CT CT - Barbara Hamburg, 48, Madison, 3 Mar 2010

[isabella88]

A while back, I came across a Connecticut Court of Appeals ruling on whether a substitute party could continue Barbara Hamburg's litigation against Jeffrey Hamburg re: unpaid past due child support (referenced as "child support arrears"), unreimbursed medical expenses, tuition, educational costs, and $266,500 Jeffrey Hamburg removed from the children's educational accounts, among other financial issues. FindLaw's Appellate Court of Connecticut case and opinions.

Compare what Jeffrey Hamburg owed his ex-wife to the gifting tables where each member "gifts" (pays/invests) $5,000 in hopes of receiving up to $40,000, and there's no comparison.

I don't get any sort of weird vibe off of Aunt Jill. She's hurt the family refuses to have anything to do with her, but she freely admitted what went on with the gifting tables. From Madison's research, Jill's account of what went on with the gifting tables is factual as to the transactions and people involved, but wrong as to the law.

The gifting table scam is the same structure as the "Secret Santa" gift exchange that was circulating on Facebook last month. On the face, it may sound innocent, but it's a pyramid scheme.
ATTORNEY GENERAL ALERT: Popular Secret Santa Scam is Back on Social Media | Arkansas Attorney General

BBB Scam Alert: Social media gift exchange is an illegal pyramid scheme

Thank you for these posts! A lot to think about. I really appreciate your expertise.

 

[newsatfive]

I'm surprised Jeffrey Hamburg was able to accrue such a large amount of child support arrears. I am baffled as to why the parties' decree didn't require child support be enforced through income withholding by state division of child support enforcement.

Although Jeffrey was unemployed at the time of the decree of divorce, he sued his former employer and was awarded $4,734,313. Had the state division of child support been required to enforce child support, the state would have seized Jeffrey's settlement in order to satisfy the child support arrears.

Jeffrey's overseas business dealings that were allegedly "on paper only" may have been an attempt by Jeffrey to hide assets and income, in order to avoid garnishment for child support and other past-due financial obligations.

I am baffled as to why the decree didn't require enforcement and collection. Barbara could have requested the division of child support in the state where she was residing to enforce the order of child support, which may have discouraged Jeffrey from blaming Barbara for the litigation and potentially, saved her life.

 

[Jackielee09]

I watched the first episode of the documentary “murder on middle beach” made by Barbara’s son Madison. Though it is only the first episode, I strongly suspect it was Barbara’s ex husband Jeff Hamburg that hired someone to kill her. It seems to me that he did not want to pay her back alimony and child support and was to be a defendant in court over this issue that same day Barbara was killed.

I’m on episode 1.

 

[newsatfive]

I’m on episode 1.

I’m dying to hear your take on Murder on Middle Beach. It’s so different from other documentaries.

 

[NMurphy02]

It could have been a hit where the hit person was told to make it look like a crime of passion and not a professional hit.

 

[makepeace]

Just finished this series last night and I can't stop thinking about this poor kid.

My personal thoughts after finishing, She was a lovely, single woman. Why was there literally no boyfriend, dates, interests, or male friends ever mentioned? If the police know who it is, wouldn't that make the most sense?

We now its not Conway or Ali.

The Ex husband seems to have been involved in some really stupid scams to make money, and is reluctant to talk about it because he never did time for any of it. He may have worked with people who would have done something ugly to his family, however, I do not think this is a good lead as the murder was personal, and passionate! (hit men, or pay for violence type crimes are rarely this intensely personal..and they covered the body before they left.)

So bottom line, I think a love interest makes most sense.
Second most likely- Money motive...she kept alot of cash on hand, however they didn't steal anything?...maybe they panicked?...

Amazing job on the documentary Madison. Your mom is most definitely proud. I hope you allow us to continue with you on this journey. May you find peace!

 

[Satch]

Just finished this series last night and I can't stop thinking about this poor kid.

My personal thoughts after finishing, She was a lovely, single woman. Why was there literally no boyfriend, dates, interests, or male friends ever mentioned? If the police know who it is, wouldn't that make the most sense?

We now its not Conway or Ali.

The Ex husband seems to have been involved in some really stupid scams to make money, and is reluctant to talk about it because he never did time for any of it. He may have worked with people who would have done something ugly to his family, however, I do not think this is a good lead as the murder was personal, and passionate! (hit men, or pay for violence type crimes are rarely this intensely personal..and they covered the body before they left.)

