CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #4

[Lera213]

again, if M could have gotten a legal prescription of ambien, she could have taken less ambien and gone to sleep peacefully but yet ami and a few other drugs in the mix, that M never had, prescribed and to top if off, M hated to take PILLS! If you hate to take pills and you want to commit suicide by pills you opt for one that you have to take less of. DOH!

It isn't accidental overdose either because these pills were not in her home. M was not the type of person that was into drugs at all. If you read her blog, and took the time to view her photo's she was all about life. To go on the theory of maybe a friend gave them to her to help her sleep. It doesn't work because no pills in the stomach! That theory is out the door if you ask me. She also wouldn't have been able to drive home that night, or speak to her father, or text. No she was in her bedroom when it happened. I think she was injected in a spot that the Coroner never even looked.

It doesn't take a mastermind to figure how a hiding spot to inject someone!

 

[laurafairlie]

For the record I do not think she just was depressed either. I have been clinically depressed and while I had dark thoughts a plenty, I never hid in closets or heard tapping on the windows.

We have been told that she was sleeping on the floor of the walk in closet in her parents' room for a time and that she did eventually return to sleeping in her own room of her own accord. She was active during this time frame, going out during the day to dance classes, to babysit, to see friends. It is not at all my impression that she was hiding in the closet cowering in fear.

 

[deca]

Is it possible the stalker intended to rape/terrorize or even kidnap Morgan instead of kill her?

IDK all this drug stuff...but lets say he wanted to give her a high dose to silence her or knock her out- then he would gag her and wait for her to wake up- scare the living @#$! out of her, possibly rape her and then leave. This stalker seems to like to show the I's that HE is in control and this would be a perfect way to do it.

The other scenario would be he would drug her and take her somewhere else- but I really don't see that happening (how would you move a person that drugged up through the window and out of the house? Maybe walk through the house pretending like she was taking the dog out for a pee??)

Anyways, the "accidental" murder scenario would fit in with some of the complaints posters have had...(no forced suicide note)

 

[Lera213]

OT, I'm having issues with keyboard and mouse...had to reverse mouse button and OMG.

 

[Confusion]

Or because perhaps death wasn't the intended result?

I've searched and searched, but has anyone determined what the equivalent pill count would have been for the amount of drugs found in her system? There was discussion about it being the equivalent to hundreds of pills, then another person said just a few pills, and I never saw any consensus on this? Forgive me if I missed it - I really did search!

Can someone help me out on this? I know they found no pills in her stomach, but if she had taken the drugs in pill form, how many would she have had to take?

TIA!

I had posted back a page or two that the only thing I could find was that you can't really know for sure unless you know the time the pills were taken (in order to know how much of it had been metabolized by the time of death) and the time of death (not just between midnight and 5am for example, it would have to be that someone witnessed the death.) I don't believe it's even been said that she died after the EMTs got there or if she had been dead for a while and couldn't be revived.

 

[cluciano63]

To get away with it?

Bu again...motive?
And to put oneself in danger of being caught in so many apparent stalking incidents, and then go ahead and creep inside and do a secret murder that no one will know is a murder? None of it makes sense.

 

[JBean]

Or because perhaps death wasn't the intended result?

I've searched and searched, but has anyone determined what the equivalent pill count would have been for the amount of drugs found in her system? There was discussion about it being the equivalent to hundreds of pills, then another person said just a few pills, and I never saw any consensus on this? Forgive me if I missed it - I really did search!

Can someone help me out on this? I know they found no pills in her stomach, but if she had taken the drugs in pill form, how many would she have had to take?

TIA!

I do not think this can be determined with certainty absent specialized expert analysis. There are all kinds of problems with extrapolating antemortem dosages with postmortem values.
Perhaps an expert could give us a reasonable range.
Even in a case like this where the sample may have been taken from an optimal site within and optimal time frame- making the effects of redistribution minimal- it is still a complex determination.

JMHO of course.

 

[Confusion]

Is it possible the stalker intended to rape/terrorize or even kidnap Morgan instead of kill her?

IDK all this drug stuff...but lets say he wanted to give her a high dose to silence her or knock her out- then he would gag her and wait for her to wake up- scare the living @#$! out of her, possibly rape her and then leave. This stalker seems to like to show the I's that HE is in control and this would be a perfect way to do it.

The other scenario would be he would drug her and take her somewhere else- but I really don't see that happening (how would you move a person that drugged up through the window and out of the house? Maybe walk through the house pretending like she was taking the dog out for a pee??)

Anyways, the "accidental" murder scenario would fit in with some of the complaints posters have had...(no forced suicide note)

That's very possible (IMO), especially if someone had given her the Dalmane or Flexeril to help her sleep. It would have made the other drugs more potent, or it's possible that the guy just had no idea what he was doing.

 

[steff13]

Does anyone know how these drugs might have caused death? Would she have just drifted off to sleep? If not, and they caused her to feel unwell prior to her death, I wonder why she didn't use the panic button to alert her parents something was wrong?

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk 2

 

[21merc7]

Medication question.

Since the other medication(s) not in the doctor letter were said to be trace amounts, could that mean they were taken a few days before and residual amounts were still in her system?

ETA: Link to post with doctor's letter:

http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?p=1137

 

[Sonya610]

We have been told that she was sleeping on the floor of the walk in closet in her parents' room for a time and that she did eventually return to sleeping in her own room of her own accord.

So you think sleeping on the floor in your parents closet (due to the actions of a stalker) seems normal? Nothing about this seems "normal". First off one would board up the windows before sleeping in their parents closet. <modsnip>

 

[JBean]

So you think sleeping on the floor in your parents closet (due to the actions of a stalker) seems normal?

