Day 5 The John, Patsy and Burke's behavior/ The 12 days of JonBenet

[Sunshine4Me]

I forgot to add what gets me about Burke. In his interview with the child psychologist he was asked what he thought happened to Jonbenet, he said,
"I think someone took her down in the basement … took a knife out [losing words, he made a slashing gesture] or hit her on the head."
"He said the house was usually always locked.
His descriptions were flat and indifferent." - from Steve Thomas's book "Inside The Ramsey Murder Investigation" p.138

His parents said they never discussed the details of her murder with him, and he couldn't have known at that time that she was hit on the head any other way. And he acted out the motions for the child psychologist, strange to say the least. I don't think that siblings of murder victims generally act out their murders. There are other things but this gets me the most.

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[BOESP]

WHY is this the first time I've heard this??? I can't believe I had not read this by now! Again..... Thank you for this post! Very interesting!!!!:thinking:

Have you read the Bonita Papers? If not, they are equally interesting. Here's a link:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...uot-Unedited-Notes-From-Ramsey-Case-Documents

 

[PositiveLight]

Have you read the Bonita Papers? If not, they are equally interesting. Here's a link:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...uot-Unedited-Notes-From-Ramsey-Case-Documents

Going to read now! Thank you for the link!

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

I just caught the end of the AE special again where John talks about how his 9 year old granddaughter saw a tabloid accusing her grandfather of murder and that isn't right, she shouldn't have to be ashamed of him or their family name, etc, that's why this case needs to be solved. And yeah, that sucks, but as usual where's the concern for justice for their murdered daughter? As usual, it's just boo hoo, our reputation.. And they've been making statements like that since their first CNN interview. Everyone knows the "we're not angry" line and comparing their situation to Susan Smith and OJ (rather than, say, Marc Klaas) but I found this line pretty baffling:

PR: That's why we have to find out who did this, so the nation can be restored to knowing that there are still good Christian families and most of our country is that way, it's just the bad ones gets the publicity. It can't go on.

So...is she accidentally admitting they are one of the "bad ones" getting all this publicity? "There's someone out there" but more important than that, let's make sure all of America can have faith in "good Christian families" and the Ramseys in particular being a "good Christian family." Talk about warped priorities.

​

 

[BBB167893]

I just caught the end of the AE special again where John talks about how his 9 year old granddaughter saw a tabloid accusing her grandfather of murder and that isn't right, she shouldn't have to be ashamed of him or their family name, etc, that's why this case needs to be solved. And yeah, that sucks, but as usual where's the concern for justice for their murdered daughter? As usual, it's just boo hoo, our reputation.. And they've been making statements like that since their first CNN interview. Everyone knows the "we're not angry" line and comparing their situation to Susan Smith and OJ (rather than, say, Marc Klaas) but I found this line pretty baffling:

PR: That's why we have to find out who did this, so the nation can be restored to knowing that there are still good Christian families and most of our country is that way, it's just the bad ones gets the publicity. It can't go on.

So...is she accidentally admitting they are one of the "bad ones" getting all this publicity? "There's someone out there" but more important than that, let's make sure all of America can have faith in "good Christian families" and the Ramseys in particular being a "good Christian family." Talk about warped priorities.

​

Sometimes I wonder if Patsy wanted to confess.

 

[DrollForeignFaction]

You're not the only one, SuperDave. Tom Miller said the same thing to Peter Boyles, that Patsy just couldn't stop confessing every time she opened her mouth. I don't have my book with me but there's also an interesting part in PMPT where Patsy comes into the station along with her lawyer to defend Pasta Jay after his arrest. I think she was actually talking to the sheriff. She made some questionable statements and they got the impression that she wanted to tell them something but didn't press her about it for some reason.
It's too bad Douglas only interviewed John first and one-on-one because John will never crack. He should have interviewed Patsy first instead of just bringing her in to be interviewed alongside John.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

I always thought Patsy did it and that John, while probably not involved in the death, immediately suspected Patsy and he then became actively involved by shielding her from the police.

