CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #4

[Salem]

KNOCK IT OFF IN HERE! The blog is the blog. The end. That is what we have to work with. Questioning inconsistencies, in a respectful manner, is allowed. Bickering back and forth about that, is NOT allowed.

The parents feel an injustice and, potentially a murder, has been done here. Working in a constructive manner to answer questions, look at evidence, and come to a conclusion is what is needed. Not spending a bunch of time and energy bickering.

Stop now, it derails the thread and takes the focus off productive work.

Salem

 

[FrayedKnot]

I think this thread has become less about what actually happened to Morgan and more about arguing for one perception of the case or another.

That's because we have little official info to go on.

For those who doubt murder or even stalking or for those (like me) who are just confused about what the heck happened, police reports, autopsy reports, more statements from LE, all videos and/or photographic evidence that the Ingrams may have, would help determine if the doubts are warranted or not or would help clear up confusion.

For those who are convinced Morgan was stalked to death, what information do you feel you need to sleuth exactly what happened and who was involved?

In the meantime, yes, neither the blog nor the parent's statements are verifiable facts. We all know that and repeating it doesn't help.

Neither does repeating the blog statements and comments as fact - e.g, "We know Morgan was happy and healthy before she died" (no we don't). I think it would help if the unofficial statements were repeated with a disclaimer, "Assuming Morgan indeed was happy and healthy right before she died..."

Then maybe we could stop the circular arguing.

Well said as usual, Gitana.

You are so often the voice of reason when things get heated.

Thanks button wasn't enough.

 

[rollinginit]

My heart is really sad for the parents and I hope to the good lord, they get some answers......or at least a little bit of peace.

 

[Confusion]

I think this thread has become less about what actually happened to Morgan and more about arguing for one perception of the case or another.

That's because we have little official info to go on.

For those who doubt murder or even stalking or for those (like me) who are just confused about what the heck happened, police reports, autopsy reports, more statements from LE, all videos and/or photographic evidence that the Ingrams may have, would help determine if the doubts are warranted or not or would help clear up confusion.

For those who are convinced Morgan was stalked to death, what information do you feel you need to sleuth exactly what happened and who was involved?

In the meantime, yes, neither the blog nor the parent's statements are verifiable facts. We all know that and repeating it doesn't help.

Neither does repeating the blog statements and comments as fact - e.g, "We know Morgan was happy and healthy before she died" (no we don't). I think it would help if the unofficial statements were repeated with a disclaimer, "Assuming Morgan indeed was happy and healthy right before she died..."

Then maybe we could stop the circular arguing.

BBM

Going into this whole thing, I already knew that there would be little or no physical evidence along the way and wrongly assumed that everybody was aware that it's very hard to prove that you've seen, said, heard or felt something. Even when someone has confirmed a statement (in comments), it's seen as not good enough because they aren't "official" people. If there had been a lot of hard evidence, I'm sure someone would have been arrested long ago, and M might possibly still be alive. At the very least, her death would have most likely been investigated more closely.

I think the reason so many repeat statements as 'fact' is that we are supposed to be sleuthing the blog, as I understood things, and it's hard to do if you can't use any part of it in your research. I'm not saying that I believe everything TI and SI believe without question, but for the purpose of what I'm doing here, I'm going on the assumption that everything is true - or at least the truth as they know it. I'm definitely not totally convinced that the people who have been accused were doing all of what was happening. It's even possible that they were giving her a hard time in the beginning for a reason known only to them, and they quit but someone else took advantage of their past actions to cover up for what he/she was doing.

I've just seen too many victims not being believed, and too many offical people who couldn't be trusted and or were totally incompetent (no, I'm not saying either is the case here, but it is possible that there were some either incompetent or unethical actions taken, and I do believe that all 3 of the I's were victims to at least some extent.) If I have to, I'll just continue to look at it without commenting here (and avoid all of the tirades), but I don't really want to start posting comments on the blog itself.

ETA: Sorry Salem, I didn't see your post before posting this. I'll shut up about it now.

 

[mysterygirl]

We know that she had an extremely high level of Elavil in her system.

