CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #5

[Waterdogs]

If M was murdered it probably would have been very shortly before going to sleep, before she had time to change clothes. Did something happen that night that prompted her to sneak out for awhile and could she be the one parents claim to be on the camera?
If she was in jammys it makes no sense whatsoever a killer would take the time to dress her and risk being caught.

Mom said in the radio interview,as she was describing what Steve saw when he went in to talk to Morgan, "...he thought she was in her jammies." But like I said upthread, what he thought he saw is open to interpretation. Her clothes could have looked like jammies to him. IMO, she was never in what one would normally think of as jammies.

 

[Waterdogs]

Since she was dressed maybe something happened after dad talked to her and she decided to chuck it all? If dad really did see her in her pj's why did she get dressed? Maybe that can be verified Sunday night on the radio show.

I listened to the radio interview again, and a bit after the 55:30 mark, mom said that Steve said that M was worried about being contagious and wanted to call in. Steve told her she should just wait until morning, but she didn't like that idea as she didn't want to call in last minute. She brought it up to him and he told her to wait to call. (paraphrased)

 

[Sonya610]

Apparently Tagamet (over the counter antacid) is the magic ingredient that will make the cocktail fatal in 12 hours or less. This may have already been discussed but was that showing up in her tox screen?

Or would it even be tested for? It changes the liver enzymes which makes the amitriptylin work much faster and hit much harder.

If this were a suicide she probably googled it before trying it, doesn't sound like she could just OD on amitriptylin without getting very ill for quite some time, since it can cause seizures and other things it would be very noticeable.

 

[wondering?]

She had gone out on a special date earlier that night, right?
Green jeans and a white t don't sound like a special date outfit.
Maybe she did change.

I thought that the special date was planned for the next day.
Did I hear/read that right?

 

[Waterdogs]

Yeah but the overdose symptoms show up within an hour or so.

I haven't researched drugs nearly as much as others, if that "up to 36 hour" window is accurate then I don't see how this could possibly be a murder. You can't drug someone and then let them run around for 36 hours expecting that they won't get medical attention.

Is it possible she tried this the day before, and the levels weren't high enough, so she took MORE and that put her over the edge? Or did she have one of the other drugs in her system that cuts the time down to 6-12 hours?

Dr K said minutes to hours til death
Dr D says 30 minutes

 

[SmoothOperator]

p

BBM ~ I'm attaching a link to the autopsy report to point out that Kutzman doesn't say 'minutes to an hour' but 'minutes to hours'. He left a wide margin of time open from the time the drugs entered M's body until the time she died.

****NO DISCUSSION****Morgan Ingram's Autopsy Report - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

look right above OTHER SIGNIFICANT CONDITIONS near the top of the report

Yep you are correct..I dont recalll who but someone had poinwted this out last night and i saw it after I had posted but it was almost 3am bere in my neck of the woods and I honestly didnt have the energy to edit my post..lol..thanks again for reminding me.. Kurtzman seems completely reluctant to even in the most general of ways to even give a slight indicator of whapt he believes her TOD to be...

Satates no TOD on the autopsy as well as just as you point out above leaves the amount of time from ingestion to death wide open from mins to hours...??.why is that?

Imo especially due to the fact that the body was found so early it imo is mind boggling that the mE is unable or unwilling to give any thing remotely indicating when possibly her death occurred..

Whicah is one of the few details that have me the most unsettled..jmo.

*plz forgive excessive typos my tablett is acting wonky:crazy:

 

[MayraMM]

That just doesn't sound like she was planning suicide at all. If I knew I wasn't waking up in the morn, I'd have dad cancel.

Sounds like she wanted to cancel, but dad wanted her to wait and see how she felt.

 

[K.jill]

I thought that the special date was planned for the next day.
Did I hear/read that right?

I thought the date was for earlier that night but I might be mistaken.

 

[concernedmother]

I thought the date was for earlier that night but I might be mistaken.

She spent the evening with new BF. On the way home she stopped by old BF and talked to a friend.Old BF didnt come out.

 

[Waterdogs]

I thought that the special date was planned for the next day.
Did I hear/read that right?

