Day 2 The Pineapple in the Bowl/ 12 Days of JonBenet

[Tortoise]

I noticed in the latest suit (against CBS) filed by Lin Wood on behalf of Burke, that he says (and I'll look in a while for the exact quote, so this is going from memory on what I read last night) that Boulder PD discovered that it wasn't pineapple but fruit cocktail in JonBenet's digestive tract.

Now, to me, this appears to be quite obviously the latest lie and piece of spin (seeing as Paula Woodward said the same in her new book) that is very important for them to promulgate.

The pineapple was Lou Smit's "bugaboo". Perhaps the biggest piece of information that belies their intruder theory, and doesn't sit with their changed story that JonBenet was asleep when they got home.

Now I don't believe it for one second, but just why do they think that fruit cocktail changes anything? If Priscilla served fruit cocktail with pineapple in it, the police would have heard about it, because they would have to have assumed that JonBenet picked out the pineapple to eat and there would have been no "bugaboo". So that plainly never happened.

Do the Ramsey spin team really think it is more likely that an intruder fed JonBenet fruit cocktail? Brought it with him to entice her to eat? No, I think it's merely to distance JonBenet from the bowl of pineapple that had Burke's prints on it.

How on earth did this fruit cocktail story ever get feet?

It's satisfying to see them still squirming with the evidence, this and the handwriting comparisons.

What was most interesting about listening to Cina Wong on Websleuth's radio the other evening was finding out that there is no comparison scale used by handwriting experts anywhere in the world, of 1 to 5, with 5 being not a match and 1 being a match. Another lie they invented. I expect someone used it as an expression when talking to them, said something like well if I had to rate it on a scale of 1 to 5 I'd put it at x.

These Ramsey lies and myths begin to take on a life of their own (Paula Woodward take note) and we must all be alert to them before they start becoming accepted as facts. They are not facts. They are lies. And the Ramsey's are still scared of the real facts. They must be, to be disseminating lies, in court documents no less, to distance themselves from inculpatory evidence.

 

[Tortoise]

Quoted from the defamation suit filed against CBS, page 97 of 108.

"Upon information and belief, Defendants had actual knowledge and failed to disclose that a Boulder PD analysis after the autopsy determined that JonBenet's small intestine had the remnants cherries, grapes and pineapple - common fruit cocktail ingredients. Yet, because the presence of cherries and grapes completely undermines Defendant's series of events, Defendants consciously fail to share their knowledge with the viewer."

 

[andreww]

Rediculous. The autopsy specifically stated that it was a large chunk of fresh pineapple. What you find in a fruit cocktail are generally tiny pieces. My guess, seeing as they just came from a Christmas party, is that JB may have had a piece of fruit cake or something. There is a huge difference between the stomach and the small intestine as well. Why would one piece of pineapple remain undigested while the rest makes it to the intestine. Makes no sense.


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[Ambitioned]

Do the Ramsey spin team really think it is more likely that an intruder fed JonBenet fruit cocktail? Brought it with him to entice her to eat? No, I think it's merely to distance JonBenet from the bowl of pineapple that had Burke's prints on it.

I agree with you. It's all to say that bowl with the prints on it had nothing to do with JB.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

Quoted from the defamation suit filed against CBS, page 97 of 108.

"Upon information and belief, Defendants had actual knowledge and failed to disclose that a Boulder PD analysis after the autopsy determined that JonBenet's small intestine had the remnants cherries, grapes and pineapple - common fruit cocktail ingredients. Yet, because the presence of cherries and grapes completely undermines Defendant's series of events, Defendants consciously fail to share their knowledge with the viewer."

What I don't get about this new fruit cocktail story is why it took so long to come out if the report is credible. Lou Smit went to absurd lengths to explain away the pineapple (eg the "intruder brought Tupperware with pineapple in it to JB's room to entice her before stun gunning and loosely restraining her" theory), but he never mentioned any other fruit. And yet I can't imagine this report came after LS resigned with his PowerPoint. It was established early on that it was pineapple, there's no real reason to believe they'd decide to test it again after he left in September '98. But if LS had access to this report, why didn't he use it?

 

[SweetCaramels]

He mentioned the fruit cocktail inthe suit against Spitzer as well.

