CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #4

[Cazzie]

Mom usually post around 8 EST.....or at least that's what I've noticed.

Also, she frequently posts replies before the first blog entry of the day.

 

[marycarney]

HIGHLY unlikely - it would be a horrible lung irritant (causing prolongued and noisy coughing) AND you would need some type of nebulizer to accomplish it. Nebulizers are NOISY as well. Additionally, I do not think a compound with a benzene ring in its structure is water-soluble.

And no - this would not account for the pulmonary edema.

 

[rollinginit]

Probably a very stupid question.....but can birth control pills cause a negative reaction in the body?

I'm only mentioning it bc I just seen a lawsuit tv commercial against birth control pills.

 

[MelissaDawn]

I don't know where to ask this, I tired scrolling back to find a moderator on to PM but didn't see one. I'm still getting used to navigating the site and I'm just wondering why do threads "end" and start up again separately?

 

[SmoothOperator]

In looking at the conversion from nanograms per mL of blood to milligrams I'm coming up with a round about figure of it being a dose of around 560mg of amitriptyline that was present in Morgans blood at the time of her death..is that sounding right?..anyone?

Thats like 56 10mg amitriptyline pills that would have to be ingested..thats a crazy amount of pills and there to have been zero even pill fragments found is just not believable..

I could be way off as im no medical conversion specialist..lol..nor do i pretend to be if one such person were to actually exist..lol..

**ETA**as you'll quickly see in just a couple posts down I now know my above "round about" estimated dose of 560mg is waaaay wrong..as it takes a dose of 1600-2000mg to be lethal..so I am still at a loss as to an estimated dose of amitriptyline that was taken/administered to Morgan prior to her death..any help would be greatly appreciated

 

[MayraMM]

Okay.

If m committed suicide, what would make sense?

If m was murdered, what would make sense?

With the drugs???????

IMO, that mixture of drugs was a guarantee that she was not going to live. In the reports I've done with obvious suicidal ideation, I don't recall ever having a jumper, shooter, or slit wrister waitasec. All I can remember doing in 15 years are reports of intentional drug overdoses and in almost all of them it was with multiple drugs, with the people intent on killing themselves. The suicidal gestures tended to be one-drug overdoses, and they almost always called someone to tell them what they had done or planned it out so someone would come home in time. The ones who meant business took handfuls of what ever they could get a hold of. Some even stockpiled medication for the big event.

So, in my opinion only, I think M wanted to make sure she wasn't going to be saved. I think she slowly gathered the medications, borrowing them here and there from friends, dipping into the supple at home in a non-obvious way, until she was sure and ready to make her move. Getting dressed up, putting on makeup the night before makes sense, too (some people care how they're found), and I think she may have said goodbye to dad that night, as well. The jewelry could have been given away to friends.

If she was murdered, I think the combination of drugs is odd. It would be much easier to get heroin or cocaine or meth on the streets, plus it would have had the added effect of looking like an overdose, making her look bad in the process (remember that book, Go Ask Alice?).

As for the stalking, I think there was a peeper who got scared away, then people got jumpy and imaginations went a little wild and accusations were made. Then I think the people accused (the police supposedly went and talked to them) may have gotten mad and decided to retaliate by being nuisances.

If that is what spurred the suicide, then I think they are partially responsible, but if that wasn't the reason she did it, then I don't think anyone should be blamed by providing her with a sleeping pill to help her sleep, not knowing what she was planning.

That's just one possibility that I'm leaning towards.

 

[MayraMM]

Thats like 56 10mg amitriptyline pills that would have to be ingested..thats a crazy amount of pills and there to have been zero even pill fragments found is just not believable..

As I recall, mom said she was moved up in dosage because the original dosage of 10 mg wasn't helping. She said the higher dose "did the trick", or something along those lines. That was in the interview where they were discussing the CO poisoning. I believed she was switched to 25 mg.

 

[Cazzie]

I don't know where to ask this, I tired scrolling back to find a moderator on to PM but didn't see one. I'm still getting used to navigating the site and I'm just wondering why do threads "end" and start up again separately?

It varies, but they try to keep a thread to a maximum of approx. 1,000 posts.

So when a Mod is available, they open a new one, usually give a warning to move over to it, and then they close the "full" one.

 

[renogirl]

Wow! I've been reading the blog when I could in my spare time over the past few days. What an incredible story. I absolutely believe there was a stalker. How frightening that he could go so undetected. I do believe animals could've caused some or the motion lights but much of this could only be explained by there being an actual stalker.
I agree that it is frustrating to not get the rest of the story right away but I will trust the family is making decisions based on more than just what we've been told. The publicity it's bringing may not have come if it was just posted at one time. Judging by the amount of posts here alone, it's created a large amount of interest. Either way, right or wrong, it's their story to tell and I will absolutely follow it and keep this family in my thoughts. This is part of their healing process in addition to wanting answers. I have no idea how I would handle the situation if I were in their shoes.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Yeah I tried to make this point yesterday. Many things can cause pulmonary edema in an overdose.

It can even be spit that drips back in your throat causing you to spasm...THAT can cause pulmonary edema. So it doesn't have to be the actual drugs.

That being said, elavil toxicity can cause pulmonary edema. I pulled it up yesterday........it's documented.

In the interview with Tricia TI mentions that Morgan was beginning to cough. This is why Morgan thought she may have to cancel her weekend obligation to look after children of military members. She was afraid she might be coming down with something that could be contagious.

Somewhere I read that Morgan's hand was over her heart when she was found. That was before anything was mentioned about her being posed. Someone asked TI is she looked 'posed' and TI probably remembered her hand being over her heart and answered 'yes' but hadn't thought of it as 'posed' necessarily prior to being asked the question.