After just listening again, mom describes her getting dressed up after lunch time (Morgan didn't eat lunch, though) to go spend time with her friend D. She was in a good mood, really happy, blasting her music while she was getting dressed. She left in her mom's car. 2 hours later mom texts with no response. 4 hrs total went by with no response. Steve got home at 6. They leave to go find her and dad texts her around 6 to entice her out with dinner at her favorite restaurant. She responds, but she is not hungry. At 8:45 mom texts again, and Morgan says she is on her way home and gets home shortly after 9:00 pm.

Mom yells at her that she was worried sick, Morgan yells back and goes to her room, Mom sends Steve to go talk to her, and so on...

 

[AbbeyR]

Mom said in the radio interview,as she was describing what Steve saw when he went in to talk to Morgan, "...he thought she was in her jammies." But like I said upthread, what he thought he saw is open to interpretation. Her clothes could have looked like jammies to him. IMO, she was never in what one would normally think of as jammies.

I think on the radio show, mom was trying to make the point that despite Morgan coming home late and arguing with her mom, that it seemed to her like a normal night. Morgan talked to her dad and then went to bed. The 'jammies' detail was probably added in or assumed, since mom didn't go into her room that night, and when Dad did, she was sitting in the dark.

It makes sense that she was likely still wearing the same clothes she had worn that night at the time she talked to dad. We don't know what went through her head and whether she had already decided to take pills at that point or if that was a decision made in the next few hours, so it's hard to imagine how she would or should have acted in that conversation. But assuming that is what happened, then I don't think it's so strange that she was still in her clothes. She didn't change into pyjamas because she was not getting ready for bed.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

The color of her outfit doesn't mean anything, except that she was in style, which is irrelevent. Bright colored skinny jeans were in stye in 2011 and still are in style. The white t-shirt could have been what she wore under a nicer sweater and she took it off when she got home. The blue socks could have been put on when she got home, or considering it was cold out, could have been worn under nice, trendy boots. None of this matters, except she wasn't wearing jammies like her mother said. Even what are considered jammies is open to interpretation. The dad could have thought they were. I can see him not knowing the difference. And purple toe nail polish only means she liked purple!

TI said that Steve thinks Morgan was in her jammies. That's considered hearsay on Toni's part. Also, Steve may think a white t-shirt and skinny jeans (if they were skinny jeans) look like jammies or something M might sleep in. Again, we don't have enough information.
Steve could chime in if he has a definitive answer though.

My husband wouldn't know a jammie from a t-shirt and some pants I threw on though - just saying.
And I say that in context like if he was asked in hindsight what someone (me or kid) was wearing under similar circumstances.

 

[Waterdogs]

Yes, mom did say that the spat was not unusual and she laughed as she said that, and then said that she, "didn't take it to heart."

 

[Waterdogs]

TI said that Steve thinks Morgan was in her jammies. That's considered hearsay on Toni's part. Also, Steve may think a white t-shirt and skinny jeans (if they were skinny jeans) look like jammies or something M might sleep in. Again, we don't have enough information.
Steve could chime in if he has a definitive answer though.

My husband wouldn't know a jammie from a t-shirt and some pants I threw on though - just saying.
And I say that in context like if he was asked in hindsight what someone (me or kid) was wearing under similar circumstances.

Thanks, woe, but I did clarify what I meant later in the thread.
When I said, "Mom said..." I meant she said that in the radio interview.

Yes, it is hearsay on Toni's part.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Could have been different mg.

Still does not explain how an EMT would know if the 'appropriate' number of pills were missing on prescriptions that old, and if both bottles were full, why would she have two prescriptions for different strengths of the same med, yet not have taken a single pill?

It's not impossible, but it doesn't seem likely. It just seems odd.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Mom said in the radio interview,as she was describing what Steve saw when he went in to talk to Morgan, "...he thought she was in her jammies." But like I said upthread, what he thought he saw is open to interpretation. Her clothes could have looked like jammies to him. IMO, she was never in what one would normally think of as jammies.