 

[icedtea4me]

I am familiar with the PTMJB theory. While I disagree ( with the poster BM), that this was a well planned in advance event ( purple Christmas etc.), I can see how some elements of the book may have reminded PR of its story and may have therefore played a role in the staging part. In the PTMJB story for example, Miss Brody is called into the head mistress' office and is confronted with a handwritten letter, that was written by 2 students of her ("childish tone"). The letter was addressed to another teacher, a close friend of hers. Here is the letter scene:

[video=youtube;OE1v7BW6UKk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE1v7BW6UKk[/video]

Also, besides the pineapples with cream, there are other eery coincidences like:

• ""Oh dear," said Rose out loud one day when they were settled to essay writing, "I can't remember how you spell 'possession.' Are there two s's or -?""
• "Painting" plays a big role in the story (paint a painting, modelling, artist)
• Class of "9 year olds", one of her classes
• obsessively leading "her" girls into a life of beauty, seduction, sacrifice
• inappropriately speaking to and about minors
• Intruder and intrusion is being mentioned more than once
• special bond to one of "her" girls, fusion of the girl's and Miss Brodie's identities ( identity disorder?)
• "It was impossible to know how much Miss Brodie planned by deliberation, or how much she worked by instinct alone. However, in this, the first test of her strength, she had the VICTORY."
• one of her students dies as a sacrifice to help her brother in war "She died a heroine"
• purple students' uniforms
• "Rose, who was famous for her sex-appeal." "Rose will be a great lover. She is above the common moral code, it does not apply to her." Miss Brody is talking about a minor here, about one of her students (again identity fusion?)

Definitely worth reading the book or (re) watching the movie. There is much more, that could be compared to JBR and PR. In one of the scenes, students are hanging a girl down from the stair reeling - head down- and just holding her by the legs, in an effort to make her "talk" about a secret. Not that that possibly happened to Jonbenet, but it certainly raised my attention.

-Nin

[video=youtube;OPtd5lfHLzg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPtd5lfHLzg[/video]

Patsy told detectives that the DotW underwear were for Jenny, her niece. I found it quite intriguing that at 2:40 of this clip, the older woman declares that Jenny will be the lover of Teddy, the man with whom she [the older woman] was in love. Then, at 3:23, the older woman finds out that the young girl Sandy was Teddy's lover. Sandy and Jenny were the girls who ate the pineapple and, as they did so, talked about sex.

 

[icedtea4me]

Yeah, I love how Lou Smit is obviously the only person in that exchange who thinks there was a stranger in the house that night. Of course John comes back later and tries to pin it on Santa. JB loved Santa, she'd eat Santa's pineapple!!

Except we all know Bill McReynolds wasn't feeding her pineapple that night so unfortunately for John we're back to square one.


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John referred to himself as Santa in chapter 1 of DoI.

 

[Without_A_Trace]

Besides pineapple, there were also cherries and grapes found in her stomach, so she was eating fruit cocktail. The bowl in the kitchen contained pineapple only, so Jonbenet got the fruit somewhere that wasn't from that bowl.

 

[Without_A_Trace]

Besides pineapple, there's were also cherries and grapes found in her stomach, so she was eating fruit cocktail. The bowl in the kitchen contained pineapple only, so Jonbenet got the fruit somewhere that wasn't from that bowl.

 

[TinaD]

Besides pineapple, there were also cherries and grapes found in her stomach, so she was eating fruit cocktail. The bowl in the kitchen contained pineapple only, so Jonbenet got the fruit somewhere that wasn't from that bowl.

That has never been mentioned anywhere I have read - where did you get this information from, please?

 

[sbaughman]

That has never been mentioned anywhere I have read - where did you get this information from, please?

10 months after the autopsy BPD finally decided to get an expert opinion on the analysis of JBR's stomach contents, and in October 1997 they met with experts at the Univ of Colorado-Boulder. In December 1997 they gave their report to BPD stating that grapes, grape skins, cherries, and pineapple were found in JBR. This is mentioned in Woodward's book, her sources are BPD Police Reports #1-1156 and #1-1349


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[UKGuy]

Besides pineapple, there's were also cherries and grapes found in her stomach, so she was eating fruit cocktail. The bowl in the kitchen contained pineapple only, so Jonbenet got the fruit somewhere that wasn't from that bowl.

Without_A_Trace,
What she ate and where it came from is less important than that she ate anything at all.


Eating the pineapple demonstrates JonBenet was awake after her parents allegedly placed her sleeping to bed

Forensic lab results showed the pineapple in JonBenet's stomach originated from the bowl in the breakfast bar.
.

.

 

[CircuitGuy]

I find this quote interesting from JR -

13 LOU SMIT: Next question is,
14 is could someone have gotten her up and
15 fed her pineapple? I mean that is a
16 logical question, and that's the question
17 we have to answer.
18 JOHN RAMSEY: I can't
19 imagine that somebody could have gotten
20 her up, fed her pineapple, and she
21 wouldn't have screamed bloody murder.
22 LOU SMIT: Why?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: What if it was a
24 stranger.
25 LOU SMIT: Well, it was.

