CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #4

[marycarney]

I don't believe the blog is fiction either. I DO think it is the hindsight reflections of a grieving mother who will not accept what appears to be obvious to some - that her beloved, intelligent, talented and beautiful daughter ended her own life.

I am reminded of the story of the blind men describing the elephant.............

 

[21merc7]

That s very interesting. I'll have to do more research myself. I had mostly ruled out accidental OD in my mind based on the high level of drugs found in her system, and still think it is a less likely option, but without having a good grasp on what those levels mean concretely, it's hard to know what may or may not have happened.

I have no idea what happened.

I'm just reading about the medication today, and hope all docs that prescribe give a warning. I'm one of those that thinks a couple more pills won't hurt. Not anymore.

 

[21merc7]

This entire discussion seems to be only based on the blog. No news at all? Does anyone have a recent news link on the case. I am really curious if the other players like Morgans friends and the Mothers suspects have had anything to say in the media. Can't find a thing on it in the news.

Livvy here is the news thread. There were only a few (3 I think) articles written so far, I think they are all posted here.

The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram: timeline, picture,media thread: - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[fowltemptress]

I think we discussed this in #2(the "doping" of racehorses that is), not sure though? I believe the outcome of the discussion was that, yes it was illegal in racing but not in recreational(?) riding. If someone could help me out with this reference TIA!

 

[laurafairlie]

I have no idea what happened.

I'm just reading about the medication today, and hope all docs that prescribe give a warning. I'm one of those that thinks a couple more pills won't hurt. Not anymore.

Thanks for sharing what you found. It definitely gives me something else to mull over.

 

[ZenSearcher]

IMO, that mixture of drugs was a guarantee that she was not going to live. In the reports I've done with obvious suicidal ideation, I don't recall ever having a jumper, shooter, or slit wrister waitasec. All I can remember doing in 15 years are reports of intentional drug overdoses and in almost all of them it was with multiple drugs, with the people intent on killing themselves. The suicidal gestures tended to be one-drug overdoses, and they almost always called someone to tell them what they had done or planned it out so someone would come home in time. The ones who meant business took handfuls of what ever they could get a hold of. Some even stockpiled medication for the big event.

So, in my opinion only, I think M wanted to make sure she wasn't going to be saved. I think she slowly gathered the medications, borrowing them here and there from friends, dipping into the supple at home in a non-obvious way, until she was sure and ready to make her move. Getting dressed up, putting on makeup the night before makes sense, too (some people care how they're found), and I think she may have said goodbye to dad that night, as well. The jewelry could have been given away to friends.

If she was murdered, I think the combination of drugs is odd. It would be much easier to get heroin or cocaine or meth on the streets, plus it would have had the added effect of looking like an overdose, making her look bad in the process (remember that book, Go Ask Alice?).

As for the stalking, I think there was a peeper who got scared away, then people got jumpy and imaginations went a little wild and accusations were made. Then I think the people accused (the police supposedly went and talked to them) may have gotten mad and decided to retaliate by being nuisances.

If that is what spurred the suicide, then I think they are partially responsible, but if that wasn't the reason she did it, then I don't think anyone should be blamed by providing her with a sleeping pill to help her sleep, not knowing what she was planning.

That's just one possibility that I'm leaning towards.

Except for no pills and/or no pill fragments were found in her stomach contents.

I'm just curious about how common this kind of suicide is. I'd like to know how many cases out there involve a suicide where the victim ignores available pills in-house and finds a way to ingest or inject liquid drugs (I don't mean recreational drugs, though), or a suicide case where this high a blood level of ami has been found w/o pills or pill fragments in stomach contents.

Also, if this was suicide how/where/when did she get the liquid ami? Did her horse ever need it/use it? Are there records of any online purchases? Where are the syringe(s) used? Wouldn't they be there in the room with her? Or, if it wasn't injected but ingested, where is the container the liquid ami came in? Also, was there any evidence of vomiting? Someone mentioned (I can't recall who) that liquid ami was unpalatable and would likely cause vomiting.

