DC - Former President Donald Trump indicted, 4 federal counts in 2020 election interference, 1 Aug 2023, Trial 4 Mar 2024

[Elliot_Alderson]

If DT murdered someone and a grand jury indicted him, would that also be political persecution? I'm just wondering where the goal posts have been moved to.

 

[RANCH]

It’s interesting that he has this sort of “victimized underdog” status with his supporters. People died from covid with their last Facebook posts being memes about how covid was invented to stop his re-election.

Why do you think he’s so persecuted, exactly? I assume you can see that a lot of us here disagree with you (and I can tell you that some of the longtime names here are people I have NOT been on the same page with politically in the past, and yet here we are in alignment).

Do you think we’re all just … being mean to him?

I understand that members disagree with me and I'm totally fine with that. JMO.

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

I 100% agree with Ramaswamy’s statement bbm.

Ramaswamy sues DOJ, files fresh records request for Trump indictment details

Republican presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy on Tuesday announced he’s suing the Department of Justice (DOJ) and filing a new Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) records request for more details…

thehill.com

Ramaswamy, who’s running against Trump for the GOP nomination, said the indictments against Trump “selectively omit relevant facts and law” and argued “the corrupt federal police won’t stop until they’ve achieved their mission: eliminate Trump.”

According to the new filing, Ramaswamy’s campaign submitted a FOIA request in June seeking “documents and records in DOJ’s possession related to the decision to bring a federal criminal indictment” against Trump, after the former president was indicted on charges related to his handling of classified materials, following a separate DOJ investigation.

“The Campaign accordingly brings this suit to compel DOJ to immediately respond
to the Campaign’s FOIA request and promptly disclose all responsive, non-exempt records,” the complaint reads. Ramaswamy’s team said he’s also filing a new FOIA request for similar communications related to the new Jan. 6 indictment.

Ramaswamy argued that Trump “isn’t the real cause for what happened on Jan. 6,” and that the cause was instead “systematic and pervasive censorship of citizens” ahead of the riot.

 

[MadMcGoo]

THE RULES. Take some time to read over them again.

 

[MadMcGoo]

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[SouthAussie]

There is speculation that co-conspirator 6 is Boris Epshteyn.


An email sent by Boris Epshteyn, Trump’s campaign adviser and legal counsel, matches the description of an email that the indictment attributed to one of six unnamed co-conspirators, according to a New York Times report.

The email, sent on 7 December 2020, from Epshteyn to Giuliani and Giuliani’s son, Andrew, had the subject line “Attorneys for Electors Memo”, the paper writes.

The email states: “Dear Mayor, as discussed, below are the attorneys I would recommend for the memo on choosing electors,” and goes on to identify lawyers in seven states.

The indictment states that Co-conspirator 1 “spoke with Co-conspirator 6 regarding attorneys who could assist in the fraudulent elector effort in the targeted states” and received an email from Co-conspirator 6 “identifying attorneys in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.” Those are the seven states in the email that Epshteyn sent to Giuliani, the paper writes.

Trump lawyer hints defense will focus on free speech; ex-president will not have mugshot taken – as it happened

John Lauro claims four criminal charges over efforts to overturn 2020 election ‘absurd’; US officials say Trump will have fingerprints taken but no photo

www.theguardian.com

 

[RANCH]

Alan Dershowitz, a constitutional lawyer who served on Trump's defense team during his first impeachment, told Newsweek that the First Amendment is a sound argument for the former president to invoke "unless the government can prove beyond reasonable doubt that he actually knew and believed he had lost fairly."

Legal attorney Jonathan Turley agreed, saying that while he found the Justice Department's first indictment against Trump in the Mar-a-Lago confidential documents case to be "strong and well-supported," the second indictment lacks legal support and evidence.

"The implications of this filing for free speech are chilling," Turley told Newsweek. "If allowed to stand, the government could arrest any politician who fails to adhere to 'the truth' as laid out by the government."

Will Trump's First Amendment right implode Jack Smith Jan. 6 case?

Legal experts are divided over whether the new indictment infringes on former President Donald Trump's right to free speech.

www.newsweek.com

 

[MyBelle]

There is speculation that co-conspirator 6 is Boris Epshteyn.


An email sent by Boris Epshteyn, Trump’s campaign adviser and legal counsel, matches the description of an email that the indictment attributed to one of six unnamed co-conspirators, according to a New York Times report.

The email, sent on 7 December 2020, from Epshteyn to Giuliani and Giuliani’s son, Andrew, had the subject line “Attorneys for Electors Memo”, the paper writes.

The email states: “Dear Mayor, as discussed, below are the attorneys I would recommend for the memo on choosing electors,” and goes on to identify lawyers in seven states.

The indictment states that Co-conspirator 1 “spoke with Co-conspirator 6 regarding attorneys who could assist in the fraudulent elector effort in the targeted states” and received an email from Co-conspirator 6 “identifying attorneys in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.” Those are the seven states in the email that Epshteyn sent to Giuliani, the paper writes.

