Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

[Jilly1059]

Or, they could have run the cord out under the door and pulled her up against it.


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[questfortrue]

Is the device used actually a garrotte? My understanding is that a garrotte is actually a piece of cord between two sticks and used in the following fashion...

View attachment 72550

From what I can tell, the device used on JB seems to be more of a noose with a single stick for gripping purposes.

Whether the stick was for gripping purposes or not, I'd agree the device does not appear like what one typically conceives as a "garrote."

FWIW, during an interview with Smit JR referenced this tool as a “twister”. IIRC, that was a slang/alternate term used to describe a style of garrote used in executions. From Wikipedia - A stick may be used to tighten the garrote; the Spanish word actually refers to the stick itself, so it is a pars pro toto where the eponymous component may actually be absent. In Spanish, the term may also refer to a rope and stick used to constrict a limb as a torture device in the 1800s. (IMO, this device certainly does add a “foreign” flavor to the unimaginably sad image of JonBenet’s death.)

In Kolar’s AMA he states it is his belief that the strangulation was not “staging”. But it was unclear to me if he is describing the entire device (ligature+stick/garrote-looking device) or is simply referencing the cord ligature as intentional (omitting whether the stick served as a handle or as the "twister" style garrote, or was necessary to the strangulation at all).

 

[otg]

Hey otg, im confused about the photo link, I have seen the more graphic one you mentioned, which shows her whole face to the side and the place on her shoulder, but im confused about the one you mentioned being on NBC. Is she on her back (face looking to the right, call me crazy lol, but I cannot tell) but it looks like there is another "abrasion" on her neck, like on her face. And also on her chin as well. Im just confused about what im supposed to be looking for

Actually, you don't have to look for anything in that one screen capture, elannia. Too much is obscured, and the low resolution makes it almost useless. The only point in posting it was to give a little history about that particular autopsy photo.

I too struggled with understanding what it was when I first saw it years ago. It is oriented with JonBenet lying on her left side. Her head would be to the right in the photo facing downward, and on the left side of the picture you'll see the upper portion of her right shoulder with the abraded contusion visible. You can also see the ligature still in place around her neck. At the bottom of the screen capture you'll see the NBC emblem (a peacock) and the time and temperature at the time of the broadcast. The other photo is oriented at 90[SUP]○[/SUP] to this one as if she is standing up.

(I think) the other "abrasion" you think you might be seeing is the lower part of her right ear (in the NBC screen capture). If you look at the more graphic version of this photo, you can see the livor mortis present in her ear and the apparent blanched areas on the ridges where it may have been touching the floor.

 

[otg]

(sbm)

As far as I can tell this is poster’s opinion only.

:lol:That's probably the reason that poster wrote "(IMOO, of course)" at the end of the sentence.

 

[otg]

Is the device used actually a garrotte? My understanding is that a garrotte is actually a piece of cord between two sticks and used in the following fashion...


From what I can tell, the device used on JB seems to be more of a noose with a single stick for gripping purposes.

I take it you didn't bother reading the very first post in this thread.

 

[otg]

Thats what I figured. So likely there would be some bruising, as with that type of device you would need to hold her body down while pulling up on the cord for a significant period of time (I believe Paul Bernardo put the number at 8 minutes). Where there bruises on her back or shoulders?

Actually, assuming a person is conscious (not also struck over the head), it only takes about 10 to 15 seconds before the lack of oxygenated blood to the brain (hypoxia) causes unconsciousness. That's the same mechanism used by LE to subdue someone with a "choke hold". There is a term for it in "martial arts" (that I don't remember at the moment). In most competitive MA bouts it is forbidden.

 

[andreww]

Actually, assuming a person is conscious (not also struck over the head), it only takes about 10 to 15 seconds before the lack of oxygenated blood to the brain (hypoxia) causes unconsciousness. That's the same mechanism used by LE to subdue someone with a "choke hold". There is a term for it in "martial arts" (that I don't remember at the moment). In most competitive MA bouts it is forbidden.

I'm talking about causing death nit unconsciousness.

 

[Anti-K]

Thats what I figured. So likely there would be some bruising, as with that type of device you would need to hold her body down while pulling up on the cord for a significant period of time (I believe Paul Bernardo put the number at 8 minutes). Where there bruises on her back or shoulders?

You would only have to pull the cord for a second or two and then you can let go. It remains tight. Hours and hours and hours later it remained tight. The evidence is clear on this point.
...

AK

 

[Anti-K]

(sbm) :lol:That's probably the reason that poster wrote "(IMOO, of course)" at the end of the sentence.

Yes, but Jilly1059 is a new poster, and new posters don’t always know the meaning of things like IMOO. And, when the opinion being offered is contrary to what is factually known, then making sure that one is aware that it is only poster opinion becomes, I think, quite important. There was no offence intended. You’re entitled to your opinion.
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AK

 

[Jilly1059]

I really don't care what IMOO stands for, in my official opinion we are all working together toward a common goal and nobody is more important than anyone else!


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[BBB167893]

IMO the garrote was used to avoid leaving the hand marks that would have resulted in a manual strangulation. Would someone from a foreign faction be concerned about such things? Maybe. Would the Ramsey's be concerned? Certainly.


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More than that, there are much more efficient ways to strangle someone with cord.

 

[BBB167893]

Whether the stick was for gripping purposes or not, I'd agree the device does not appear like what one typically conceives as a "garrote."