So bottom line, I think a love interest makes most sense.
Second most likely- Money motive...she kept alot of cash on hand, however they didn't steal anything?...maybe they panicked?...

Amazing job on the documentary Madison. Your mom is most definitely proud. I hope you allow us to continue with you on this journey. May you find peace!

I cry for Madison!

Oh, I wish he could have had different parents, instead of ones with all these problems! Do you think Jeff did it? I think he did it personally, or hired someone to bump of Barbra. Whoever did this, knew her whereabouts, actions, and family activities. The blessings are that Ali and he got out of that horrible environment. Can't rule out the Gifting Tables either. But I am about 90% sure that it's Jeff.

You can feel the tension between Madison and his Dad in every conversation! And the lovable, gentle, kind soul that is Madison when surrounded by others. This dude is AMAZING! He has some much passion, dedication, and love within him!

Satch

 

[Stephen2016]

How did they determine the time of death ?
I'm trying to determine a time line . Ali's school I believe started at 7:25 she arrived at 7:54 .
Guessing to be to school at 7:25 one would have to at least leave the house by 7:14 if there were no delay's in the ride.
Possibly leave the house around 7:00 to get there by 7:25 , I'm assuming start time is the same today as then.

If all was normal when leaving for school say one leaves at 7:00 arrives at 7:54 ... that's almost an hour's time for an 11 minute ride ?

I believe the the Person who spoke with Barbara did so over the phone ?
Can't imagine Barbara going into the school in her pajamas .

And they talked about court as well, did they discuss the time, ?

Also wondering about why the body was moved and covered . Was it so no one would see the body and someone could then
establish an Alibi ?

 

[Satch]

How did they determine the time of death ?
I'm trying to determine a time line . Ali's school I believe started at 7:25 she arrived at 7:54 .
Guessing to be to school at 7:25 one would have to at least leave the house by 7:14 if there were no delay's in the ride.
Possibly leave the house around 7:00 to get there by 7:25 , I'm assuming start time is the same today as then.

If all was normal when leaving for school say one leaves at 7:00 arrives at 7:54 ... that's almost an hour's time for an 11 minute ride ?

I believe the the Person who spoke with Barbara did so over the phone ?
Can't imagine Barbara going into the school in her pajamas .

And they talked about court as well, did they discuss the time, ?

Also wondering about why the body was moved and covered . Was it so no one would see the body and someone could then
establish an Alibi ?
View attachment 276173

Ali didn't feel well, and probably had an upset stomach and anxiety over the court hearing. Maybe she was contemplating not going to school that day for those reasons. Yes, if Barbra thought the hearing was at 2PM why would she not get dressed to take Ali to school? She had time, Madison, in his research, might be able to shed some light as to what other plans Barbra had for the day. Yet, she certainly would not go anywhere to get out of the car still in her pajamas.

I also believe that the misinformation about the change in time from the court hearing was obviously planned by the killer so that Barbra would not be in court, but would be at home. The killer wanted to make 100% sure that Barbra would not receive any money in the divorce settlement, so the killer had to make sure Barbra would not be in court at the real 9:30 am time. We don't know how Barbra got the information about the false change in court hearing time. But I believe it was by phone.

This crime is too organized, planned, and clean, to even be considered as coincidental. This was intentional, planned for a very long time, and in malicious cold blood.

Satch

 

[Insightful1]

I truly feel this is a very solvable case. I watched the whole documentary as well. I am going to dive into this one. Just need as much info as possible. If anyone has found a place with a lot of correct info about this case if you could let me know I’d appreciate it. I am searching but just Incase I miss something somewhere. Thank you so much and keep up the great work.

 

[Manwel]

How did they determine the time of death ?
I'm trying to determine a time line . Ali's school I believe started at 7:25 she arrived at 7:54 .
Guessing to be to school at 7:25 one would have to at least leave the house by 7:14 if there were no delay's in the ride.
Possibly leave the house around 7:00 to get there by 7:25 , I'm assuming start time is the same today as then.

If all was normal when leaving for school say one leaves at 7:00 arrives at 7:54 ... that's almost an hour's time for an 11 minute ride ?

I believe the the Person who spoke with Barbara did so over the phone ?
Can't imagine Barbara going into the school in her pajamas .

