custody given to nancy's family

[reddress58]

I wonder if there is a way that BC could watch the children play through webcam, with them knowing he was there. That would make the artificial environment more natural. If he were in the same room with them at home, he wouldn't have 15 min. one on one conversations. They would be moving about between interactions. BC could, this way, get the joy of "being with" his daughters, and the children could come up and talk to him when they felt moved to do so.

 

[garner_nc]

It will be interesting to see how, if at all, the judge's review of the videotaped phone conferences between the children and the father, has informed her decision to continue the temporary custodial arrangements.

I did not like those being presented as evidence. For all we know the kids were told to misbehave since they were on camera. It is to easy to coach a child or distract a child. "When you get done talking to daddy we are going to the toy store...." I know my child would say "See Ya dad..." and would be anxious to get off the webcam.

TXredhead178 - I'm sure you reinforced your ex's feelings to your child while he was 1200 miles away. I'm sure you said "He loves you, he misses you..." I'm sure that had an impact on the video conference success.

I cannot see NC's family doing that for BC. Kids need reassurance and I'm sure they feel like BOTH of their parents have abandoned them. I doubt they are telling them that daddy misses them and daddy loves them. I bet he is only mentioned when the dreaded webcam task is scheduled. "Lets go kids and talk to your daddy" [in the most sarcastic dreaded tone].

 

[ncsu95]

It will be interesting to see how, if at all, the judge's review of the videotaped phone conferences between the children and the father, has informed her decision to continue the temporary custodial arrangements.

I did not like those being presented as evidence. For all we know the kids were told to misbehave since they were on camera. It is to easy to coach a child or distract a child. "When you get done talking to daddy we are going to the toy store...." I know my child would say "See Ya dad..." and would be anxious to get off the webcam.

TXredhead178 - I'm sure you reinforced your ex's feelings to your child while he was 1200 miles away. I'm sure you said "He loves you, he misses you..." I'm sure that had an impact on the video conference success.

I cannot see NC's family doing that for BC. Kids need reassurance and I'm sure they feel like BOTH of their parents have abandoned them. I doubt they are telling them that daddy misses them and daddy loves them. I bet he is only mentioned when the dreaded webcam task is scheduled. "Lets go kids and talk to your daddy" [in the most sarcastic dreaded tone].

I would agree, especially since KL admitted the kids hadn't seen there dad last week because the courts hadn't ordered it. That was absolutely not in the best interest of the children.

 

[justthinking2008]

These children will likely suffer abandonment issues for the rest of their life, they have in essence lost both parents and their little minds while occupied with other things still feel abandoned. I do not care how much "love" Krista gives these kids she is not NC or BC, the children should be with him. Adoption never works regardless of the circumstances.

 

[maconrich]

These children will likely suffer abandonment issues for the rest of their life, they have in essence lost both parents and their little minds while occupied with other things still feel abandoned. I do not care how much "love" Krista gives these kids she is not NC or BC, the children should be with him. Adoption never works regardless of the circumstances.

Not meaning to pounce on you, but I have to take issue with the adoption never works statement. I'm not sure if you mean in general or with this particular family (even though adoption doesn't have anything to do with this family)?

Regardless there are many situations where children are much better off with a loving adoptive family than they would have been with their biological parents. Some 'parents' are biological parents period and have no business having or raising a child.

With BC I'm not sure that's the case, but apparently he was an absent parent until Nancy started looking at leaving the early part of this year. She noted that this is when he changed and started spending time with the children and being more attentive to them, and others made the same observation.

Better late than never, I guess, but despite his long work hours, long training hours and whatever else he was occupied with there was no reason he couldn't have made time to spend with those girls. A lot of working parents do set aside time for their children -- SH is one example but I'm sure there are plenty more in their circle of friends who did (and do) the same.

Meaning, IMO, spending quality time with the girls didn't seem to be high on BC's list of priorities until he realized Nancy was going to leave him. Sadly that had to have had an impact on their bonding with him - or more specifically the lack of bonding. And while the children appear to 'love' their father, they were (most likely) much closer to their mother since she was their primary caretaker (security, etc) from day one.

I'm not saying BC doesn't 'love' them because he probably does (even if he never said it during his deposition). But, if he killed Nancy, he obviously didn't love them enough or he *never* would have taken her from their lives.

