Day 7 The DNA/ 12 Days of JonBenet

[YouWho]

I just watched day two of the Dr. Phil 3-part special (part three is Monday). Some thoughts:

I don't find anything outrageous about his comment that JBR's eye was drooping in her casket at her funeral. That's because it is consistent with a nine years old's appropriate behavior in response to death which includes morbid fascination.

JR continues to throw Ramsey friends under the bus by saying their friends pressured them to go on CNN just days after their daughter was murdered.

BR does not answer the question posed by DP re: the ransom note - Does that look like your mother's handwriting? He dodges it by going into a story about how she'd always bug him about having good handwriting and she always made him re-write stuff to try and get hum to have good handwriting, and he thinks it's too sloppy. A simple yes, no or I don't onow would have been better. I think he suspects she did write it.

I had never seen or heard of the Larry King interview with both the Ramseys and Steve Thomas! I must find and watch that interview.

DP asks, Did you go to the pageants? Answer: "I just remember she would just like, you know, go out and just flaunt whatever on stage, and she wasn't shy I guess." Im not sure why I dislike this statement. Could it be a hint of victim-blaming?

JR said this IS my final interview. Hmm. Interesting. Like someone else said, is he dying?

Child psychologist asks BR in video how long food does food normally sit out on the table? Answer: "Not very long."

But as others have pointed out, the biggest revelation was about the flashlight and BR's admission that he got up after being put to bed. Remember - the Ramseys, police and family friends all denied owning the flashlight, but now it comes to light that JR put BR to bed that might with the flashlight. (To quote NG... Bombshell!) DP: "Your dad has said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play." BR: "Yeah, I had some toy I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed. I wanted to get this thing out" (the new toy). I'm not big on the BDI, but this does suggest to me that - like others have said - he could have been a witness or it shows no intruder would be there waiting to kidnap the more valuable child... Why not kidnap Burke? He was a lot taller than JBr, but he was only 9, and thin. In fact, why not kidnap both and get double the ransom.

 

[MsJosie]

Hi all, although I have never posted before in this forum, I have followed this case for quite some time. I read PMPT awhile back and I admit to never fully committing to either RDI or IDI and remaining open to what I think is evidence strong enough to push me off that fence. DNA Evidence is one of those and I have always taken at face value the claims by Boulder PD and others in the know that the DNA was an artifact, and came from either the manufacturing process or contamination from the lab. I know many scoffed or dismissed the A&E Special, which admittedly was heavily pro-Ramsey, however there were a few points made or at least discussed that gave me pause and made me not be so quick to discount the DNA stuff anyway.

1. The DNA came from several different places, not just one, making it highly unlikely that it was a manufacturing artifact. I also thought they said it was on different articles of clothing? I know for sure one was on either side of the waistband of her leggings which definitely seems like an odd place for random DNA as opposed to it resulting from the action of pulling those on/off.
2. All lab workers, technicians, etc. were eliminated as a source of the DNA.
3. That the person could likely be of Hispanic origin.

Thoughts? It seems like everyone here is very strongly committed one way or another (mostly RDI) so I'm not trying to push one theory or another. I'm truly on the fence or maybe a flip-flopper is more accurate.

Also, I know there has been a lot of discussion regarding Burke as a possible perp, but I saw the snapshot in which he was excluded as a source of DNA, and I just don't believe that a 9-year old wouldn't get DNA on the crime scene, not having the sophistication to understand or even know what that was. Also, I find myself skeptical that all DNA is that easy to clean - after all there are a number of cases in which the perp tries to use water, bleach, etc. to clean - unsuccessfully I might add.

On the other hand...so so many bizarre things that are difficult to explain with an IDI theory...I mean really really illogical and difficult to IGNORE as was said above...so I don't know. This case drives me crazy!!!

P.S. I just saw the links above by Cynic, I will be checking those out ASAP, thank you!!!

I have seen the Hispanc theory before but I have never seen a source.

 

[MsJosie]

I'll just politely bow out of this thread.

I am following you but will read other threads about JB.

 

[Kittybunny]

Excellent DNA posts Kittybunny. Something else to consider concerning DNA is the claim that the Intruder(s) wore gloves. So why would an Intruder take those gloves off and risk leaving prints or DNA on the victim and her clothing.