The red flags for me: #1 The parents' lack of concern for contacting every and anyone including police, in direct violation of the instructions from the kidnappers. #2 - The note from the kidnappers. Even before seeing any of the comparisons with Patsy's handwriting, I thought one of the parents, probably Patsy, wrote it.

 

[MsJosie]

All three of them know how they murdered JonBenet. People higher up or in the right job position helped the cover up....and there were not many of those, two at the most. Dad had their number and these people will never tell. Parents did all they could to mess up the investigation, LE knew it but were stopped, maybe by one of their own, from getting the right evidence and info. As for the 'Touch DNA' reported in 2 places on JonBenets clothing.....that DNA will never be in any data base because it was planted by Dad's accomplice....maybe from a cadaver. Far fetched, maybe, but not impossible...the way the evidence was contaminated at the crime scene and delay of it being taken it would be easy. IF JonBenet was 'kidnapped' the house was still a crime scene but never was it treated as one and should have been searched from top to bottom. What a mess.

IF it was my little one, and I truely wanted answers I would approve to let another autopsy be done, even years later...unless I was hiding something. Technology has come a long way....and could prove a lot.

As for the brother. He bothers me in many ways. How did he know how the murder took place and with what and be so graphic for a child that was sleeping and he was 'protected from the story'? That should have been an alert to anyone listening to his 'interview'. I cannot believe it was an outsider.

And Dad...all about him and the family....what about JonBenet? I do not buy his story.

 

[Airasae]

Could it be discussing how lawyer is billing? "You are on realtime" ...paid by the hour?

Rather than a flat fee.

Being paid by the hour would be very costly and surely you would expect some products from this money you are shelling out....

So it seems crazy that nobody has consulted with the Ramseys on their findings....

MOO


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This is from Wikipedia:
Real-time text (RTT) is text transmitted instantly as it is typed or created. Recipients can immediately read the message while it is being written, without waiting.

I still don't understand what is happening in the interview though.

 

[Airasae]

PR wearing the same clothes she wore the night before. Everyone who knew her said she wouldn't be caught dead in the same outfit two days in a row.

Boulder PD losing track of JR's whereabouts in the home for something close to an hour that morning. Huge red flag given the fact that JR "discovered" her body soon afterwards. Trying to fly out of Boulder on a phony business meeting, staying away from his wife.

Overall I'd say the biggest behavioral red flag is the massive legal wall they built between themselves and police. And I'm someone who fervently believes that any criminal suspect should lawyer up. But you can lawyer up and still cooperate in the interest of finding a killer. The Ramseys did nothing of the sort.

In Linda Ardnt's deposition for damages against BPD she emphasised that she didn't lose track of JR for an extended period of time (10:40am to Noon) just that she hadn't kept him in her line of sight at all times.

I 100% agree with you concerning the lawyering. They absolutely should have lawyered up but they absolutely should have co-operated. Families of victims usually hound police for information and provide as much as they can.

 

[BBB167893]

You're not the only one, SuperDave. Tom Miller said the same thing to Peter Boyles, that Patsy just couldn't stop confessing every time she opened her mouth. I don't have my book with me but there's also an interesting part in PMPT where Patsy comes into the station along with her lawyer to defend Pasta Jay after his arrest. I think she was actually talking to the sheriff. She made some questionable statements and they got the impression that she wanted to tell them something but didn't press her about it for some reason.
It's too bad Douglas only interviewed John first and one-on-one because John will never crack. He should have interviewed Patsy first instead of just bringing her in to be interviewed alongside John.

Yeah, I listened to that Boyles show last night. If not for her son, Burke, I think Patsy might have confessed and...well, unless someone insists, I'd rather not mention it.

 

[claudicici]

PR wearing the same clothes she wore the night before. Everyone who knew her said she wouldn't be caught dead in the same outfit two days in a row.

.