Wouldn't you have to see the clothes though to make that determination?
When I was younger, I frequently slept in a white t-shirt that belonged to my husband. Still, not unusual to sleep in t-shirts. For instance the gamma one M can be seen wearing in a picture of her sitting on a balcony when she was out of town with her parents. I'd sleep in that when I was young.

 

[Moxie Vi]

That just doesn't sound like she was planning suicide at all. If I knew I wasn't waking up in the morn, I'd have dad cancel.

I agree. I just recently discharged from a psych program because of issues with depression and SO many of M's actions are contradictory to what I saw in other patients or experienced myself. I'm just thinking about how resilient she seems in her texts and her high level of daily activity. It seems like she was a busy girl. Both the resiliency and the level of activity wouldn't be expected if suicidal. I'm familiar with the upbeat second wind that depressed people may get prior to attempting suicide but 50+ days is a long time to keep that up. I also dont think that she was pretending to be positive, at least I hope not, it's so exhausting.

I'm still keeping my mind open until we reach the conclusion. I am prone towards giving the Ingram's the benefit of doubt because I remember how hopeless I felt when I was stalked but didn't have any concrete evidence. I only had my word that he managed to get into my gated community and that I didnt buzz him in. Fortunatelly my involving the cops made him back off. The lack of evidence is a big issue with stalking cases as a whole. I'm hopeful that the video of that night and maybe some other evidence will be supplied soon. One thing is for certain, if any video or non-circumstancial evidence is in existence it's due to the tenacity of the parents.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Thanks, woe, but I did clarify what I meant later in the thread.
When I said, "Mom said..." I meant she said that in the radio interview.

Yes, it is hearsay on Toni's part.

Sorry, I saw that. Okay everybody stop posting for about an hour (or two) so I can catch up. LOL!

 

[FrayedKnot]

I had written up some similar info last night then, but nobody seemed too interested so I deleted it. Thanks for posting this today; I think it's important to know that amitriptyline can cause suidal ideations in children and young adults. I also think it's important to know that CO toxicity can cause permanent symptoms, including depression and anxiety and could cause someone to turn to antidepressants at times. MOO and My Own Spelling!



I wonder why, then, it was made to sound so unusual to have high doses in your system with no pills or fragments in your stomach. Thanks for the response.

I THINK the amounts we were previously discussing were MUCH less than what the tox report actually showed. But the amounts listed in the tox report were in ng, not mg. so the amounts were substantially less than assumed. Still lethal, but not the massive quantity previous discussed.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I suppose the issue regarding M fearing she was getting sick and discusssing with dad concern for kids she was to babysit is one that is obviously widely varying in interpretating what was said..some believe Morgan was consciously/subconsciously attempting to take care of a responsibility that she likely planned not being around for..the babysitting..

I am one who did not at all read or understand that as what occurred and even now in going back to hear it I still dont come away with that belief that Morgan was attempting to go ahead and cancel her bbsitting job for in the morning..and dad thwarted that attempt in telling her to wait..

I read into it as she spoke to dad about how she felt the posssible beginnings of a cold and if she was in fact going to be sick therefor naturally worried about being contagious around the kids(and note she was to be bbsitting for the kids Friday-Sunday..this wasnt just a couple hours of bbsitting but rather the whole weekend)..M and dad discussed the possibility of M maybe needing to cancel and she said that too bothered her in that she would be cancelling on short notice with mom left with no bbsitter for the kids all weekend..(so Morgan was worried about her cough actually turning into something contagious and didnt wanna get kids sick..but at the same time worried about cancelling and leaving the mom at last min with no bbsitter)..Steve suggested they just wait til morning before getting worried about any of it..wait til morning to see how she felt then..

So, imo just as I mentioned earlier amazing in that many of us read, hear, or see the exact same situation, words, actions and yet come away with two totally and completely different interpretations of what we read, heard, or saw.. And the above interpretation is very different from those that believe Morgan was attempting to cancel her responsibility and that dad unknowingly thwarted her being able to do so(of course paraphrased using my words)..

I guess this is just another of many issues in which we'll all just ahve to agree to disagree on the interpretation and meaning of the last exchange between M and dad..

All jmo

*excuse overload of typos*