I still don't buy suicide, though. And, I'm leaning towards thinking that this might have not necessarily been an intentional murder. After all, what do perps usually use "date rape" drugs for?? Could it have been just a dosage miscalculation on the perp's part?

---
Also, this isn't a rant, it's just me questioning and trying to figure things out....

 

[21merc7]

I think we discussed this in #2(the "doping" of racehorses that is), not sure though? I believe the outcome of the discussion was that, yes it was illegal in racing but not in recreational(?) riding. If someone could help me out with this reference TIA!

Last post by Morgan's Father in this post:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram: timeline, picture,media thread:

 

[Livvy]

Livvy here is the news thread. There were only a few (3 I think) articles written so far, I think they are all posted here.

The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram: timeline, picture,media thread: - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Thanks so much for your quick reply! I have seen those articles but it is Toni's story and about the blog. I really hope that others in Morgans life come out on her behalf if they really think she was murdered. Looking forward to future blogs and hopefully more evidence. Morgan was a lucky girl to have parents that will fight so hard for her no matter what really happened those 4 months.

 

[JaimeSommers]

yet with all that easy access to her away from the house, this 'stalker' chose to only go after her when she was locked in at home with her parents, dogs, and many security devices. That is confusing.

There was that car-keying incident at the college that some have interpreted as the start of the stalking. And that one night when she called home and said she was being followed. So, two away-from-home incidents that I remember being mentioned, though you're right that most occurred at home. Perhaps there were others that will be shared through the blog. Guess we'll see. :waitasec:

 

[fowltemptress]

Does anyone else think that there might be more MSM attention given to this case if it weren't an election year?

 

[21merc7]

Does anyone else think that there might be more MSM attention given to this case if it weren't an election year?

JMO, but no. I think there are too many complications with the only source at this point, and too little documentation at this point. I think they have done what they can, unless they want to investigate it themselves, I don't know if they can do that or not though. Hard to do much without any person(s) of interest to be able to name.

 

[laurafairlie]

Does anyone else think that there might be more MSM attention given to this case if it weren't an election year?

I think it is possible that MSM is taking a wait and see approach. The full story isn't out there yet, and there seems to be a lot up in the air re: getting attorneys involved, the possibility of a new or reopened investigation, etc. Several people have mentioned this is the type of story that is usually seen on Dateline or 48 hours types of programs, and i agree with that, but would think they'd want a more complete story before proceeding.

 

[Cazzie]

New blog post

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1333

I wonder if DS is the chosen writer for the book.

Just realized there was a previous one from today.

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1330

(Just an FYI; didn't see either of these posted yet)

 

[Woe.be.gone]

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20111205/OBITUARIES/111209927&mode=comments

Please go to 'comments' on Morgan's page. Does anybody see anything familiar? Not read but see?

 

[AndiLA]

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20111205/OBITUARIES/111209927&mode=comments

Please go to 'comments' on Morgan's page. Does anybody see anything familiar? Not read but see?

?? My brain is low on space, I guess. Nothing is popping out at me.

 

[21merc7]

http://www.aspentimes.com/article/20111205/OBITUARIES/111209927&mode=comments

Please go to 'comments' on Morgan's page. Does anybody see anything familiar? Not read but see?

The facebook photos????

 

[MayraMM]

New blog post

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1333

I thought mom didn't come over to WS. Those statistics are exactly the ones we were discussing yesterday about suicide in Pitkin and Garfield counties.

 

[iluvmua]

I want to know how in the world did this 'stalker' get into the house with her parents down the hall sleeping, two dogs in the house, security cameras outside, motion detector lights(s) outside, I assume more security features inside the house etc. find her room and give her drugs and kill her and then leave undetected?????

Someone needs to ask the mother this question.

I also assume they had a security system in the house as well.