And they talked about court as well, did they discuss the time, ?

Also wondering about why the body was moved and covered . Was it so no one would see the body and someone could then
establish an Alibi ?

View attachment 276173

All of this was pretty much answered by the series.

Ali was late to school because they didn't wake up on time. Ali referred to "waking her mother" herself. Her mother signed her in at 7:54 after they both got coffee on the way (Ali remembered she got chai), which also ate up time. Madison was able to speak to the office worker who found the documentation of 7:54 (there was a signature, parents had to sign you in back then, this was true of my school experience as well in the early 2000s, so the office worker said it's true they must have spoken).

The assumption that Barbara wouldn't go into a building wearing pajamas because she had been rich forgets that she personally wasn't rich, didn't come from a rich family, and based on the videos and images wasn't some overly manicured woman obsessed with her appearance. Quite the contrary, she seemed very down to earth and didn't prioritize makeup or fancy outfits. Wearing a buttoned coat over pajamas would largely hide the pajamas aspect as well, especially if wearing boots.

Given that Barbara's coffee cup was found outside the house, it was presumed during the walkthrough with the investigator that she did not make it inside the house upon coming home from dropping Ali off. Since she was not seen anywhere else in town after dropping Ali off, it's presumed she went directly home. Since the ride was only a matter of minutes, it's generally agreed that the murder would have occurred between 8:10 a.m. and 8:30 a.m. She wasn't found until some time after 11 a.m. by Conway and Ali because Conway signed Ali out around 10:50 a.m. That's almost three hours between time of death and discovery.

The investigator's walkthrough (and Ali and Conway's memories) suggested there was a scuffle by the door because the little statue was broken and the coffee cup, purse, and keys were on the ground near the door. The pool of blood was farther from the door and closer to the driveway, which may have been in view of the house next door (hence covered by the wood pallet). There was no discussion of blood spatter or drops by the door, which suggests she wasn't stabbed or hit in a blitz attack, despite the suggestion of a scuffle (though this does not negate the possibility that something could have been cleaned up). This all leaves me to believe either of three possibilities:

1) The killer brought the weapon with them, hid, then attacked her by surprise from outside.

2) The killer was already in the house and positioned themselves to attack her as she was coming in the door. They scuffle at the door and she goes running.

Both scenarios suggest a pre-meditated attack where murder was the only objective and the masking of the blood and the body were simply to buy time to get away and cover tracks. This person would be covered in blood from blunt-force trauma attacks with the hammer and the "stabbing" effect that was described in the police report. If on foot, they would ditch the weapon, or they went to a car waiting nearby and got rid of the weapon/clothes elsewhere. There would be blood in the car if this happened, unless they prepared to change clothes at the car and cleaned up before getting in. I believe an acquaintance would be more likely to attack in Scenario 1 from outside while someone "professional" would be more likely to find a way inside the house and wait in secret.

3) The killer did not bring a weapon with them and were let into the house by Barbara. In this scenario, the killer attacks out of provoked rage in the moment, not pre-meditated, and Barbara flees. Perhaps they hit her with a fist or shoved her, something that scares her enough to run. Fearful, she runs from the house. Out of violent desperation to cover up their behavior, the killer grabs a weapon, presumed to be a hammer, and chases her across the lawn. The weapon attack covers up bruising from a fist or a bad fall from a shove indoors, and her body is pulled to the side of the house out of view. The killer now has access to the house. They go inside and clean up out of sight, taking with them any bloody materials in a bag, and replace the weapon where it was found. (Keep in mind that Madison suggested the outdoor cushions were more likely to be in the locked garage than outside, so the killer might have had access to the garage, possibly if hiding the hammer in plain sight.) Wearing gloves, they lock up, throw her purse, keys, and coffee cup on the ground to suggest no one ever went inside, and knock over the statue.

I honestly buy this scenario more because to me it explains more about the murder than someone sneaking up in broad daylight with a random hammer and a lot of anger for 8 in the morning. If it was the ex-husband due in court by 9:30 in New Haven, a 23-minute drive according to Google Maps, then he had approximately 30-45 minutes to clean up the scene and himself and leave the location by 9 a.m. to be "early" for his court appearance.

What I want to know more about is how thoroughly did the police search the house and test for blood in the bathroom or on any weapons in the home?

