Identified! CT - New Britain, Wht/HispFem 175UFCT, 17-20, Sep'95 - Elizabeth Honsch

[*zoe*]

my parents live literally down the street from where this girls (and now others') body had been found. The WestFarms mall is down and across the street. These women were dumped by route 9 behind one of many strip malls around the west farms mall. Theres a Subway, Gamestop, and walk-in medical center, across the street a borders & books. I remember seeing this girl's "photo" many times in stores, etc. Now that at least two other (3?)skeletonized bodies have been found, I guess that makes that area a favorite dumping ground for someone. The strangest thing since this is West Hartford, basically, a richy-rich area. west farms mall borders Farmington (also nice) and New Britain (not so nice).
i dunno if that helps anyone thats fascinated in the case like I am. -z

 

[hmg]

What baffles me is that its been widely reported that in addition to the body found in 1995, there were 3 other bodies dumped there in relatively the same time period and yet no one talking about the Tolland Doe/New Britain Doe connection discusses those other bodies. Do they believe those other bodies are unrelated? It makes no sense to me.

 

[*zoe*]

i think its pretty safe to say that if the new britain jane doe is somehow linked to the tolland jane doe, then the other 3 must be as related as well. that would be a big coincidence that 4 bodies are found in one area. thats a dumping ground.

 

[*zoe*]

i only recently joined because i finally got my own wi-fi and email account in a new apt. otherwise i defnitely would've posted this earlier:
i've read somewhere that one of the investigators believes the new britain doe is from out of the country, and that makes sense if no one has claimed her.my fiancee is latino and happened to wander over to my laptop while i was looking at her pic. we talked for a moment about it (in the only way we can; spanglish) and he for one reason or another said she looks peruvian.
now normally i'd discount that as someone saying "he looks italian" or whatever, but when we watch telemundo or univision together and i ask if its a puerto rican show or mexican, he can tell by dialect and face characteristics if a person is mexican, puerto rican, or peruvian, etc, and he's always right... i've tested him on this while food shopping too, its interesting!
so i only bring this up because i instantly glared at him and asked him why he said that. he wasn't being "funny", it was just his honest opinion. anyways, he's not into this stuff like i am... -z :blushing:

 

[hmg]

I think there's a decent chance she's an immigrant as well. I can think of a few cases recently where a person has remained unidentified because there's no family members willing to identify the person due to fear of being deported.

It's hard to believe that there's a family out there with two missing people and it appears that neither family member is being looked for. This leads to a limited number of scenarios:

-The rest of the family is not here legally and is afraid of getting deported.
-The family doesn't realize they're missing (lets say a mom and child/ two sisters move across the country or to the US from another country. The rest of the family could think they're off living their life in Albany or whatever when in fact they're deceased).
-They were the only members of their family OR there was a boyfriend, girlfriend, or spouse involved as well and he/she is the killer.
-Someone else in the family killed them and the rest of the family is covering for them because they're scared or want to protect the killer.

Can anyone else think of reasons two members from the same family would be killed and neither of them would be reported missing?

ETA: Or they're not related. LE said they were probably but not definitively related. At the very least their deaths seem related as in performed by the same person within an extremely short time period.

 

[*zoe*]

i agree 100%.
also, since investigators are now sure that new britain doe and tolland doe are somehow related (and i'm really interested to find out how they came to this conclusion!) this means that two family members are missing and no one is talking to police?? i'm sure everyone finds this a little strange. I would conclude that possibly a family member is responsible, therefore the rest of the family is keeping quiet... but no cousin, niece, etc asking questions? i just don't see that. i'm wondering if this is maybe part of why LE believes new britain doe (and i guess tolland doe as well...?) is an immigrant?
tolland doe was found to at some point been in the Albany NY area, but no one seems to know her, either. its like these women never existed.
IMO they're from south america and their families do not have the resources to search for them.. very much like the case of yesenia nungaray who for years was the Castro City Jane Doe until investigators got a tip to go to a certain town in mexico and finally tracked down her mother. to me this makes the most sense. -z

 

[CarlK90245]

i only recently joined because i finally got my own wi-fi and email account in a new apt. otherwise i defnitely would've posted this earlier:
i've read somewhere that one of the investigators believes the new britain doe is from out of the country, and that makes sense if no one has claimed her.my fiancee is latino and happened to wander over to my laptop while i was looking at her pic. we talked for a moment about it (in the only way we can; spanglish) and he for one reason or another said she looks peruvian.
now normally i'd discount that as someone saying "he looks italian" or whatever, but when we watch telemundo or univision together and i ask if its a puerto rican show or mexican, he can tell by dialect and face characteristics if a person is mexican, puerto rican, or peruvian, etc, and he's always right... i've tested him on this while food shopping too, its interesting!
so i only bring this up because i instantly glared at him and asked him why he said that. he wasn't being "funny", it was just his honest opinion. anyways, he's not into this stuff like i am... -z :blushing:

That's an interesting theory that the women are Peruvian. I've been to Peru, and know that the locals wear colorful clothing. If you look at the hoodie that Tolland Jane Doe was wearing, it looks like something that a Peruvian might wear, although the design is described in DoeNet as an Aztec (i.e., central Mexico) print design.