 

[gitana1]

She could have easily gotten a new prescription for a mood stabilizer if she needed one, so why would she secretly buy/steal drugs she already had at home (and still had there after her death) rather than get something more effective? Her parents, friends and doctor did not believe she was depressed. I don't know about the friends, but the family, her doctor and Doctor Dobersen do not believe she committed suicide. I may think I'm pretty smart (once in a while), but I trust their opinions more than mine or those of anyone else who never knew her. MOO

BBM. That is an excellent point. One to seriously consider.

As to the rest, I kind of want to be careful here. Dr. Doberson stated that he would have classified the manner of death as undetermined. Not homicide, but undetermined. He stated that Morgan was n unlikely candidate for suicide and there were suspicious circumstances surrounding her death, hence, the "undetermined" classification.

But since it was undetermined and not homicide, that indicates to me that he just isn't sure and feels more information was needed or more forensic investigation needed to be done.

That sounds like the final result could be either homicide, suicide or accidental death of some sort but that suicide is not ruled out.

Also, believing a person was an unlikely candidate for suicide does not equate to believing the person did not commit suicide.

It's splitting hairs but it is very important in a case without much info.

again, if M could have gotten a legal prescription of ambien, she could have taken less ambien and gone to sleep peacefully but yet ami and a few other drugs in the mix, that M never had, prescribed and to top if off, M hated to take PILLS! If you hate to take pills and you want to commit suicide by pills you opt for one that you have to take less of. DOH!

It isn't accidental overdose either because these pills were not in her home. M was not the type of person that was into drugs at all. If you read her blog, and took the time to view her photo's she was all about life. To go on the theory of maybe a friend gave them to her to help her sleep. It doesn't work because no pills in the stomach! That theory is out the door if you ask me. She also wouldn't have been able to drive home that night, or speak to her father, or text. No she was in her bedroom when it happened. I think she was injected in a spot that the Coroner never even looked.

It doesn't take a mastermind to figure how a hiding spot to inject someone!

BBM. Here again I kind of want to be careful. To my knowledge, the parents never said Morgan hated to take pills. After all, she was treated with amitryptilline for 6 years or so, according to Dr. Doberson's report.

Her parents said she did not like to be on medication. That is different from not liking a certain form of medication. And it possiblymakes a big difference here.

So you think sleeping on the floor in your parents closet (due to the actions of a stalker) seems normal? Nothing about this seems "normal". First off one would board up the windows before sleeping in their parents closet. <modsnip>

Heck, if I was being stalked like that at that age, I'd be in the bed with my parents! I'm sure lot's of people would find that weird, bizarre, immature. But I would feel safer!

I can tell you what happened in a couple of cases I know intimately. After taking 25 50mg TCAs, the symptoms within an hour were: blurred vision, confusion, extreme dry mouth, nausea, loss of balance. No loss of consciousness, but treatment began within about 90 minutes of taking them.

After taking over 60 100mg anticholinergics, the symptoms within 90 minutes to 2 hours were: extremely high blood pressure (the highest reading I remember was 349/198, they had really expected a heart attack or stroke, but it was a healthy 17 year old), palpitations (pulse of 190+), grand mal seisures, memory loss, hallucinations, problems speaking, inability to stand up, loss of muscle control (arms and legs jerking, eyes rolling back into the head, etc.), unresponsive to most stimuli, no actual unconsciousness, and probably others I'm forgetting.

Neither of these were amitriptyline toxicity, but they were both from very similar drugs. I'm sure one of the medical people could say how similar they are. MOO

I OD'd on the drug when I was a hideous teenager, wanting to get "high". (How stupid, I know.)

It was not a fun "high". It was not a high at all. I practically crawled home from a friend's house. I had my pillow in my arms and it felt like it weighed a thousand pounds. I felt that I was in a strange dream and could not wake up, like I was dreaming or having a nightmare, rather than walking down the street.

I got home and slept for 2 days. My mom tried to wake me a few times but ultimately just let me sleep. She was worried but probably thought I was hung over.

Now I realize how close to dying I probably came, how easy it would have been for my mom to find me dead in the bed.

I think I took about 6 pills. But I can't be sure.

 

[AbcInAthens]

I also assume they had a security system in the house as well.

Nope. No security system in the house.