As far as the webcam visits I agree with those who pointed out it's an artificial environment and that alone would make it a bit strained. As would the ages of the children. I do not in any way believe anyone has been or would encourage them to act out during the sessions, and it's likely that JL was involved instead of KL for that very reason (so no negative vibes came across).

I do agree with the L's that phone conversations might be a better mode of communication, although I wouldn't stop the webcam visits -- maybe just mix things up a little adding more phone visits and a little less webcam visits. And again I think a lot of the tension is because of how young the girls are and just having to stay put for that long.

Maybe adding videos that they know are going to 'daddy' would be another option. That way the camcorder could follow them around and they could talk to BC while they played (or did whatever activity). It would be nice to make some following them thru various parts of the day and ending with them going to bed and telling him goodnight. Something along those lines would allow him to 'see' them in a less restrictive way and it seems their behavior would be more natural and at ease. Naturally the supervised visits should be continued too and are probably the best form of interaction.

I'm sorry, I just don't believe in my heart of hearts that it would be in their best interests to be with BC right now (full time that is). Something has to give with the criminal case first, and hopefully it will happen sooner rather than later...

 

[runr]

FYI I am in the:
"no evidence yet indicates to me that BC did this crime,"
"unless there is clear documentation that he is a danger to the girls, he should have custody," and
"although I believe that there is evidence of a dysfunctional relationship between NC and BC, that does not mean that he murdered her"
camp,
BUT
adoption is a wonderful opportunity for many children that has absolutely nothing to do with this case of temporary custody.

There are millions of non-baby adoptees who dispute your statement that "adoption never works."

 

[pamlet]

I would agree, especially since KL admitted the kids hadn't seen there dad last week because the courts hadn't ordered it. That was absolutely not in the best interest of the children.

I've thought a lot about the statement from KL that the courts hadn't ordered it ... and the affies regarding when the police came to take the girls from BC ... how the older one clung to him and she cried the whole way... It was heartbreaking to read those affies..

 

[justthinking2008]

maconrich, are you adopted? Well if you are not you could not possibly know the effects of adoption on children and the issues it presents later in life, no matter how good it was for them at the time. You are buying into the myths society wants you too, you must understand that for the most part not in this case, adoption is big business. Please do not take my word for it, go to adoptioncrossroads.org, Joe Soll is a leading expert in working with adoption issues, you will find all the information you need there, warning it is not pretty, and if you are adoptive parent you will never understand it. Custody needs to be taken from KL immediately before her attitude injures the girls attitude.

 

[chauncey7381]

I've thought a lot about the statement from KL that the courts hadn't ordered it ... and the affies regarding when the police came to take the girls from BC ... how the older one clung to him and she cried the whole way... It was heartbreaking to read those affies..

The Listers may be providing a stable/nurturing environment for the children at this juncture, however, some of the testimony that Momt3kids provided is disturbing, regarding Krista Lister's CLEARLY-NO DOUBT ABOUT IT-hatred towards Brad Cooper. I understand her emotions as she believes Brad murdered her sister. Jim Lister is the one who is involved in all of interactions with the children and Brad Cooper. I get the impression that the Listers would be completely happy if these children had nothing to do with their father at all. The packages Brad sent them...did they give these to the children? The Lister attitude is if the court doesn't rule it, then tough. Telling the children's counselor that Brad Cooper murdered my sister was out there, I have hard time believing the Lister's are not disparaging their father within earshot.

I know Judge Sasser on somewhat of a personal level, as we have been members of the same church for many many years, since my children were born. She is/has been an active member of our church, serving on various committees as I have through out the years. I do believe she is doing what she feels is BEST for the girls at this juncture---I can only hope she will address what can be sent/given/pictures/drawings etc to their Dad, the supervised visitations.

I don't agree with her ruling one bit, yet. Brad Cooper has not been found to be unfit parent IMO. I look forward to reading the custody order's parameters.

 

[chauncey7381]

Custody needs to be taken from KL immediately before her attitude injures the girls attitude.

I am hoping that Sasser is going to address this in her order.