Latent fingerprint testing and DNA testing was being used in 1996 albeit there were backlogs at the DNA testing labs. Still, wearing gloves at a crime scene then taking them off makes no sense to me.

Yes, that is really difficult to reconcile and imagine such a scenario. Why no DNA anywhere else? The only explanation I could come up with is that the (alleged) Intruder wanted to touch her directly at the moment in time...BUT that speaks of a real sexual motive and I don't think the evidence speaks to that at all...and if it was sexual sadism there should be touch DNA on the garrotte at the very least. All of it is just so freaking weird and illogical no matter who did it.

 

[Bitz]

I think the LACK of DNA is suspicious.

The wiping down of JB's body
the ransom note
the garrote
the bowl with PR's fingerprints and spoon with BR's - not JBR's.
Flashlight wiped clean
Pristine bedroom and "wine cellar"
Were there fingerprints or DNA on the bible?

 

[Tssiemer]

Where is this glass of ice tea coming from?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BBB167893]

JR continues to throw Ramsey friends under the bus by saying their friends pressured them to go on CNN just days after their daughter was murdered.

I'm sure they really twisted their arms.

BR does not answer the question posed by DP re: the ransom note - Does that look like your mother's handwriting? He dodges it by going into a story about how she'd always bug him about having good handwriting and she always made him re-write stuff to try and get hum to have good handwriting, and he thinks it's too sloppy. A simple yes, no or I don't onow would have been better. I think he suspects she did write it.

I agree. Right after, he said he didn't like looking at it. "Sloppy" was exactly the word John used back in 2001 to deny it could be Patsy's.

Well, Burke, that's why it's called disguised writing.

I hate to say it, but it's obvious to me that Burke's been coached six ways to Sunday. The interrogation specialist on ID said the same thing.

 

[Bitz]

Absolutely, SuperDave!!

 

[Kittybunny]

I have seen the Hispanc theory before but I have never seen a source.

Hi MsJosie, the A&E Special said it was the first time they were releasing that information; and to me it was implied that the source was Richard Eikenenbloom, because he is the one that said it on the show, but I googled and found nothing but the article about him being completely discredited in a recent court case. So who knows.

 

[madeleine]

Thank you so much for addressing my post. Very helpful. I really am trying to approach this with a completely open mind. I wasn't aware of cloth-to-cloth transfer being a possibility. And I guess there were so many people in and out that anyone really could be responsible for the DNA transfer.

And yes, agree on the "expert"!

BUT but but...in the infinitesimal possibility it is real/related just so I can put my mind at ease, were there any males of Hispanic origin on any suspect list, I wonder...

BUT NO! The ransom note to me, just cannot be reconciled with an IDI theory, it just can't.

the irony.i am convinced that if there wouldnt have been such a note way more people would have thought hey maybe IDI indeed, me included.it was the biggest mistake.proves how arrogant the writer was to believe that the cops will be stupid enough to buy such a bunch of childish crap.

 

[Airasae]

I had never seen or heard of the Larry King interview with both the Ramseys and Steve Thomas! I must find and watch that interview.

I have been looking EVERYWHERE!
If you find it, be sure to link

 

[Tadpole12]

The interrogation specialist on ID said the same thing.=SD

really.

 

[BOESP]

I have been looking EVERYWHERE!
If you find it, be sure to link

I don't think the filmed version is now available but here's a link to the transcript. It is well worth reading if you have time:

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0005/31/lkl.00.html

 

[Airasae]

https://art19.com/shows/real-crime-profile/episodes/17c132da-acb8-4ac7-967c-1eaf479d76a8

 

[lizzyk]

Do we know when the pants was last washed?
In an interview with police patsy was questioned as to why she wore the same clothes the morning of the 26th as she had the night before (read it on acandyrose dont have the link right now) and she said its because she hates doing washing. She would often wear the same shorts/jeans/pants two or three times before throwing it in the wash.
So what if the pants jonb wore was never washed after being bought? Tdna from whomever touched it while hanging in store would be on it.
Or if she wore it once or twice prior to that night at which time people helped her in the loo or to pull them up....
Or was it sent to drycleaners who handled it?