Hi Sonya- have you read the blog yet? I think it might answer some of your questions regarding the closet.
hth

 

[browntabby1226]

Is it common to check for those drugs on a tox screen?

 

[laurafairlie]

Does anyone know how these drugs might have caused death? Would she have just drifted off to sleep? If not, and they caused her to feel unwell prior to her death, I wonder why she didn't use the panic button to alert her parents something was wrong?

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk 2

It seems like from what I gather from previous discussions, that the dalmane and flexeril could have been used to make the process "easier" (for lack of a better word). This could be true in either suicide or murder. (IMO). I will admit that I did not read the articles explaining how this works exactly, so perhaps someone who did will weigh in with more detail.

 

[laurafairlie]

So you think sleeping on the floor in your parents closet (due to the actions of a stalker) seems normal? Nothing about this seems "normal". First off one would board up the windows before sleeping in their parents closet. <modsnip>.

Nothing about being stalked is normal. There is no universally appropriate reaction to cope with being stalked or bullied or harassed. I am sure that the Ingrams hoped at the point when she started sleeping in the closet (which if I recall was fairly early in the sequence of events) that it would be resolved quickly and the person would be caught and things could go back to normal.

Also, it seems to me that the Ingrams did try to catch this person, but weren't able to do so.

 

[Confusion]

Does anyone know how these drugs might have caused death? Would she have just drifted off to sleep? If not, and they caused her to feel unwell prior to her death, I wonder why she didn't use the panic button to alert her parents something was wrong?

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk 2

I can tell you what happened in a couple of cases I know intimately. After taking 25 50mg TCAs, the symptoms within an hour were: blurred vision, confusion, extreme dry mouth, nausea, loss of balance. No loss of consciousness, but treatment began within about 90 minutes of taking them.

After taking over 60 100mg anticholinergics, the symptoms within 90 minutes to 2 hours were: extremely high blood pressure (the highest reading I remember was 349/198, they had really expected a heart attack or stroke, but it was a healthy 17 year old), palpitations (pulse of 190+), grand mal seisures, memory loss, hallucinations, problems speaking, inability to stand up, loss of muscle control (arms and legs jerking, eyes rolling back into the head, etc.), unresponsive to most stimuli, no actual unconsciousness, and probably others I'm forgetting.

Neither of these were amitriptyline toxicity, but they were both from very similar drugs. I'm sure one of the medical people could say how similar they are. MOO

 

[Confusion]

Nothing about being stalked is normal. There is no universally appropriate reaction to cope with being stalked or bullied or harassed. I am sure that the Ingrams hoped at the point when she started sleeping in the closet (which if I recall was fairly early in the sequence of events) that it would be resolved quickly and the person would be caught and things could go back to normal.

Also, it seems to me that the Ingrams did try to catch this person, but weren't able to do so.

ITA When I was 19, I came home from work at 2am and found my back door kicked in (but all of my money still sitting on the table in plain sight). I didn't move to the closet; I spent the night at my parents' house, and packed my stuff the following day. I talked to a friend who owned some apartment buildings in a different town, and was moved out before the next night. Probably a bit extreme to most people, but having that come on top of people knocking on my doors in the middle of the night (not my windows), leaving things on the steps (rat poison, a dead cat, obituaries clipped from the newspaper, photos of cemeteries, among other things), I wasn't going to trust a new deadbolt to make any difference.

Again, it never occurred to me back then that these things might be a crime; I just considered them to be uncomfortable. I was sure I knew who it was, and why he did it. A guy a few years older than me lived across the road from me (about 1/2 mile out of town), and he had asked me several times to go out with him. I know he got very upset when I finally told him to stop asking because I was never going to change my mind. The knocking, etc. started within a couple of days.

 

[fowltemptress]

I agree that the fatal amitriptyline overdose may have been accidental on the part of the person(s) administering it, i.e. death that night was not the intended outcome. That would fit the stalker's MO to a tee, since most of the common side effects are things that might make someone think they are going crazy...kind of like the 50ish stalker incidents with little or no proof...JMO

Prior knowledge of her being prescribed this drug might have been the icing on the cake so to speak. If it was someone or someone close to someone in her circle of friends, maybe they had heard her off hand mention a year and a half previous, some unpleasant side effect that made her want to stop taking it, something only mildly irritating that she might not have shared with her parents. Something like a sexual side effect maybe?

The jealousy of a "mean girl" fits the profile of someone who would want to bully/scare M into hiding or leaving, death probably wasn't considered as a probable outcome of a one time dose, maybe her committing suicide after receiving the drug on a consistent basis-what bully would complain especially if they thought they covered their tracks well enough and it was obviously by her own hand? That appears to be one of the biggest side effect warnings of tricyclic antidepressants, "You may have thoughts about suicide while taking an antidepressant, especially if you are younger than 24 years old."

http://www.drugs.com/amitriptyline.html

As always, JMO

 

[21merc7]

Does anyone know how these drugs might have caused death? Would she have just drifted off to sleep? If not, and they caused her to feel unwell prior to her death, I wonder why she didn't use the panic button to alert her parents something was wrong?

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk 2

Here's a good article on overdose with it, not graphic in any way. It seems other meds can be given to counter the effects:

http://www.mhra.gov.uk/Howweregulat...nericoverdosesections/Amitriptyline/index.htm


I have found quite a few articles on how easy it is to o.d. on this accidentally, I'm afraid to ever take any meds now!

 

[mysterygirl]

We can quibble about Morgan's death but IMO this guy is not going to stop.