They may not be able to talk about this but I'd like a full account from boy 'D' and his grandma regarding the hours Morgan spent at grandma's house (as per Morgan to her mom). :waitasec: Where and what were D and M really doing? On my get real meter it's tipping toward the 'ya right' side of the scale. D may be able to or has already shed some light on Morgan's behavior that night. She went out early in the afternoon and was supposed to return but didn't. Then after four hours she told mom she was at D's grandma's house (which could be true but was grandma there as well?). Had D and Morgan been drinking? Really, all of this needs to be factored in before we can get a feel of the whole picture. IMO 'D' would have wanted the Ingram family to know exactly what they did and didn't do that day and night. I hope he's talked to them. This isn't about him either but how did he react when he heard that Morgan had died?

 

[fowltemptress]

What about a transdermal gel(which we've referenced being available on one of the earlier threads) delivered intranasally? To the best of my knowledge, drug concentrations administered intranasally are far lower than drug concentrations administered transdermally, but I would need a medical professional to confirm that please.

Sorry, still a noob and I haven't had a chance to figure out how to post links or quotes, mainly because I have a 2 year old son that is keeping me SO busy!

 

[SmoothOperator]

Guess im way off as i just read that it takes 1600-2000mg dose to be lethal..that tells me my little "round about" figure of 560mg of amitriptyline posted above is just waaaay wrong..

Oh well..so anyone wanna dummy it down and give me the conversion for dummies answer to what is the estimated dose that was taken of amitriptyline based on the 7900ng per mL of blood?

TIa

 

[Confusion]

Can one of you smart medical people tell me if the ng/ml is talking about only in the blood, or would it be the same level in all bodily fluids? That would make such a big difference (5-6 L of blood compared to about 40L of all bodily fluids). TIA

 

[MelissaDawn]

Guess im way off as i just read that it takes 1600-2000mg dose to be lethal..that tells me my little "round about" figure of 560mg of amitriptyline posted above is just waaaay wrong..

Oh well..so anyone wanna dummy it down and give me the conversion for dummies answer to what is the estimated dose that was taken of amitriptyline based on the 7900ng per mL of blood?

TIa

Yep, I'm really confused on this one too, the math I did came out to approximately 8 pills of 25 mg amitriptyline, but I admit to sucking at math. I used someone else's original conversion, but had a question where it jumped from mg to grams, but there was no answer to that so I'm still not sure how that step worked.

Another thing that I find confusing is that in my research I found that 750 mg or greater can cause severe toxicity - I would imagine that's based on each individual's body height/weight, etc. - but add in other drugs and their interactions it might not be necessary to reach even that level to cause overdose.

I don't know, maybe I should just stay away from anything involving math. :waitasec:

 

[Confusion]

What about a transdermal gel(which we've referenced being available on one of the earlier threads) delivered intranasally? To the best of my knowledge, drug concentrations administered intranasally are far lower than drug concentrations administered transdermally, but I would need a medical professional to confirm that please.

Sorry, still a noob and I haven't had a chance to figure out how to post links or quotes, mainly because I have a 2 year old son that is keeping me SO busy!

I think the belief here is that it would account for the drugs in the blood, but not those in the gastric system. MOO

Yep, I'm really confused on this one too, the math I did came out to approximately 8 pills of 25 mg amitriptyline, but I admit to sucking at math. I used someone else's original conversion, but had a question where it jumped from mg to grams, but there was no answer to that so I'm still not sure how that step worked.

Another thing that I find confusing is that in my research I found that 750 mg or greater can cause severe toxicity - I would imagine that's based on each individual's body height/weight, etc. - but add in other drugs and their interactions it might not be necessary to reach even that level to cause overdose.

I don't know, maybe I should just stay away from anything involving math. :waitasec:

I don't have any problem doing math (except when I haven't slept in a couple days like the other night), but it's hard to do if you don't have all of the factors.

 

[Cazzie]

To whomever asked about birth control pills, of course they have potential side effects. Many women are advised not to take them (or decide on their own to not take the risk). So I would surmise that BC medication could interact adversely with other drugs or have a cumulative negative impact on someone. Of course I don't have the proper terminology since INAMP.

I'm wondering if the ME's were aware of M's BC prescription and took that into account.

I don't know if it's customary to document such in an autopsy report, but I would think so.

 

[Confusion]

To whomever asked about birth control pills, of course they have potential side effects. Many women are advised not to take them (or decide on their own to not take the risk). So I would surmise that BC medication could interact adversely with other drugs or have a cumulative negative impact on someone. Of course I don't have the proper terminology since INAMP.

I'm wondering if the ME's were aware of M's BC prescription and took that into account.

I don't know if it's customary to document such in an autopsy report, but I would think so.

Thanks, I couldn't remember what it was I was going to respond to before. I don't know what kind of BC she was on, but I know someone who had to change to a different one when she started taking amitriptyline because whatever she was taking could be lethal when taken with it. I'm not 100% sure of this, since she does tend to exaggerate at times, but I do know that they had to change her BC (and said they would have preferred to just take her off it) while she was on it.

 

[rollinginit]

I wonder...could other drugs make some drugs seem higher than they were (like birth control)

 

[Cazzie]

O/T: another tip about the iterations of threads...while in a thread, you can scroll down towards the bottom, and on the left is a section of links called "Similar Threads" and you'll see a few other threads that are often connected. You can do that to quickly go to another iteration of a thread (or, alternatively, just go to the OP, opening post, page 1, and the Mods put links to all the other iterations). Yay Mods!

(sorry, O/T)

 

[mysterygirl]

Well I give anesthesia for a living and the ng per ml of blood is something way out of my comfort zone because I don't ever have to deal with it.

We need a toxicologist!