 

[maconrich]

maconrich, are you adopted? Well if you are not you could not possibly know the effects of adoption on children and the issues it presents later in life, no matter how good it was for them at the time. You are buying into the myths society wants you too, you must understand that for the most part not in this case, adoption is big business. Please do not take my word for it, go to adoptioncrossroads.org, Joe Soll is a leading expert in working with adoption issues, you will find all the information you need there, warning it is not pretty, and if you are adoptive parent you will never understand it. Custody needs to be taken from KL immediately before her attitude injures the girls attitude.

My son was adopted by both of my parents and myself (I'm his biological mother also). His biological father was an abusive, self-centered, controlling moron who threatened to kill both of us many times while we were together and started the threats again when he realized the court would order him to pay child support. He signed off all parental rights, meaning he wouldn't have to pay support and opened the door for the adoption which made sure my child would remain with my family if anything happened to me. Granted I never kept it a secret who the biological father was and didn't throw away pictures or anything (even kept his birth certificate the same). He met him when he was about 7 and hasn't expressed or displayed any interest in him since then -- actually he didn't before that because there was no bond between them. In addition I didn't trash him to my son -- made it clear there were issues but didn't go into details. And I believe 100% that if that person hadn't been afraid of me and of what would happen to him (compliments of either myself or my family) if he attemped to carry out his threats, I wouldn't be here today. Getting my child out of the situation was the best thing I could have done -- he was raised in a healthy and loving home instead of one where an egocentric, mean and hateful man would have been his role-model.

I also have a niece who was adopted and many friends who were, too. Most have no interest in seeing or contacting their biological parents and love their adoptive family and consider them their 'real' family. And they are and have been their real family. Donating an egg or sperm doesn't qualify someone to be a parent and, imo, some people should be surgically prevented from having children. Abuse, neglect and death are too often the consequences when these 'people' keep children they only want because they are 'theirs' and don't have the ability to love and take care of. No child should have to live with that -- and sadly many do not because they're killed at the hands of the same warped monsters that created them.

I will give credit to those who realize they are not cut out to be parents and give their children up for adoption -- especially at birth before permanent damage can be done. Likewise I respect parents who remove themselves and their child/children from abusive and dangerous relationships. I know what it's like to protect a child from a monster so they never have to experience or witness abuse. I left when my son was an infant and never let him out of my sight -- to the point that I took him with me when I went to the bathroom. Some of my friends weren't so lucky and do have scars from being exposed to one or both of their biological parents. They are the ones who have had a hard time and have had to work thru and past issues and they've done so with the help of their adoptive parents.

In addition to my personal experience I worked for several years as a family specialist and, sadly, most of the children were still living with their biological parents and had emotional and physical scars that will last a life-time. I do realize there are cases where adoption may not work out, but I also know there are times when it is the one option that allows a child to have a healthy homelife - and sometimes simply a *life*.

No disrespect intended, and perhaps I am too close to this subject to maintain a great deal of objectivity. But I refuse to give a free pass to anyone just because they helped create a child - it's what happens after conception that concerns me.

 

[tarheellvr]

maconrich, are you adopted? Well if you are not you could not possibly know the effects of adoption on children and the issues it presents later in life, no matter how good it was for them at the time. You are buying into the myths society wants you too, you must understand that for the most part not in this case, adoption is big business. Please do not take my word for it, go to adoptioncrossroads.org, Joe Soll is a leading expert in working with adoption issues, you will find all the information you need there, warning it is not pretty, and if you are adoptive parent you will never understand it. Custody needs to be taken from KL immediately before her attitude injures the girls attitude.

Are YOU adopted? Well, I WAS and I had/have a loving relationship with my family. I highly resent your implication that all adoptions are wrong. Through my work, I've been in contact with many, many adult adoptees who have searched and found....myself included. Yes, some are happy reunions, but just as many are not. I, myself, would never have chosen my birth family over my adopted family given the choice. Yes, there are unhappy adult adoptees out there, but there are also just as many adult adoptees who have no desire what-so-ever to search as they feel emotionally complete just as they are.

There are many "JOE SOLLS" out there, likewise there are many proponents of adoption....so please don't use his expertise as the "holy word" on this subject. Believe me......he IS NOT!!!!!