Also, they say that the hoodie was purchased no later than 1994 from a defunct store in Albany NY called the Stockroom. So assuming that she purchased the hoodie, she would have been in the Albany area for at least a year.

 

[hmg]

That's an interesting theory that the women are Peruvian. I've been to Peru, and know that the locals wear colorful clothing. If you look at the hoodie that Tolland Jane Doe was wearing, it looks like something that a Peruvian might wear, although the design is described in DoeNet as an Aztec (i.e., central Mexico) print design.

Also, they say that the hoodie was purchased no later than 1994 from a defunct store in Albany NY called the Stockroom. So assuming that she purchased the hoodie, she would have been in the Albany area for at least a year.

LE said Tolland Doe had been in the Albany region for no less than 2 months indicating a sustained involvement in the area for a time rather than someone just "passing through" or someone who frequently visited the area without actually living there. Given the fact that the tax stamp on the cigarettes originated in Latham (presumably bought shortly before her death) and the shirt was almost definitely bought in 1994, I think its reasonable to believe that she had some ties to the region much further back than August 1995. As Carl said, she had probably been there for at least a year.

Also just as reminder to people who may not have visited the Tolland Doe's thread the shirt was available in three Stockroom locations during 1994: Schenectady, NY, Colonie, NY, and Saratoga Springs, NY all which are within the Capitol region.

 

[*zoe*]

That's an interesting theory that the women are Peruvian. I've been to Peru, and know that the locals wear colorful clothing. If you look at the hoodie that Tolland Jane Doe was wearing, it looks like something that a Peruvian might wear, although the design is described in DoeNet as an Aztec (i.e., central Mexico) print design.

Also, they say that the hoodie was purchased no later than 1994 from a defunct store in Albany NY called the Stockroom. So assuming that she purchased the hoodie, she would have been in the Albany area for at least a year.

i never really took the design on tolland doe's hoodie into account before, but that's an interesting theory..!
also, hmg, im from CT but unfortunately ignorant when it comes to Mass towns, cities, etc. Tolland is a town in CT as well, beyond Bolton, but the older woman is listed as Tolland, MA doe which is kind of confusing to me. New Britain (west hartford) isn't "across the world" from Tolland, but not close.

 

[hmg]

Tolland, MA is pretty close to New Britain. It's under an hour via Route 8 (a state route in CT that runs into MA). Tolland directly borders Colebrook, CT. Tolland is very rural, I've lived in western MA the better portion of my life and have only been there once or twice. I've probably been to West Hartford/ New Britain more!

Whoever did this must have had some at least vague familiarity with the area. I certainly wouldn't have taken Route 8 to New Britain on instinct alone.

 

[carbuff]

Just a couple of refreshers -- link to hmg's post about the news conference that announced the connection:

Authorities in NY, MA, and CT Link 1995 Shootings - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

And the thread about Tolland MA Jane Doe:

MA-UID Female in a Massachusetts, 1995 (maybe from NY/ NJ?) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

They don't say how they figured out the potential relationships, but the way they list even aunt/niece as a possibility makes me think they had an mDNA match.

At the time they announced the connection, my thought was that the two women were camping in Tolland -- they think the Tolland woman was murdered where she was found. The two sleeping bags might have belonged to the two women. Makes me wonder whether the murderer(s) might have kidnapped the younger woman to try to get her to talk, then killed and dumped her later. Or maybe killed both of them at the time and wrapped the younger one in both sleeping bags to dispose of her.

 

[hmg]

Just a couple of refreshers -- link to hmg's post about the news conference that announced the connection:

Authorities in NY, MA, and CT Link 1995 Shootings - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

And the thread about Tolland MA Jane Doe:

MA-UID Female in a Massachusetts, 1995 (maybe from NY/ NJ?) - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

They don't say how they figured out the potential relationships, but the way they list even aunt/niece as a possibility makes me think they had an mDNA match.

At the time they announced the connection, my thought was that the two women were camping in Tolland -- they think the Tolland woman was murdered where she was found. The two sleeping bags might have belonged to the two women. Makes me wonder whether the murderer(s) might have kidnapped the younger woman to try to get her to talk, then killed and dumped her later. Or maybe killed both of them at the time and wrapped the younger one in both sleeping bags to dispose of her.