So, I'd like to know from the experts............what is the most likely route that level of drug could get into her system?

I don't think she could take it orally in one dose..............so it sort of negates the pills in the Elavil bottles. It would take too many, makes no sense.

 

[rollinginit]

We know that she had an extremely high level of Elavil in her system.

So, I'd like to know from the experts............what is the most likely route that level of drug could get into her system?

I don't think she could take it orally in one dose..............so it sort of negates the pills in the Elavil bottles. It would take too many, makes no sense.

What I wonder, if it was put in a liquid, what liquid could mask the taste?

I take BC powders sometimes (crushed aspirin) and that stuff is foul tasting. The only thing that sort of mask one powder would be Gatorade, but I still can taste the bitter.

 

[mysterygirl]

What I wonder, if it was put in a liquid, what liquid could mask the taste?

I take BC powders sometimes (crushed aspirin) and that stuff is foul tasting. The only thing that sort of mask one powder would be Gatorade, but I still can taste the bitter.

To me, transdermal makes the most sense.

Did someone get it from a vet? Steal it?

Why did she feel bad that day? Was it's effects already starting?

There is nothing that makes sense about this death to me.

 

[mysterygirl]

Do we know if Morgan drank alcohol............even one drink?

Anyone?

 

[Confusion]

Ok, I've already posted one theory on how the drugs could have ended up in her system (while trying not to include whether it was her or someone else who put them there.) I hope people don't mind if I put an outline on here of how I feel I (or anyone who agrees with me) should proceed. I've always been a bit weird (I'm sure there won't be any arguments there!), and prefer to do things backwards. When I did mazes when younger, I'd always start at the end and work my way back to the beginning, and that's what I want to try to do here. Not exactly an easy task since it could be months before any facts (or reasonable facsimiles) are posted about the final weeks.

Anyway, my thoughts are to try figuring out in the following order:

1. What actually killed her. That includes how much of the drugs she would have to take, whether it was the effects of the drugs or a complication (pulmonary edema, etc.)

2. How the drugs got into her system. This means - why were there drugs in her blood and stomach but no fragments, no 'stomach contents' (it was stated that the stomach was empty), no injection sites (as far as TI knows), no drug paraphernalia, empty bottles, etc. in the room.

3. Why the dogs didn't react that night.

4. How someone could have entered her room that night without being seen or heard, and without leaving any kind of evidence.

5. Why nobody, other than the deer, was caught on film that night.

6. Why the stalker would choose that time and method to kill her.

7. What made her last day different from those before it. That would include the lack of appetite, the preparations for going out, not responding to texts, losing her temper with TI, etc.

I guess that's enough for now, even if I haven't gotten past her last day. Thanks for putting up with my babbling.

 

[MelissaDawn]

As to the drugs found in her system, I just want to point out that it's not impossible to take upwards of 50 pills at one time. As a medical transcriptionist I know I've come across multiple attempted suicides where they took that many, or more, pills. Whether or not pill fragments would be found in the stomach, I don't know. What the elevated levels indicate, I don't know. I don't do the lab reports, so I have no way of knowing that.

Also, as to not taking it dissolved in liquid because of bad taste, I'm not sure that would hinder someone if they were determined. I've had to take oral potassium and that is some NASTY stuff, but I had to take it and so I did. Not to mention, if we're looking at from the side of being forced to take it, taste wouldn't matter either. Just some thoughts.

 

[MayraMM]

Ok, I've already posted one theory on how the drugs could have ended up in her system (while trying not to include whether it was her or someone else who put them there.) I hope people don't mind if I put an outline on here of how I feel I (or anyone who agrees with me) should proceed. I've always been a bit weird (I'm sure there won't be any arguments there!), and prefer to do things backwards. When I did mazes when younger, I'd always start at the end and work my way back to the beginning, and that's what I want to try to do here. Not exactly an easy task since it could be months before any facts (or reasonable facsimiles) are posted about the final weeks.

Anyway, my thoughts are to try figuring out in the following order:

1. What actually killed her. That includes how much of the drugs she would have to take, whether it was the effects of the drugs or a complication (pulmonary edema, etc.)