Krista and Jim are the best people to create an environment for Nancy's girls and I highly resent your attitude towards them. If you believed in your heart your twin sister's husband murdered her, whether or not her daughters saw their father while in Raleigh would not be high on your list of priorities.
Krista and Jim love these little girls and are providing the best possible environment for them. Krista a bad influence for her sister's girls????? You really don't have a clue do you?

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap: to you Judge Sasser. Nancy's girls are where they SHOULD BE.

 

[Star12]

My son was adopted by both of my parents and myself (I'm his biological mother also). His biological father was an abusive, self-centered, controlling moron who threatened to kill both of us many times while we were together and started the threats again when he realized the court would order him to pay child support. He signed off all parental rights, meaning he wouldn't have to pay support and opened the door for the adoption which made sure my child would remain with my family if anything happened to me. Granted I never kept it a secret who the biological father was and didn't throw away pictures or anything (even kept his birth certificate the same). He met him when he was about 7 and hasn't expressed or displayed any interest in him since then -- actually he didn't before that because there was no bond between them. In addition I didn't trash him to my son -- made it clear there were issues but didn't go into details. And I believe 100% that if that person hadn't been afraid of me and of what would happen to him (compliments of either myself or my family) if he attemped to carry out his threats, I wouldn't be here today. Getting my child out of the situation was the best thing I could have done -- he was raised in a healthy and loving home instead of one where an egocentric, mean and hateful man would have been his role-model.

I also have a niece who was adopted and many friends who were, too. Most have no interest in seeing or contacting their biological parents and love their adoptive family and consider them their 'real' family. And they are and have been their real family. Donating an egg or sperm doesn't qualify someone to be a parent and, imo, some people should be surgically prevented from having children. Abuse, neglect and death are too often the consequences when these 'people' keep children they only want because they are 'theirs' and don't have the ability to love and take care of. No child should have to live with that -- and sadly many do not because they're killed at the hands of the same warped monsters that created them.

I will give credit to those who realize they are not cut out to be parents and give their children up for adoption -- especially at birth before permanent damage can be done. Likewise I respect parents who remove themselves and their child/children from abusive and dangerous relationships. I know what it's like to protect a child from a monster so they never have to experience or witness abuse. I left when my son was an infant and never let him out of my sight -- to the point that I took him with me when I went to the bathroom. Some of my friends weren't so lucky and do have scars from being exposed to one or both of their biological parents. They are the ones who have had a hard time and have had to work thru and past issues and they've done so with the help of their adoptive parents.

In addition to my personal experience I worked for several years as a family specialist and, sadly, most of the children were still living with their biological parents and had emotional and physical scars that will last a life-time. I do realize there are cases where adoption may not work out, but I also know there are times when it is the one option that allows a child to have a healthy homelife - and sometimes simply a *life*.

No disrespect intended, and perhaps I am too close to this subject to maintain a great deal of objectivity. But I refuse to give a free pass to anyone just because they helped create a child - it's what happens after conception that concerns me.

Bravo to you!

 

[justthinking2008]

If you believed in your heart your twin sister's husband murdered her, whether or not her daughters saw their father while in Raleigh would not be high on your list of priorities.

What I believe in my heart and what is true are sometimes two different things, which may well be the case here. KL wants those girls to replace NC in her life, that is what I believe in my heart. You say you would choose your adopted family over your biological family, that concept can have no basis in truth as you have no real idea what life would have been like in your biological family, again another belief from the heart, not the mind, once again you are entitled to your opinion, and I respect that, please respect the fact that I am also entitled to mine. I realize that Joe Soll and the others like him are not the "end all" on the adoption subject; however, years of research by professionals has been done on both sides of the argument. It has been found that children of adoption suffer with denial issues, abandonment issues, loyalty issues and have an overall sense of feeling different. Do not argue this with me, I am only referring to professional research done on the matter. I do not want NC's children to grow up feeling abandoned by their father, unfortunately they are going to feel abandoned by NC even though it was no fault of hers she left them. Unless BC is charged with a crime or even noted as a person of interest these children should be returned to him immediately. Is not fair to the children to be taken away from their home, toys, friends, familiar surroundings and to be placed in an area totally foreign to them. KL is not promoting a relationship with BC thru her own selfish motives, and I think this speaks volumes regarding her personality. If and when the children are returned to their father they may be wary of him, if KL has made them believe he killed their mother. Also BC may have been an absentee father who was interested in furthering his education to provide better for the family, or had some temporary obsession with physical training for a competition, but that does not make him a bad dad. Even the people that are on the guilty side of the fence agree nothing has been shown to prove him unfit. BC has submitted to psych. tests and 7 hours of deposition, which incidentally is why he did not take the stand, that is why NC's family wanted to depo, Stubbs could have called BC if she had wanted. I would love to see a psychological profile on KL, since everyone seems to believe that she is a better parent than BC, and if my memory serves me correctly, she does not have children and has no experience parenting at all.