What if it was a stranger? WHAT? What do you mean "what if?"
Though I agree, if someone got her up in the middle of the night and fed her pineapple she would have screamed.
Throughout this interview JR agrees that there is really no way that this could have been an intruder that fed her in the night. But SOMEONE did. So let's take JRs word for it. It wasn't an intruder...

John agrees there's no way a stranger could have gotten her up without anyone hearing and fed her pineapple. By this reason of John's if they found pineapple in her stomach, then it must not have been a stranger. JR denies it was him, PR, or BR. So by his reasoning it must have been an intruder who JBR knew. Might JR have been trying to lead them down the "inside job" path?

Regarding JR's reasoning, it's hard to imagine a stranger spiriting her away without anyone hearing regardless of the pineapple. I'll grant him that the pineapple makes the scenario even more improbable. Maybe he wants to frame the pineapple as evidence for a non-stranger intruder since he knows the evidence for any intruder, known or stranger, is thin.

 

[sbaughman]

Without_A_Trace,
What she ate and where it came from is less important than that she ate anything at all.


Eating the pineapple demonstrates JonBenet was awake after her parents allegedly placed her sleeping to bed

Forensic lab results showed the pineapple in JonBenet's stomach originated from the bowl in the breakfast bar.
.

.

What is the source on the forensic lab results showing that the pineapple in her stomach was matched to the bowl in the breakfast bar? I wasn't aware of the pineapple in the bowl being tested at all, much less matched to the stomach contents, and I'd love to learn more about the testing that showed that, it sounds interesting.

I disagree that what JBR ate isn't as important as that she ate anything at all. There was an expert opinion that identified grape, grape skins, and cherries with the pineapple. The only thing found at the Ramsey's was a bowl of pineapple- so how did the other things get in her stomach and where did they go? Had this gone to trial, that report would have certainly come out, so how would the other things in her stomach be explained? Personally, I don't see the pineapple as strong evidence of anything other than Patsy gave inconsistent statements. Digestion time isn't an exact science, and according to Schiller, a Boulder ME said he believed the pineapple was eaten at 4:30pm. Even if the pineapple was eaten 1-2 hours before death, Patsy and John both place themselves in bed by 10-1030, so it's possible she could have gotten herself up, seen the pineapple out, and eaten a piece. Just because John/Patsy say they would have heard her, or said they cleaned up the breakfast dishes doesn't mean they did. Not saying that is what happened, just that that is a possibility. Even if Patsy is lying about the pineapple, so what? Just because she lied, about her eating pineapple doesn't mean she killed her. I just don't see the pineapple as compelling evidence of the Ramsey's guilt, so I don't think it ultimately would have helped make a case against them if this case had gone to trial. I think it would have been problematic because it creates more questions than answers, but that's JMO.


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[Userid]

Without_A_Trace,
What she ate and where it came from is less important than that she ate anything at all.


Eating the pineapple demonstrates JonBenet was awake after her parents allegedly placed her sleeping to bed

Forensic lab results showed the pineapple in JonBenet's stomach originated from the bowl in the breakfast bar.
.

.

Actually, I'd say both are equally important/significant; but yes, the fact she had that undigested at the time of her death is also important.

 

[AndHence]

In addition to the undigested pineapple, there are strong reasons to believe she was awake after returning from the Whites' party. Burke testified that he remembers JonBenet helping to carry gifts upstairs when they got back to the house. Did anyone ever look into the way in which her hair was styled when she was found? I remember reading that it was an ornate and uncomfortable style to sleep in and may have been done after the attack.

 

[UKGuy]

What is the source on the forensic lab results showing that the pineapple in her stomach was matched to the bowl in the breakfast bar? I wasn't aware of the pineapple in the bowl being tested at all, much less matched to the stomach contents, and I'd love to learn more about the testing that showed that, it sounds interesting.

I disagree that what JBR ate isn't as important as that she ate anything at all. There was an expert opinion that identified grape, grape skins, and cherries with the pineapple. The only thing found at the Ramsey's was a bowl of pineapple- so how did the other things get in her stomach and where did they go? Had this gone to trial, that report would have certainly come out, so how would the other things in her stomach be explained? Personally, I don't see the pineapple as strong evidence of anything other than Patsy gave inconsistent statements. Digestion time isn't an exact science, and according to Schiller, a Boulder ME said he believed the pineapple was eaten at 4:30pm. Even if the pineapple was eaten 1-2 hours before death, Patsy and John both place themselves in bed by 10-1030, so it's possible she could have gotten herself up, seen the pineapple out, and eaten a piece. Just because John/Patsy say they would have heard her, or said they cleaned up the breakfast dishes doesn't mean they did. Not saying that is what happened, just that that is a possibility. Even if Patsy is lying about the pineapple, so what? Just because she lied, about her eating pineapple doesn't mean she killed her. I just don't see the pineapple as compelling evidence of the Ramsey's guilt, so I don't think it ultimately would have helped make a case against them if this case had gone to trial. I think it would have been problematic because it creates more questions than answers, but that's JMO.