If you are Barbara facing the driveway from the house, she ran diagonally to her right, cutting across the lawn. If she was attacked outside, she would have had keys in hand. But she did not run with them to the car? Did she fight back? Did the attacker force her keys from her hand? Could there have been evidence on them?

Barbara could have tried to run for either of two houses, one directly opposite her or the one to her right. Presumably she started screaming during the incident. To me no one must have been home at either residence. The killer was clearly faster than her because she barely got across the yard. (To me this crosses out Conway who I can't imagine being fleet of foot.)

The process of sticking around to cover the crime up is the oddest part. That told the investigator the person who did it was either upset with their actions and wanted to hide it from themselves, or that they were trying to hide the body from others. But the house is too far away from the main road to be visible, and the orientation of the homes was such that only the residence to the left of Barbara's home (if you're facing them) might have had a window that looked onto the body/blood pool. The fact that they stuck around after committing a crime in broad daylight says a lot about who this person might have been. A professional would get in and out, not waste time. To me the crime scene was disorganized and the killer wasted time trying to cover up the disorganization.

 

[Satch]

The divorce didn't seem amicable I don't think Jeffery was familiar with the property and the layout of the neighborhood and who would be home and who wouldn't.

Why would Jeff not be familiar with the property though? He wasn't home a lot, but it still was his home.

Satch

 

[Stephen2016]

Why would Jeff not be familiar with the property though? He wasn't home a lot, but it still was his home.

Satch

I thought Barbara moved there after the divorce. Madison mentioned another house they lived in prior to the 44 middle beach address. with his mother maybe I misunderstood. .. But maybe I assumed incorrectly .... I thought when they were together married they lived on Stanton Court. .. But don't take what I'm assuming / speculating to be accurate.


Wondering about something else ... why did Conway think Ali killed her mother. How did she think Ali got to school that day and Conway went to pick her up .

"...Beach has the unfortunate distinction of being the person who discovered Barbara Hamburg's deceased body on the morning of March 3, 2010. According to the doc, Beach picked up Barbara's teenage daughter Ali from school, and the two arrived at Hamburg's home to discover Barbara's car in the driveway but no one at home...." Bustle.com

 

[Stephen2016]

For some reason I don't think it was Jeffery.
Like Conway alluded to it seemed staged.
I'm thinking whoever staged it put some thought into it, from the person wearing the ski mask the day before , the 2:00 O'clock appointment , and the crime scene itself. As if Jeffery would be the scapegoat .
One other thing I don't think the school administrator spoke to Barbara that day . She also mentioned the court date and the time. I believe Ali said her mom let the school know she was going to be Tardy , and that her mother dropped her off. No mention of her mom going into the school , and everything else . Begining of Episode 4 Ali again mentions how her mom left her at school. . Seems as if a good amount of thought went into this , premeditated . but just my opinion . The 2:00 O'clock court time keeps coming up for "some" reason . How much prior to the 3rd was that 2:00 time first mentioned ?

 

[Stephen2016]

This is an article from March 7th 2010 the same date LE said they've had a prime suspect in the case and that the number one suspect phone was shut off for about 24hrs .

 

[Stephen2016]

Just some thoughts...

Seems like LE, when talking to Madison about what his Aunt Conway said about his sister, were not impressed at all by that information. I think the Detective said something like, oh you're Aunt said that to you, did she? To me he sounded very skeptical of what the Aunt had said, not skeptical of Madison being truthful in his relay of the conversation but of the Aunt's reliability and honestly. AJMO

I also want to know more about the house inside, what, if any, blood traces were found inside (doorknobs, floor, plumbing etc...).

I believe from the the description, the placement of BH's wounds that she was probably attacked from behind. Since there was a dropped takeout coffee cup found outside (along with her purse and keys) it doesn't seem like Conway's senario about Ali attacking her mother while they were leaving for school makes much sense.

Another thing that doesn't sit right with me is Conway's and Ali's differing descriptions of the the subject of Conway leaving Barb's home. Ali says she got along with her Aunt, loved her Aunt and was always supportive her but her Aunt and mother didn't get along. Conway said it was Ali who was the catalyst to Barb asking her to leave. She said Ali gave her mother an ultimatum, it's me or her, decide.

Those two differing descriptions of what was going on stand out as does that Detective's almost mocking attitude towards Conway made my radar tingle. AJMO

I keep wondering about the coffee cup also , which I missed the first time watching that episode.