FWIW, during an interview with Smit JR referenced this tool as a “twister”. IIRC, that was a slang/alternate term used to describe a style of garrote used in executions. From Wikipedia - A stick may be used to tighten the garrote; the Spanish word actually refers to the stick itself, so it is a pars pro toto where the eponymous component may actually be absent. In Spanish, the term may also refer to a rope and stick used to constrict a limb as a torture device in the 1800s. (IMO, this device certainly does add a “foreign” flavor to the unimaginably sad image of JonBenet’s death.)

The Spanish were still using such a weapon to execute condemned criminals up until the late 1800s. One of their former colonies is the Phillipines. And who do we know was stationed there in the Navy???

In Kolar’s AMA he states it is his belief that the strangulation was not “staging”. But it was unclear to me if he is describing the entire device (ligature+stick/garrote-looking device) or is simply referencing the cord ligature as intentional (omitting whether the stick served as a handle or as the "twister" style garrote, or was necessary to the strangulation at all).

With respect to Kolar, if the killer thought JB was dead, it is staging, since it was not intended to kill.

 

[BBB167893]

You would only have to pull the cord for a second or two and then you can let go. It remains tight. Hours and hours and hours later it remained tight. The evidence is clear on this point.
...

AK

But, how much of that tightening was due to post-mortem swelling?

 

[questfortrue]

The Spanish were still using such a weapon to execute condemned criminals up until the late 1800s. One of their former colonies is the Phillipines. And who do we know was stationed there in the Navy???

With respect to Kolar, if the killer thought JB was dead, it is staging, since it was not intended to kill.

Agree with your comments. And I know you’re not “hinting” at who was stationed where. 

When I read Kolar’s opinion as the strangulation not being part of a cover-up or staging, I read it as LE stating a fact of death by strangulation. However, it did appear as though Kolar had a theory about the motivation of the person involved with this ligature, but was reticent to say more. My assumption was that his reluctance to address the rationale behind the ligature cord/garrote or behind the motivation for that aspect of the crime was for legal reasons. He has stated more than once that he developed a theory of what may have happened after evaluating all the evidence, and that he also assigned who did what according to this theory. (Too bad we don't have accesss to his 20 page analysis of the crime!)

 

[Anti-K]

But, how much of that tightening was due to post-mortem swelling?

If we’re to believe the AR, virtually none. Zip, zero, zilch, nada.
...

AK

 

[BBB167893]

If we’re to believe the AR, virtually none. Zip, zero, zilch, nada.
...

AK

I wonder. It was, what, twelve hours between death and being "found," wasn't it?

 

[Anti-K]

I wonder. It was, what, twelve hours between death and being "found," wasn't it?

No post mortem bloat or selling noted in the autopsy.
.

I know there are some – a few, not many – who seem to think that the ligature is embedded because of post mortem swelling or post mortem bloat.

One version has it that the asphyxiation was staged and the ligature simply tied around the victim’s neck as snug as can be and the other version has it that, although the victim was actually strangled, this happened with the ligature initially at a lower location, then, the ligature, after death, somehow shifts position upwards on the neck. In both scenarios, post-mortem swelling and/or bloat become necessary explanations for the embedded ligature.

However, in this case, there is no bloat, and there is no meaningful (if any) post-mortem swelling. So, these explanations and those versions which appeal to it should be abandoned. The evidence is what the evidence is.

NOTE: while it remains true that in some cases post-mortem swelling can serve to pronounce the appearance of an embedded ligature, this post-mortem swelling occurs around the area of injury (the already tightened and embedded ligature) and is not likely to occur around a ligature that is simply snug (no injury) or, loose enough upon the neck that it can somehow shift, after death, from a lower position to a higher one. Regardless, no such post-mortem swelling has been shown to exist.
...

AK

 

[BBB167893]

No post mortem bloat or selling noted in the autopsy.

I know there are some – a few, not many – who seem to think that the ligature is embedded because of post mortem swelling or post mortem bloat.

I know one, but he's since passed on.

One version has it that the asphyxiation was staged and the ligature simply tied around the victim’s neck as snug as can be and the other version has it that, although the victim was actually strangled, this happened with the ligature initially at a lower location, then, the ligature, after death, somehow shifts position upwards on the neck. In both scenarios, post-mortem swelling and/or bloat become necessary explanations for the embedded ligature.

However, in this case, there is no bloat, and there is no meaningful (if any) post-mortem swelling. So, these explanations and those versions which appeal to it should be abandoned. The evidence is what the evidence is.

NOTE: while it remains true that in some cases post-mortem swelling can serve to pronounce the appearance of an embedded ligature, this post-mortem swelling occurs around the area of injury (the already tightened and embedded ligature) and is not likely to occur around a ligature that is simply snug (no injury) or, loose enough upon the neck that it can somehow shift, after death, from a lower position to a higher one. Regardless, no such post-mortem swelling has been shown to exist.

Doesn't make much difference to me one way or the other.

 

[Anti-K]

I know one, but he's since passed on.



Doesn't make much difference to me one way or the other.

Delmar the fraud? Yes, well, he got too many things wrong for me to even remember. I corresponded with him a few times and took many (most) of his challenges and tied his knots. The man knew virtually nothing about physics and anyone and everyone can see this for themselves simply by doing as I did.
...

AK

 

[BBB167893]

Delmar the fraud? Yes, well, he got too many things wrong for me to even remember. I corresponded with him a few times and took many (most) of his challenges and tied his knots. The man knew virtually nothing about physics and anyone and everyone can see this for themselves simply by doing as I did.
...

AK

Like I said, makes no difference to me.