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sbaughman,

Digestion time isn't an exact science

Neither is the estimate for Time Of Death, but everyone gets by OK. Pineapple is constituted of mainly water and passes very quickly through the digestive system. More so in a child. So back of an envelope estimates are not far out here.

Personally, I don't see the pineapple as strong evidence of anything other than Patsy gave inconsistent statements.

The pineapple residue directly contradicts both parents version of events.

Evidence of other fruit residue simply compounds this contradiction.

The pineapple is the bugaboo in the case according to Lou Smit. It also implies the parents were ignorant regarding the pineapple snack.

Perfect Murder Perfect Town pp 558

In the Ramseys' dining room, just steps away from the kitchen, the police had found a bowl with fresh pineapple in it. Meyer noted in his report that the pineapple in JonBenet's small intestine was in near-perfect condition-it had sharp edges and looked as if it had been recently eaten and poorly chewed.

JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, pp 192

"Our experts studied the pineapple in the stomach and reported that it was fresh-cut pineapple, consistent down to the rind with what had been found in the bowl. It was solid proof that it wasn't canned pineapple, and what were the chances that an intruder would have brought in a fresh pineapple to cut up for his victim?

JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, pp 228

By examining the condition of the pineapple in the stomach and the rate of digestion, Spitz put the time of death "about or before 1 A.M.

Good Morning America, Steve Thomas

Tammy at 12:24pm ET:
What are your thoughts on the findings of pineapple in JonBenét's stomach?

Steve Thomas at 12:25pm ET:
"There was fresh pineapple in the victim's upper digestive tract. There was fresh pineapple, consistent with the rind, in a bowl on the breakfast table with Patsy's fingerprint on it. That affords me a rather simple explanation, given it was fresh pineapple.

i.e. not canned, e.g. Fruit Salad, has the light bulb flashed?

Steve Thomas, excerpt

Much much later we were able to have the scientists make the determination that the pineapple in the bowl was fresh pineapple (as opposed to canned), and was compared to the pineapple in the victim — consistent right down to the rind in both cases as fresh pineapple.

Bonita Papers, excerpt

Then examining the contents of the stomach and intestines, Dr. Meyer found the substance in the stomach was unidentifiable, but chunky matter, appearing to be pineapple, was found in the small intestine. Dr. Meyer noted for the record that food found in the intestines would have been consumed approximately two hours prior.

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[UKGuy]

In addition to the undigested pineapple, there are strong reasons to believe she was awake after returning from the Whites' party. Burke testified that he remembers JonBenet helping to carry gifts upstairs when they got back to the house. Did anyone ever look into the way in which her hair was styled when she was found? I remember reading that it was an ornate and uncomfortable style to sleep in and may have been done after the attack.

AndHence,

Did anyone ever look into the way in which her hair was styled when she was found?

I termed this as asymmetric ponytails, and discussed it here on websleuths.

Autopsy Report, excerpt

The scalp is covered by long blonde hair which is fixed in two ponytails, one on top of the head secured by a cloth hair tie and blue elastic band, and one in the lower back of the head secured by a blue elastic band.

The ponytails could have arrived either before going to bed, or if she never reached it, then after?


Steve Thomas, Interview excerpt, 1997

ST: Did JonBenet normally sleep in addition to her jewelry with any hair ties in her hair.

PR: Usually, uh, a rubberband.

ST: Pulled back into a single ponytail.

PR: Back, ponytail, yeah.

Lou Smit, Interview excerpt, 1998

6 LOU SMIT: Did JonBenet have hair

7 ties in her hair?

8 JOHN RAMSEY: She -- she did from

9 time to time, yeah. (INAUDIBLE).

The situation is similar to that of the size-6 Bloomingdales, i.e. BPD know if she wore ponytails to the White's Christmas Party, as they have the photos.

IMO, Patsy dressed JonBenet's hair for bed on Christmas Night. If not then we have, as per BDI All, courtesy of Kolar, Burke Ramsey applying the hair ties and ponytails.

The asymmetry of the ponytails is a small detail that links with the Bloomingdale size-12's along with Burke's long johns.

These are details that Patsy would never have allowed if she were staging the crime-scene.

Unless ... she was framing Burke?

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[CircuitGuy]

Her parents not having an explanation for the pineapple does not mean for sure they didn't know she ate pineapple just before she died. They were upset and had hours to develop a coverup narrative and staging. They were bound to miss clues like this.