Trump lawyer hints defense will focus on free speech; ex-president will not have mugshot taken – as it happened

John Lauro claims four criminal charges over efforts to overturn 2020 election ‘absurd’; US officials say Trump will have fingerprints taken but no photo

www.theguardian.com

I forgot about him but that makes sense because he is an attorney. The fraudulent elector effort in so many states really blows my mind!

JMO

 

[Arkay]

OMG, similar situation. I live in NYC and everyone here knows he's a sleazy conman. When he was first running, one of my friends in particular was very nervous he would win. I assured her, laughing, that the GOP would never allow Trump to be their candidate. Welp, I was wrong.

He didn't win his hometown of NYC* in 2016 or 2020. Did the rest of the country get bamboozled because they like his tv reality show? Idk. Can't explain it.

jmo

* he did well on Staten Island

Same, neighbor!

I‘ve lived in NYC all my life. I met Trump once when I was a kid and once when I was an adult. As a child, I saw his father driving a car with the first vanity plates I’d ever seen—-FT, for Fred Trump.

I know that I don’t KNOW him, but I do feel that I grasp his thinking.

He’s always been an obnoxious oaf who cared about himself more than anything on Earth.

He was gloating when the newspapers ran headlines about Marla saying he was “the best sex” she’d ever had, even though it wrecked Ivana.

He actually was good-looking when he was young, rich and a playboy. He parlayed his dad’s money into becoming a major Manhattan real estate developer.

He could have enjoyed his life as a wealthy, lying, selfish guy, but IMO he yearned for the ultimate power trip.

He already had a private jet and multiple lavish homes, but those weren’t Air Force One, or the White House, with people saluting him, with “Hail to the Chief” playing. He couldn’t inspect the troops with Queen Elizabeth, or hang out with Putin, or have crowds of people waving flags with his name on them.

He needed to leap from The Apprentice to something bigger, so he went for the biggest prize. Now he doesn’t want to relinquish that.

He can’t have the world think he’s a loser, so he decided he didn’t lose.

The tragedy, IMO, is that people fall for this con job. Trump wasn’t interested in the work of governing or the needs of the country. He would squirm if he had to actually spend personal time with the people who invaded the Capitol. Those aren’t his people.

To me it’s so evident that the people he claims to care about are pawns in his chess game. They will vote for and donate to him. He uses Christian imagery, ”I‘m being indicted for YOU,” as a pretense for why his crimes have caught up to him.

SOMEBODY, MAKE IT ALL GO AWAY! (Jack Smith)????

ALL JMO

 

[Inthedetails]

Defendant Trump was not indicted simply because he spoke or because he told falsehoods.

The indictment states:
"The Defendant had a right, like every American, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim, falsely, that there had been outcome-determinative fraud during the election and that he had won." (page 2)

Link to the indictment: Read the full indictment against Trump for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election

 

[RANCH]

"Smith admits that politicians are protected in making false statements but then says Trump can be prosecuted because he failed to yield to the truth," Turley said. "While Smith could still flip witnesses or offer new evidence, this was a 'speaking indictment' that said little."

Turning Point USA Founder Charlie Kirk went even further to argue that it's not just the right to speech that Trump is guaranteed by the First Amendment, but also "a right to petition the government for redress of grievances."

Will Trump's First Amendment right implode Jack Smith Jan. 6 case?

Legal experts are divided over whether the new indictment infringes on former President Donald Trump's right to free speech.

www.newsweek.com

 

[AZLocal]

I live and vote in Arizona. Gotta admit that while I don’t care for Rusty Bowers, he acted with integrity when he refused to perform illegal acts for Trump. I think it’s really Important for the country to understand that Bowers is a huge fan of Trump. Bowers is extremely right wing, so it’s really hard to understand why Trump supporters still think this is somehow engineered by Biden. Bowers did not and does not want Biden to win, but unlike some other Republicans, he refused to violate the law. I’m glad Bowers kept Trump from disenfranchising Arizonans.

 

[AZLocal]

Defendant Trump was not indicted simply because he spoke or because he told falsehoods.

The indictment states:
"The Defendant had a right, like every American, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim, falsely, that there had been outcome-determinative fraud during the election and that he had won." (page 2)

Link to the indictment: Read the full indictment against Trump for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election

indeed, and as you’ve demonstrated, Smith addressed this issue literally on the first page of the indictment! It sure makes me wonder if people who can’t be bothered to read the indictment fully understand the scope of the crime. I very much doubt it.

The fact that Clark planned to use the military to gun down protesters should alarm every American.

 

[SouthAussie]

Defendant Trump was not indicted simply because he spoke or because he told falsehoods.

The indictment states:
"The Defendant had a right, like every American, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim, falsely, that there had been outcome-determinative fraud during the election and that he had won." (page 2)

Link to the indictment: Read the full indictment against Trump for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election

As the Washington Post says, DT has not been indicted because of the verbal lies he has been spreading, he has been indicted because of the efforts he made and the actions he took to unlawfully discount legitimate votes and subvert the election results.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/08/02/trump-indictment-defense-free-speech-jan-6/

 

[MyBelle]

Defendant Trump was not indicted simply because he spoke or because he told falsehoods.