2. How the drugs got into her system. This means - why were there drugs in her blood and stomach but no fragments, no 'stomach contents' (it was stated that the stomach was empty), no injection sites (as far as TI knows), no drug paraphernalia, empty bottles, etc. in the room.

3. Why the dogs didn't react that night.

4. How someone could have entered her room that night without being seen or heard, and without leaving any kind of evidence.

5. Why nobody, other than the deer, was caught on film that night.

6. Why the stalker would choose that time and method to kill her.

7. What made her last day different from those before it. That would include the lack of appetite, the preparations for going out, not responding to texts, losing her temper with TI, etc.

I guess that's enough for now, even if I haven't gotten past her last day. Thanks for putting up with my babbling.

You should post these over on the question thread. Maybe some of them will get answered. They're all excellent questions.

 

[Confusion]

Good idea. I'm going to just copy the questions themselves and post them there. Maybe with a bit of luck, I'll get answers so I'll be able to skip over some and move on to the next group.

 

[mysterygirl]

I remember Morgan's mother saying the puppy didn't react when the EMT's came into the room.

It's possible that the puppy is just docile.

 

[rollinginit]

Confusion....those are some good questions.

I think I can*somewhat* answer #5. mom said they do have it on video someone running away the night m died.

Take that however you want.

 

[mysterygirl]

I'd also like to know if Morgan ever complained of dry mouth.

That drug is notorious for causing dry mouth even in lower doses.

So it could let us know if there was some in her system over a period of time verses a one time massive dose.

 

[rollinginit]

As to the drugs found in her system, I just want to point out that it's not impossible to take upwards of 50 pills at one time. As a medical transcriptionist I know I've come across multiple attempted suicides where they took that many, or more, pills. Whether or not pill fragments would be found in the stomach, I don't know. What the elevated levels indicate, I don't know. I don't do the lab reports, so I have no way of knowing that.

Also, as to not taking it dissolved in liquid because of bad taste, I'm not sure that would hinder someone if they were determined. I've had to take oral potassium and that is some NASTY stuff, but I had to take it and so I did. Not to mention, if we're looking at from the side of being forced to take it, taste wouldn't matter either. Just some thoughts.

True....but if you were drinking it, you would want to make sure it's not so nasty it makes you vomit. JMO

 

[MayraMM]

As to the drugs found in her system, I just want to point out that it's not impossible to take upwards of 50 pills at one time. As a medical transcriptionist I know I've come across multiple attempted suicides where they took that many, or more, pills. Whether or not pill fragments would be found in the stomach, I don't know. What the elevated levels indicate, I don't know. I don't do the lab reports, so I have no way of knowing that.

Also, as to not taking it dissolved in liquid because of bad taste, I'm not sure that would hinder someone if they were determined. I've had to take oral potassium and that is some NASTY stuff, but I had to take it and so I did. Not to mention, if we're looking at from the side of being forced to take it, taste wouldn't matter either. Just some thoughts.

I agree, whether chosen to take or forced, the taste won't make much difference, except maybe if determined to die, it would be easier to hold it in and not vomit immediately. I would think if forced, you'd vomit as a reflexive self-preservation mechanism. It's also possible that she took an antiemetic before the dose, like that how-to web site suggested. I wonder if that would show up in a standard tox screen.

The taste, I feel, would only be relevant if the medication was slipped to her unknowingly, like in a drink before she got home. If someone came into the home and forced it, the taste wouldn't matter; if she was choloformed first (mom suggested this as a possibility), then again the taste wouldn't matter, although getting her to drink it would be difficult if not impossible; and if taken intentionally, she could have had a chaser of some sort to help with the taste. Again, a description of the scene would be helpful. Any glasses on the nightstand, etc.?

 

[Herding Cats]

My answers in bold...

(snipped)

Anyway, my thoughts are to try figuring out in the following order:

1. What actually killed her. That includes how much of the drugs she would have to take, whether it was the effects of the drugs or a complication (pulmonary edema, etc.)