 

[justthinking2008]

Maconrich,

Touché, point well made, appreciate the respectful tone of your post and sorry for your past situation.

 

[eye_believe]

Justthinking2008..... you are "on" to something...

People often "want" what they c..'. .... period

 

[SleuthyGal]

I was thinking about this custody issue today (when I wasn't particularly expecting to think about this case at all). You know, so many men want nothing to do with their kids...they divorce the wife or abandon the GF and the kids are left to fend for themselves w/no father figure. So it's particularly poignant when I see men who WANT to parent and want to spend time with their kids on a daily basis. And for that reason I'm pretty sad about this Cooper situation.

Those kids need/want their father. They also need/want their extended family too. I believe it ultimately hurts the kids to not have ready access to everyone who loves them. I understand the reality here, but I'm just saying, I don't like it.

When I was growing up, fathers spent their time at work and the major child rearing was left to the mothers, by and large. My dad came home from work, expected dinner on the table, then he watched TV until after the news, and went to bed. There was a TV in every room, including the kitchen, and we kids were not allowed to talk during dinner because the news was on! (not kidding). Certainly not ideal, and I think back now and see that it was a lousy way to raise kids, but it wasn't considered anything but standard then. Today that might be considered 'unfit.' (My parents still do this--they have 4 TVs in their apt. :frown

I'm sure the Listers are providing a loving home--I don't doubt that for a single moment. But those kids also need more frequent access to their father, at least until he's been indicted for the crime.

 

[MCDRAW]

The Listers may be providing a stable/nurturing environment for the children at this juncture, however, some of the testimony that Momt3kids provided is disturbing, regarding Krista Lister's CLEARLY-NO DOUBT ABOUT IT-hatred towards Brad Cooper. I understand her emotions as she believes Brad murdered her sister. Jim Lister is the one who is involved in all of interactions with the children and Brad Cooper. I get the impression that the Listers would be completely happy if these children had nothing to do with their father at all. The packages Brad sent them...did they give these to the children? The Lister attitude is if the court doesn't rule it, then tough. Telling the children's counselor that Brad Cooper murdered my sister was out there, I have hard time believing the Lister's are not disparaging their father within earshot.

I know Judge Sasser on somewhat of a personal level, as we have been members of the same church for many many years, since my children were born. She is/has been an active member of our church, serving on various committees as I have through out the years. I do believe she is doing what she feels is BEST for the girls at this juncture---I can only hope she will address what can be sent/given/pictures/drawings etc to their Dad, the supervised visitations.

I don't agree with her ruling one bit, yet. Brad Cooper has not been found to be unfit parent IMO. I look forward to reading the custody order's parameters.

The alienation of a parent is never good. Regardless, of what Brad Cooper is or is not, he is their Dad. And they love him and always will. I really think NC's family knew exactly what to say to get those children. I understand their anger but I really can't see how the judge would think that environment is better for the children.

 

[Albert]

You know, so many men want nothing to do with their kids...they divorce the wife or abandon the GF and the kids are left to fend for themselves w/no father figure.

Likewise, so many women want kids only to collect a larger welfare check. They have no desire for a man in their life and really don't care much for their kids as long as the welfare check arrives on time. These kids are victimized by the greed of women who want a larger welfare check.

Hopefully this comment is as outrageous as yours.

 

[SleuthyGal]

Why is my comment outrageous? It's absolutely true that some men want nothing to do with the kids they sire. Take a look at the court dockets to get a sense of this. I'm DEFENDING the men who do want to be with their kids--and that includes BC.

And I agree with you that some women also do not care about having an intact family for their kids and will have kids without thinking about the family unit and yes, sometimes that does include greed and the welfare check. These things do happen in our society.

Neither situation applies to the Cooper case.