I keep wondering if someone planted the cup there . What if all that evidence was planted there.
Maybe there was but it wasn't mentioned that there was any blood near the cup or any of the other items

 

[Manwel]

I keep wondering about the coffee cup also , which I missed the first time watching that episode.

I keep wondering if someone planted the cup there . What if all that evidence was planted there.
Maybe there was but it wasn't mentioned that there was any blood near the cup or any of the other items

Precisely. People imagine the way this murder played out that it was a masked assailant who sneaked up on her and attacked her at the door, because that's what the few items on the ground says. No one saw anything, no one heard anything, no one recorded anything on a security camera. But if you're some masked assailant in this presumed ski mask who has gone direct to the house to kill, where is the blood at the door? What about on the steps leading up to the door? They presumably brought the hammer and they don't attempt to incapacitate her at the door or anywhere near the steps to the door? There should have been blood splatter or drops of blood if they had. Also, they don't wait for her to open the door and then force her inside so they remain unseen? It's something like 8 in the morning when people are heading to work with two residences right there and some folks might be using the golf club already behind the house. Who in the world commits a murder in the middle of the yard?

You have to picture it both ways. Put yourself in the victim's shoes but also put yourself in the killer's shoes. In the victim's shoes, she drives up to her house. OK, are there suspicious cars around? Was someone already there? If not, she gets out of the car like normal with a purse over a shoulder or in hand, her dominant hand carrying keys, and a coffee cup in the other, likely empty that she plans to throw out. Does someone make themselves known as she is approaching the house? Or do they wait for her to go up to the door? In Episode 3, Conway points out the statue was broken near a drainpipe. Was the drainpipe dislodged? Was there evidence of movement in the dirt like one or two people scrambled in that spot? How did the statue break? It's a statue. If it fell over it would fall on dirt/grass. How is it broken? Conway points it out as in the dirt, NOT on the porch, so toppling over doesn't make sense to me.

During Episode 3's walkthrough with Conway, she points out that the keys, cup, and purse were all dropped in one spot several paces from the statue. So was she attacked at the porch and then turned around to run to her car and gets tackled again and that's how she drops everything? To imagine how this stuff is dropping, how the statue is breaking, and how she ends up on the other side of the lawn farther away from where the scuffle broke out, you have to imagine some kind of defensive scrambling likely on the ground. Was there evidence on her pajamas of grass-stained knees, elbows, or of mud? These are all unanswered questions. If there is no sign of any outdoor staining, then how we explain at least three different potential areas of physical contact in the yard before death?

That's where the what-ifs start. What if they were actually in the house already? Was there a break-in? Was there the possibility that they gained entrance without force? Could the attack have taken place inside and she tried to run from the house? That's what I want to know. Could the perceived sequence of events been planted to throw suspicion off the possibility that she knew her attacker and the confrontation started out verbal only?

 

[sunshineray]

I keep wondering about the coffee cup also , which I missed the first time watching that episode.

I keep wondering if someone planted the cup there . What if all that evidence was planted there.
Maybe there was but it wasn't mentioned that there was any blood near the cup or any of the other items

And we also don't know if there was a blood trail from the front door area where cup, keys and purse were to the side of the house area where BH's body was discovered.

Was BH hit from behind by her killer right before she got to her front door, fell and was dragged to the side of of sight to be killed there? Or was she hit, dropped all those things and fled to the side area before killer caught up with her?

 

[sunshineray]

Precisely. People imagine the way this murder played out that it was a masked assailant who sneaked up on her and attacked her at the door, because that's what the few items on the ground says. No one saw anything, no one heard anything, no one recorded anything on a security camera. But if you're some masked assailant in this presumed ski mask who has gone direct to the house to kill, where is the blood at the door? What about on the steps leading up to the door? They presumably brought the hammer and they don't attempt to incapacitate her at the door or anywhere near the steps to the door? There should have been blood splatter or drops of blood if they had. Also, they don't wait for her to open the door and then force her inside so they remain unseen? It's something like 8 in the morning when people are heading to work with two residences right there and some folks might be using the golf club already behind the house. Who in the world commits a murder in the middle of the yard?