I believe that the ami was of a high enough "dose" to kill her without anything else. However, there is the presence of a muscle relaxer (flexeril) and a benzo (dalmane), both of which would be "adjuvants" or boosters of the ami. Ami tox killed her, imho, and the pul. edema was a result of the drug overdose (left side heart arrhythmia often leads to pul-edema, and should be considered as a primary s/e in this case, again imho)

2. How the drugs got into her system. This means - why were there drugs in her blood and stomach but no fragments, no 'stomach contents' (it was stated that the stomach was empty), no injection sites (as far as TI knows), no drug paraphernalia, empty bottles, etc. in the room.

it is my belief that she was either injected or the drug was in liquid form and ingested. As there was no thorough examination of the body post mortem (e.g. a rape kit, the nail polish was left on, et cetera), I suspect that there was at least one injection of ami. If it was ingestion, it was in liquid form, and the flexeril was in pill form. I don't know enough about the dalmane to venture a WAG as to it's form or how it got into her body.

3. Why the dogs didn't react that night.
Morgan's mom believes that Tessi, the Newf, was reacting to something based on her body language and refusal to come to bed. Tessi was brought to bed in any event, and the door to the parents' room was closed. Morgan's puppy was still pretty young, 5 months old, and likely would not have been stranger aggressive with all the places Morgan took her (e.g. proper socialization), and further if Wylah is an Aussie sheep dog (as I believe she is), then there is no protective instinct towards humans, and even if there were, the puppy was too young to do much of anything.

Furthermore, I believe that Wylah knew the person who was in Morgan's room that night.

4. How someone could have entered her room that night without being seen or heard, and without leaving any kind of evidence.
in the garage, come in through the sliders in the back, or had a key. It's not hard to not leave evidence if you're prepared, and it's even easier to "not leave evidence" when there's no investigation (e.g. no taking the bed clothes, evening outfit, toothbrush, et cetera) that was done.

5. Why nobody, other than the deer, was caught on film that night.
We don't know that. There are video tapes which Morgan's mom talks about, wherein a person is seen behind cars, running down a street, and so forth, but I don't know the date/time of these. I don't know if there is inconclusive video of that night. And I think the fawn photo is a sentimental photo, and should not be used to judge whether there was or was not a photo taken of the stalker/murderer.

6. Why the stalker would choose that time and method to kill her.
In most cases of stalker murder, there is a stressor/precipitating event; I don't know for sure what it was in this case, but I'd suspect that it had something to do with the coming "talk" with LE the next week with a potential suspect, and/or some dynamic in a group relationship of which we are as yet unaware. But there was a precipitating event, of that I'm sure.

7. What made her last day different from those before it. That would include the lack of appetite, the preparations for going out, not responding to texts, losing her temper with TI, etc.
I don't believe we have that info yet.

Hope this helps.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Herding Cats]

I'd also like to know if Morgan ever complained of dry mouth.

That drug is notorious for causing dry mouth even in lower doses.

So it could let us know if there was some in her system over a period of time verses a one time massive dose.

BBM. the ratio of ami:norami (the metabolite) shows us that this was a dose that was an "all at once" dose. If there were more equal numbers of ami:norami, it would indicate regular or previous usage.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[Herding Cats]

I agree, whether chosen to take or forced, the taste won't make much difference, except maybe if determined to die, it would be easier to hold it in and not vomit immediately. I would think if forced, you'd vomit as a reflexive self-preservation mechanism. It's also possible that she took an antiemetic before the dose, like that how-to web site suggested. I wonder if that would show up in a standard tox screen.

The taste, I feel, would only be relevant if the medication was slipped to her unknowingly, like in a drink before she got home. If someone came into the home and forced it, the taste wouldn't matter; if she was choloformed first (mom suggested this as a possibility), then again the taste wouldn't matter, although getting her to drink it would be difficult if not impossible; and if taken intentionally, she could have had a chaser of some sort to help with the taste. Again, a description of the scene would be helpful. Any glasses on the nightstand, etc.?

Bolds by me.

Unless....it might account for the pul edema, if there was vomit aspirated...that could be part of what was in her lungs; some aspirated vomit, or some aspirated liquid medication.

Hmmmmm.....

Best-
Herding Cats