Wow I just happened to read the sample of Pam Archuleta's poorly written book "What the Pilot's wife knew"

"Patsy looked so lovely in her fall outfit of a blazer and nice woolen pants. She told me she often had to change her clothes depending on her mood, and the weather because it was so unpredictable around here unlike Atlanta where they had lived previously. She told me she would drive John crazy changing clothes so often. “I got use to changing clothes a lot when I was a contestant in the Miss America contest,” Patsy stated."

.....so this is coming from her supporter,smh There's no way she was sleeping in the same outfit she wore to a Christmas party the night before.....

 

[Airasae]

BOESP,
Nobody can tell the future, including politicians. So the parents never knew what was coming. BR was moved precisely because he was toxic, the parents assumed out of sight out of mind etc?

The parents could handle all the questions, but Burke, they were not so sure, lets get him out of here. So he was gone after making his bed.

Here is LHP's take on the case: http://someoneisgettingawaywithmurder.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/death-of-innocent.html

.

To me this information is just explains why PR & JR were distant the morning of.
The rest of the information is salacious and speculative.
Although I would like to read transcripts of her police interview with regard to JonBenet screaming every time PR cleaned her up after soiling herself.

 

[Airasae]

A lot of things set me off with these three.
MOO in no particular order...
JR: His lack of emotional support to his wife and son during those hours.
His demeanor changing right before she was discovered by him... getting anxious.
Not freaking out that PR had called the cops when the note specifically said not to....
"Cordial" as LA put it.
Checking mail
Making plans to fly out
Not worried when the 10 am time passed.
Not tearing the house apart and looking for daughter or clues
Not being open and helpful with the cops
Never trying to find her killer.


PR: Her fake hysteria on 911 call.
Supposedly not reading the ransom note but knew enough to make specific references in 911 call.
Not immediately grabbing her son and putting him in her lap and protecting him from the "foreign faction"
Calling friends over
Makeup in place
Hair in place
Outfit from night before still on
Allowing son to be sent to another residence.. again... foreign faction
Not seeming concerned when FW screamed for an ambulance
Not (excuse my language) BAT **** CRAZY the whole day and especially after 10am (I would've required a horse tranquilizer!)
Seeming to be in a broad way play
Honestly never seriously questioning and wondering about her son or husband's involvement Especially regarding the sexual abuse. (and every other male in her life!)
I would've ripped everyone to shreds until I found the perp. Including my husband and son! Just a mother's instinct for me personally so this is possibly me just being an over protective mama bear and questioning her reasons.
Never tried to be helpful to the cops
Never looked for her daughter's killer

BR: His smile in the Dr.Phil teaser's sets my teeth on edge. Like, I was literally grinding my teeth watching them. Something is off about that kid and I've alwayssss said that. Even in the first days he was the one I felt did it IMHO and my family was shocked I said it.... then later agreed with me that he may have been part of it if not the reason for her death.
IDK..... he just always gave me the creeps? Even though he was 9.... There have only been a few kids that did that to me... set my radar off... and it ended up as they grew older it was for a good reason. I will leave it at that. My instinct was always right about those kids and I don't see my gut instinct being wrong about him.
I can't put my finger on it but something is just not right about him. (The Bad Seed)
I will see where i am with him after all the upcoming interviews etc.
JMHO mind you and I could be wrong and I hope I am honestly.

In his police interviews at the time he smiled whenever the psychologist mention JonBenet too. (Although I can't be sure as the images are not super clear.)
To me that's a tell. He is not a good liar and he knows something.

 

[Airasae]

- And then there was that comment she made all drugged up about how "we didn't mean for this to happen."
http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenet-foundations.htm

Is this theCNN interview shortly after the crime?

 

[Mountain_Kat]

BOESP,
Nobody can tell the future, including politicians. So the parents never knew what was coming. BR was moved precisely because he was toxic, the parents assumed out of sight out of mind etc?

The parents could handle all the questions, but Burke, they were not so sure, lets get him out of here. So he was gone after making his bed.

