........it's documented.

Yes, ami can indeed do it. I think that the mechanism of action is that ami can cause arrhythmia, which can lead to fatal pulmonary edema. I am not clear as to if the ami causes pulmonary edema itself, although the seratonin level change sure can do some very strange and unexpected things in the body.

Add to the mix some flexeril, which is a muscle relaxant (and the heart is a muscle), that will give you respiratory depression which can lead to pulmonary edema.

And then add to all of that Dalmane, which is again a benzo, which will depress respiration, which can also lead to pulmonary edema.

I am flummoxed as to why the coroner/ME didn't investigate the cause of the pulmonary edema, but listed it as COD. Just flummoxed. It's like saying the only cause of death ever is the heart stopping...and not going further as to **why** the heart stopped in the first place.

Sigh.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[LadyL]

We're all (obviously) victim's advocates.

We all want justice for Morgan if she was murdered.

I think we're all sad that Morgan's parents have suffered so much.

We probably all want an investigation into whether there is corruption with the 'men in hats'.

We all have the same goal and we're just travelling different paths to get there.

 

[LadyL]

It just got asked on the site.

I think if we want to know something, let's just ask. She seems very willing to answer questions.

I finally listened to the radio interview. I was impressed with both Toni and Tricia.

Some of us have questions that have NOT been answered here and have been ignored or deleted on the blog. It's natural for us to question why that is IMO.

 

[LadyL]

It's here: http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1312#comments

thank you

don't know why I couldn't see that before

 

[cluciano63]

IMO, this case does not belong on this thread, until it has been determined that a crime was committed that caused Morgan's death. Maybe "In the News" would be more appropriate, I don't know.

 

[Lena]

Thanks for the link to Dr. Doberson's report...I do recall that I read it briefly, but it was before I had much of a grasp on the whole story so it was like reading Greek.

His words from here: http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?attachment_id=1136
"Considering the medical history and autopsy findings, it is unclear how Dr. Kurtzman arrived at a cause of death related to acute intermittent porphyria..." lead me to believe that the original autopsy did in fact NOT include any testing to confirm the presence of porphyria. And even if it had, the basic blood/urine tests might have been negative regardless, as elevated levels tend to show during an attack ie. she'd have needed to have been sick just prior to death.

Of course this is just my speculation. If this is the case, I'd be very concerned about the validity of reports from that office and as a parent trying to come to terms with the death of my child (I don't even know how that's possible), knowing or believing the report to be inaccurate would certainly add salt to my wounds.

 

[21merc7]

Was the blog ever intended to be viewed by any but the locals? I'm not certain what the intention was. I know it will not get attention from FBI or any other source that was mentioned, simply b/c that is not the way they operate and the issues we have discussed here.

I'm thinking it was meant as a part of grieving therapy, to get out all the denial, bargaining, anger, and any other emotions until you finally reach acceptance.

Now it is getting some attention from outside, and things have to be worked around that. It was not planned for?

 

[mysterygirl]

Some of us have questions that have NOT been answered here and have been ignored or deleted on the blog. It's natural for us to question why that is IMO.

I was unaware that questions were being deleted on the blog.

Is there a particular reason? Were they offensive or accusatory?

I'm really curious about this.

 

[MayraMM]

BBM

Normally, bad-mouthing the family of the deceased, especially those never even suspected of any wrong-doing, would never be allowed. At the same time, stating things as fact with no physical evidence or official confirmation to back it up would also never be allowed. :banghead:

Pointing out inconsistencies isn't bad-mouthing, it's trying to figure out what really did happen. I don't think anyone has straight up called the family liars, but the inconsistencies are there and aren't made up. That can't be ignored. If mom is so upset that she's getting confused on timing or facts, then that's another reason why we can't go off her blog as the last line.

I agree; it's very frustrating.

 

[mysterygirl]

Pointing out inconsistencies isn't bad-mouthing, it's trying to figure out what really did happen. I don't think anyone has straight up called the family liars, but the inconsistencies are there and aren't made up. That can't be ignored. If mom is so upset that she's getting confused on timing or facts, then that's another reason why we can't go off her blog as the last line.

I agree; it's very frustrating.

Well when people say.....I don't even think there was a stalker, it's not exactly calling the family truth tellers.