The indictment states:
"The Defendant had a right, like every American, to speak publicly about the election and even to claim, falsely, that there had been outcome-determinative fraud during the election and that he had won." (page 2)

Link to the indictment: Read the full indictment against Trump for his alleged efforts to overturn the 2020 election

ITA. Trump has been indicted for his actions with his co-conspirators! I wonder how many of those fraudulent electors were tricked into participating.

JMO

 

[JerseyGirl]

Mike Pence set to be star witness in Donald Trump indictment trial

Former president is charged with trying to ‘defraud the United States’ and his deputy could be the man whose evidence proves key

www.telegraph.co.uk

John Lauro, a lawyer for Mr Trump, said: “We expect that he [Mr Pence] will be a witness.”

He added: “Mr Pence is a lawyer. Not once did he say ‘Mr Trump, what you’re asking me is criminal, don’t do that.’”

According to Mr Pence’s notes, during a call on Dec 29, 2020, Mr Trump falsely told his vice president that the “Justice Department [was] finding major infractions” in the election.

In another call Mr Pence told Mr Trump he could not use his ceremonial power on Jan 6 to alter the outcome.

At one point, according to his notes, Mr Trump told him he was “too honest”.

The indictment also said that, “as reflected in the Vice President’s contemporaneous notes, the defendant made knowingly false claims of election fraud” at a meeting on Jan 4.

Mr Trump was alleged to have said “Bottom line — won every state by 100,000s of votes” and “We won every state.”

Ultimately, on Jan 6, 2021, Mr Pence certified the election, finalising Mr Trump’s, and his own, defeat.

According to Mr Pence’s notes, during a private meeting on Jan 5, 2021, Mr Trump “grew frustrated” at him, and said he would have to publicly criticise his number two.

Concerned for Mr Pence’s safety, his chief of staff, Marc Short, then alerted the head of the vice president’s Secret Service detail.

The following day, as they attacked the Capitol, some of Mr Trump’s supporters chanted “Hang Mike Pence,” and Mr Pence and his family were rushed to safety.

 

[Arkay]

"Smith admits that politicians are protected in making false statements but then says Trump can be prosecuted because he failed to yield to the truth," Turley said. "While Smith could still flip witnesses or offer new evidence, this was a 'speaking indictment' that said little."

Turning Point USA Founder Charlie Kirk went even further to argue that it's not just the right to speech that Trump is guaranteed by the First Amendment, but also "a right to petition the government for redress of grievances."

Will Trump's First Amendment right implode Jack Smith Jan. 6 case?

Legal experts are divided over whether the new indictment infringes on former President Donald Trump's right to free speech.

www.newsweek.com

It is an undeniable fact that Trump is not being indicted for anything he has SAID. He has been indicted for the concrete steps he took, actions which broke the law. Trump is an American citizen and is beholden to obey the law.

One would think this would be especially impactful on a man who held the title of U.S. President.

NONE of the four charges reference a single syllable of what Trump said in any speech.

There are instances in which his speech was criminal, such as threatening Brad Raffensperger in Georgia that he and his lawyer were in trouble if they didn’t find 11,000+ votes for him, but he is being indicted for taking the final national vote count and throwing it in the garbage so he could stay on as president.

IMO (and the facts according to evidence).

 

[AZLocal]

We should all consider checking our sources and weighing the voices of those with knowledge and experience in the law against talking heads that generate money via spreading mis- and disinformation. We are in real trouble as a country if we lose the ability to think critically.

 

[RANCH]

"Sadly, the president was surrounded by a group of crackpot lawyers that kept telling him what his itching ears wanted to hear," Pence said. "And while I made my case to him, with what I understood my oath of the Constitution to require, the president ultimately continued to demand that I choose him over the Constitution."

So Mike Pence is saying that President Trump believed in what his lawyers told him.

That helps Trumps case by showing he really believed that the election was stolen because he listened to his legal counsel.

JMO.

Pence says 'crackpot lawyers' told Trump what he wanted to hear

 

[SouthAussie]

It is an undeniable fact that Trump is not being indicted for anything he has SAID. He has been indicted for the concrete steps he took, actions which broke the law. Trump is an American citizen and is beholden to obey the law.

One would think this would be especially impactful on a man who held the title of U.S. President.

NONE of the four charges reference a single syllable of what Trump said in any speech.

There are instances in which his speech was criminal, such as threatening Brad Raffensperger in Georgia that he and his lawyer were in trouble if they didn’t find 11,000+ votes for him, but he is being indicted for taking the final national vote count and throwing it in the garbage so he could stay on as president.

IMO (and the facts according to evidence).

I think, too, that the indictment makes it very clear that DT KNEW that he lost the election.
His top advisors, people he depended on to advise him correctly, told him.

His Vice President
Senior leaders from the Justice Dept that he had appointed
The Director of National Intelligence - DT 's principal advisor on intelligence matters
The Dept of Homeland Security's Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency
Senior White House attorneys that he had hired to provide him with candid advice
Senior 2020 campaign advisors
State legislators and officials who had voted for him and wanted him to be re-elected
State and Federal Courts

https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2023/08/trump-indictment.pdf