Here is LHP's take on the case: http://someoneisgettingawaywithmurder.blogspot.co.uk/2010/11/death-of-innocent.html

.

Alrighty. Now we know that JR's pee pee is salty and sour. Thanks a lot, Linda. uke:

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

In his police interviews at the time he smiled whenever the psychologist mention JonBenet too. (Although I can't be sure as the images are not super clear.)
To me that's a tell. He is not a good liar and he knows something.

I've always felt that Burke was not a good liar and I'm sure his parents knew it. I don't think they prompted him about too much. Maybe to say he stayed in bed and didn't come downstairs in the morning. That is why they wanted him out of the house, not knowing he would be questioned by LE at the whites.

 

[rojamom]

PR wearing the same clothes she wore the night before. Everyone who knew her said she wouldn't be caught dead in the same outfit two days in a row.

Boulder PD losing track of JR's whereabouts in the home for something close to an hour that morning. Huge red flag given the fact that JR "discovered" her body soon afterwards. Trying to fly out of Boulder on a phony business meeting, staying away from his wife.

Overall I'd say the biggest behavioral red flag is the massive legal wall they built between themselves and police. And I'm someone who fervently believes that any criminal suspect should lawyer up. But you can lawyer up and still cooperate in the interest of finding a killer. The Ramseys did nothing of the sort.

Yes!! Innocent parents would have been camped out at police headquarters wanting to find their daughter's killer. Not hiding behind high-powered lawyers and PR firms and dodging questions and demanding special treatment and basically avoiding ANY sort of interview with investigators for 4 months after the crime. That is just not something innocent parents do. I believe the father of Polly Klass has said the same thing on the record in a media interview about this very topic.

 

[Deleted member 122964]

I agree with many of the opinions everyone has expressed here so far. I do believe it is difficult to say precisely how a parent should act during such a situation; everyone processes information and grief in their own unique way. However, I do strongly feel that the following behaviors stand out as highly suspect:

* The Ramey's house was huge. Given this, I find it suspect that they 1) left Burke unattended in his room and 2) that neither parent seemed to be searching the house from top to bottom. If it were my husband and myself, one of us would have our son with us waiting by the phone for the kidnappers' call and waiting for the police and the other one of us would be desperately searching our entire house and yard for our daughter and/or additional clues. The fact that they just waited for law enforcement and left Burke alone is a major red flag.

* The ransom note warned against contacting anyone. In light of this, I find it highly suspect that they called so many friends so soon. Yes, I would have contacted law enforcement, but I would have begged law enforcement to be discreet about their arrival because of the ransom note's threats. I would worry about the consequences the arrival of people could have if the kidnappers were really watching the house. I would be scared to death of making the kidnappers nervous or making them act. So, I would only ask the absolutely necessary folks to come (i.e. law enforcement), and I would ask them to do so in a way that avoided being seen/recognized. Openly asking so many people to their home that morning--in my opinion-- is highly suspect.

* JR carrying his daughter's lifeless body up from the cellar is highly suspect--in my opinion. I believe that it is common knowledge not to move an injured or dead person upon discovery. Of course efforts to administer CPR would be completely understandable--but I have never read anything that indicated that JR did try to do CPR. I personally would have screamed for help, tried to remove the string from her neck, and tried to administer CPR. I would be afraid to move her in case there was a neck injury; I always remember that you are not supposed to move someone because of the risk of making the injury worse. I also would not want to contaminate the crime scene if it was evident that she was dead. I wouldn't want to mess up any evidence that could help find the person who did it. Yet, JR didn't remove the string and didn't try to resuscitate his daughter. He picked her up and carried her upstairs. He is an intelligent person. He would have known better.

There are more points, but I feel these are the major ones that jump to my mind regarding that first morning.

 

[Airasae]

Yeah, I listened to that Boyles show last night. If not for her son, Burke, I think Patsy might have confessed and...well, unless someone insists, I'd rather not mention it.

I insist!