 

[sgrump]

Patsy received experimental cancer treatment from the NIH for ovarian cancer with all types of medical therapy involved.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3578715/

"The results revealed that not only post-transplant blood and buccal swab, but also recipient hair, up to now regarded as devoid of any donor’s cells, do not constitute entirely safe material for forensic purposes. Their analysis can lead to the false identification of gender or male haplotype. The investigation of sex-determining region Y and Y-chromosome short tandem repeats performed in female recipients with male donors resulted in the designation of donor’s DNA in hair cells as well as in blood and buccal swabs. Therefore, biological stains gathered from crime scenes should not be analysed exclusively based on the investigation of male-specific markers."

Read the whole article, not just the abstract. It's from 2012 so is new information, and the source is Patsy's own Hospital.

"This can lead to the existence of heterogeneous or diverse DNA material extracted from various tissues of the recipient, which would constitute a significant threat in forensic genetic investigations."

I think this is a significant finding. It's not CODIS that will ever be able to match the DNA it's from a NIH database.

 

[TexMex]

Patsy received experimental cancer treatment from the NIH for ovarian cancer with all types of medical therapy involved.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3578715/

"The results revealed that not only post-transplant blood and buccal swab, but also recipient hair, up to now regarded as devoid of any donor’s cells, do not constitute entirely safe material for forensic purposes. Their analysis can lead to the false identification of gender or male haplotype. The investigation of sex-determining region Y and Y-chromosome short tandem repeats performed in female recipients with male donors resulted in the designation of donor’s DNA in hair cells as well as in blood and buccal swabs. Therefore, biological stains gathered from crime scenes should not be analysed exclusively based on the investigation of male-specific markers."

Read the whole article, not just the abstract. It's from 2012 so is new information, and the source is Patsy's own Hospital.

"This can lead to the existence of heterogeneous or diverse DNA material extracted from various tissues of the recipient, which would constitute a significant threat in forensic genetic investigations."

I think this is a significant finding. It's not CODIS that will ever be able to match the DNA it's from a NIH database.

But if she left DNA at the crime scene on December 26th it would still match the DNA samples taken at the Police Department in Boulder on December 28th, right?

 

[sgrump]

"This can lead to the existence of heterogeneous or diverse DNA material extracted from various tissues of the recipient, which would constitute a significant threat in forensic genetic investigations."

I certainly think Jonbenet's criminal case is a forensic genetic investigation. I'm reading it as meaning DNA shed from fingernails, blood and skin does not always match the buccal swab DNA in patients that have had particular therapies - DNA results in some criminal investigations can be compromised, DNA results can be influenced from medical treatments. Question is what specific experimental therapies did she have? Were embryonic stem cells transplanted? Genetic therapy such as embryonic stem cell treatments are used to permanently alter genes and a patient's original biological DNA.

 

[kanzz]

I don't think the filmed version is now available but here's a link to the transcript. It is well worth reading if you have time:

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0005/31/lkl.00.html

Thanks for this link to the Larry King Live PR,JR, and Steve Thomas interview. Interesting.
Best line of the whole thing, imo:
"KING: Well, will you agree, Patsy, that almost none of it makes sense?"

 

[TexMex]

Patsy received experimental cancer treatment from the NIH for ovarian cancer with all types of medical therapy involved.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3578715/

"The results revealed that not only post-transplant blood and buccal swab, but also recipient hair, up to now regarded as devoid of any donor’s cells, do not constitute entirely safe material for forensic purposes. Their analysis can lead to the false identification of gender or male haplotype. The investigation of sex-determining region Y and Y-chromosome short tandem repeats performed in female recipients with male donors resulted in the designation of donor’s DNA in hair cells as well as in blood and buccal swabs. Therefore, biological stains gathered from crime scenes should not be analysed exclusively based on the investigation of male-specific markers."

Read the whole article, not just the abstract. It's from 2012 so is new information, and the source is Patsy's own Hospital.

"This can lead to the existence of heterogeneous or diverse DNA material extracted from various tissues of the recipient, which would constitute a significant threat in forensic genetic investigations."

I think this is a significant finding. It's not CODIS that will ever be able to match the DNA it's from a NIH database.

I recently read We Have Your Daughter. Chapter 6 details Pasty's experimental chemotherapy treatments at NCI in 1993. There were 8 treatments spaced 3 weeks apart. Three drugs were used at the same time at double the usual dose. Each chemo session lasted 36-48 hours. She also received IV fluids and blood transfusions.

IIRC stem cells were being researched in the early 1990's but I'm thinking they were not used for any type of medical treatments until at least 10 years later.