Your timeline seems accurate. I read in the archived newspaper articles they found bullets fired at the campsite and LE to this date seem pretty steadfast that Tolland Doe was shot on site while New Britain Doe was dumped. The only question would be whether New Britain Doe was also shot on site (perhaps LE has info on this they're not relating it to the public and that's how they know the cases are related? They did not give a clear answer on DNA during the news conference) or if she was taken somewhere else and then shot.

One thing that has confused me a bit about this case: NB Doe was found 9/25/95 and probably died within the day. Tolland Doe was found 10/6/95 in a rather public place. At the time they thought she had been dead 2 days or so. How did no one see her body for 10 days? Why did the examiner believe she'd been dead for only 2-3 days? Is there a possibility NB Doe was killed first on the 25th, something happened for a couple of days, and then Tolland Doe was killed on the 2nd or 3rd?

Carbuff's scenario seems more accurate but I can't get that one discrepancy out of mind.

 

[carbuff]

Hm, that is a potentially significant discrepancy, though I had formed the impression that all of the dates were a bit iffy.

 

[hmg]

Hm, that is a potentially significant discrepancy, though I had formed the impression that all of the dates were a bit iffy.

Even if we assume the dates of the shooting are off there's still the problem that NB Doe was found on 9/25/95 and Tolland Doe was found on 10/6/95. If we assume they were shot on the same day, they would have had to been shot on or before 9/25.

How was Tolland Doe lying in an open area in a public campground for a minimum of 10 days without being noticed? I mean I guess that's possible... there was a case around here where a girl was dead in her car for 21 hours in a very crowded mall parking lot and no one noticed... but it still gives me pause.

 

[carbuff]

Even if we assume the dates of the shooting are off there's still the problem that NB Doe was found on 9/25/95 and Tolland Doe was found on 10/6/95. If we assume they were shot on the same day, they would have had to been shot on or before 9/25.

How was Tolland Doe lying in an open area in a public campground for a minimum of 10 days without being noticed? I mean I guess that's possible... there was a case around here where a girl was dead in her car for 21 hours in a very crowded mall parking lot and no one noticed... but it still gives me pause.

I agree, it seems very unlikely they were shot at the same time.

Family traveling by RV, daughter seems to leave, a few days later mother finds out what father really did, so he does her in, too?

 

[Jaygee88]

I think about this girl often. I used to live in New Britain. I hope one day we will know who she is and what happened to her. Does anyone know what happened to the sleeping bags she was in? Did they have some kind of logo or sign? I wonder how no one knows who she is. Either she was not from this country or maybe a family member did this to her.

 

[tatertot]

Article with reconstructions of two of the three 2007 Jane Does found behind the strip mall and a good video:

http://www.wfsb.com/news/24824713/detail.html

Article explaining that three sets of remains were found, but only two skulls, hence only two reconstructions:

http://www.newstimes.com/news/article/New-Britain-police-try-to-warm-cold-case-638730.php

 

[RubyRed]

The investigation began in 1991, when a railroad crew in New Britain, Conn. discovered a woman’s body in the center of town.

Four years later, on September 28, 1995 New Britain police were puzzled by the death of an unknown woman, who someone dumped behind a popular shopping center in New Britain, Conn.

Mearly an hour or so north up the highway, detectives in Tolland, Mass. discovered a female victim, who someone shot to death.

http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=33481

http://www.bristolpress.com/articles/2010/08/31/news/doc4c78163d591ee018504376.txt

All these aforementioned murders seemed like separate homicide cases – until August 2007.


So I am counting six that could possibly be from the same killer. It would make it easier if all these women were in one area to discuss them as evidence links two of them together and it looks like the same killer for all of them.

 

[RubyRed]

This map not only portrays the proximity of the corpses, discovered in Tolland, Mass and New Britain, Conn., but also shows where police believe two of the victims may have originally come from--the Capitol District around Albany, NY.

http://www.amw.com/fugitives/case.cfm?id=33481

 

[CarlK90245]

Does anyone here live in the Albany NY area who can spare couple of days of time to go around to the local public libraries?

The following link is a Google map of Albany, pinpointing all of the high schools in the area.
http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-...iBTNOULpSmsQPG_pD3Bw&ved=0CCwQtgMwAA&t=h&z=12

Classmates.com has begun publishing high school yearbooks for schools around the country, and they are adding new yearbooks every day. However, they do not yet have the 1994 or 1995 yearbooks for any of the schools in Albany.

There appears to be approximately 10 - 15 high schools in the Albany area. Public Libraries usually have the yearbooks for the schools in their vicinity. This Jane Doe appears to be between 16 and 18 years old. If someone in the Albany area had a few days of available time to go around to the Albany area public libraries, I bet that they would be able to find this girl in one of the 1994 or 1995 high school yearbooks.