You have to picture it both ways. Put yourself in the victim's shoes but also put yourself in the killer's shoes. In the victim's shoes, she drives up to her house. OK, are there suspicious cars around? Was someone already there? If not, she gets out of the car like normal with a purse over a shoulder or in hand, her dominant hand carrying keys, and a coffee cup in the other, likely empty that she plans to throw out. Does someone make themselves known as she is approaching the house? Or do they wait for her to go up to the door? In Episode 3, Conway points out the statue was broken near a drainpipe. Was the drainpipe dislodged? Was there evidence of movement in the dirt like one or two people scrambled in that spot? How did the statue break? It's a statue. If it fell over it would fall on dirt/grass. How is it broken? Conway points it out as in the dirt, NOT on the porch, so toppling over doesn't make sense to me.

During Episode 3's walkthrough with Conway, she points out that the keys, cup, and purse were all dropped in one spot several paces from the statue. So was she attacked at the porch and then turned around to run to her car and gets tackled again and that's how she drops everything? To imagine how this stuff is dropping, how the statue is breaking, and how she ends up on the other side of the lawn farther away from where the scuffle broke out, you have to imagine some kind of defensive scrambling likely on the ground. Was there evidence on her pajamas of grass-stained knees, elbows, or of mud? These are all unanswered questions. If there is no sign of any outdoor staining, then how we explain at least three different potential areas of physical contact in the yard before death?

That's where the what-ifs start. What if they were actually in the house already? Was there a break-in? Was there the possibility that they gained entrance without force? Could the attack have taken place inside and she tried to run from the house? That's what I want to know. Could the perceived sequence of events been planted to throw suspicion off the possibility that she knew her attacker and the confrontation started out verbal only?

The docu-series really didn't go into any blood evidence, did it?

 

[Manwel]

I keep wondering about the coffee cup also , which I missed the first time watching that episode.

I keep wondering if someone planted the cup there . What if all that evidence was planted there.
Maybe there was but it wasn't mentioned that there was any blood near the cup or any of the other items

Some things I just noticed upon rewatching specific clips from Episode 3 where they do walkthroughs with Conway, the investigator, ask Ali what she remembers coming to the house, and also the autopsy report:

1. Madison refers to Barb's phone that was dropped by the door and found, which wasn't mentioned by Conway or Ali.

2. The keys and purse are near each other, coffee cup is maybe a yard away by walkway when Madison recreates the scene with investigator, so not all clustered right in the same spot. Somehow I find it strange that the phone is first dropped at the door but she's still holding onto that coffee cup?

3. There is a photo shown of the porch and the dog statue, which is positioned in the dirt near the walkway, not on the porch. The photo shows metal patio furniture by the door. In the photo, the statue looks whole, but Ali says it was toppled to the side and broken. I cannot tell if the photo is a family photo of the house or something the police took at the time. Despite patio furniture and a drainpipe attached to house, nothing else was disturbed by the porch except the toppled statue? This is weird to me.

4. The autopsy report (if you freeze the frame) says there was a bruise around her right eye, a bruise on her forehead, and then the back of the head is where the majority of the violence was, including a skull fracture, a large laceration that was triangular in shape, and then some smaller lacerations that had circular bruises around them. It's not visible on the screen but Madison also reads off that she had a broken arm and a broken rib and internal damage of some kind (I don't recall the scientific terms used). There were also defensive wounds on both hands.

5. I also managed to freeze frame a paragraph of the crime scene report on the screen and it says the body was found supine (on her back) but the same paragraph on the screen says Ali and Conway rolled her over, so she was face-down when they found her. There's also part of the paragraph cut off that says something about "The body also was found with the panties and p...prior to my arrival." I wonder if this says that the panties and pajama pants were down prior to arrival of examiner? If they were both down, that says a lot more about perception of the crime. I can imagine a body being dragged and pulling the pajama pants down, but not the underwear. The underwear would have been purposefully pulled down.

6. The same paragraph above I freeze-framed also mentions dirt on the left knee of the pajama bottoms. Surprisingly, no mention of dirt in other locations that would be consistent with either rolling around on the ground, getting pushed down, etc. I'm surprised it's just one callout of the one knee.

7. The same autopsy paragraph also mentions "numerous puncture wounds on the head, throat, and back of neck." This paragraph is the observation of the body at the scene, not an autopsy. The autopsy report would have more detail about whether these punctures were deep penetrations of the throat or superficial abrasions. The autopsy report I freeze-framed does mention "superficial abrasions" on her neck that are not called lacerations, which are worse.