DC - Savvas Savopoulos, family & Veralicia Figueroa murdered; Daron Wint Arrested #20

[SeesSeas]

Originally Posted by James Bond
I don't think so. LE claims that it has not been found. The bag in the text had a zipper. Zippers survive fires

You are correct, METAL zippers survive fires. Suppose it was a nylon or plastic zipper. The most that would survive is a tiny plastic blob.

How do you know "The bag in the text had a zipper." The text photo sent by W-1 to W-2?

What is the source indicating the bag had a zipper? I don't recall reading from LE or MSM about the bag having a zipper.

PH page 31:
Q And that text is a picture of two bundles of what appear to be stacks of one-hundred-dollar bills; is that right?
A That's correct.
Q And they are inside of a bag that is lined with red cloth or something like that, right?
A Yeah

 

[rkf]

Or..... JW didn't lie. LE could have gotten confused with the details of who, what, when, and where.

Are you saying it's more likely that LE can't keep track of JW's true stories and is convoluting them into something that doesn't make sense, rather than JW made two contradictory statements, only one of which could be true? Do you think LE has failed to accurately record JW's statements (which were recorded/videotaped and/or signed by the witness)? I've been trying to figure out a way to make all of JW's statements true, and have only been able to do that with some pretty "out there" speculation. Could you share how you think these statements can be worked into a plausible narrative? It's tough, because there's so much we don't know. I think it's a pretty bold assertion that the people in charge of this case can't/haven't grasped the basic facts. I feel like you must have a good reason to think that. TIA.

 

[TexMex]

Originally Posted by James Bond
I don't think so. LE claims that it has not been found. The bag in the text had a zipper. Zippers survive fires



How do you know "The bag in the text had a zipper." The text photo sent by W-1 to W-2?

What is the source indicating the bag had a zipper? I don't recall reading from LE or MSM about the bag having a zipper.

PH page 31:
Q And that text is a picture of two bundles of what appear to be stacks of one-hundred-dollar bills; is that right?
A That's correct.
Q And they are inside of a bag that is lined with red cloth or something like that, right?
A Yeah

We just don't have much info on the bag. IMO whatever the bag looked like it was put inside the manila envelope.

Yes Bently. It's become a tradition. At a family reunion all of the big bowls in the house were already taken so I improvised.

 

[rkf]

Yes, agree... not good to commingle personal receipts with business receipts, so using a separate bag makes sense.

The BMW SW return lists two receipts:
Arby’s receipt from front pass. seat
Jimmy John’s receipt from front pass. floor

For all of the errands JW did for SS, it would make sense to have a separate container (bag, envelope, folder) for the SS receipts instead of the SS receipts being scattered on the seat or the floor of the BMW like the food receipts.

The BMW SW return did not list any other receipts in the BMW except for Arby's and Jimmy John's. So, perhaps JW was organized to keep the SS receipts separate (like in a bag).

Interesting. Not even a receipt from the Lowe's where he shopped for SS that day. If he put the red bag in the Mosler (which I don't think was ever said), he wouldn't have been able to put the receipt in it. I'd love to see what he bought that day - assuming it was for the dojo and he left the receipt there with his purchases. I don't know that JW would really need a special bag for SS' receipts, as he would probably turn in receipts with purchases as they occurred (on a daily basis).

 

[kammiemc]

But it is not. The bag was not in JW's possession and was not found in the search of his Porsche. Wallace stated he placed the money inside a manila envelope that was in his car. He did not say he removed the money from the red bag to do so. He may have placed the money that was still in the red-lined bag into the envelope. It could have been a small clutch-type red lined bag and a large (8" x 10" envelope.

I thought in the PH, Owens said that JW took the money from His bag and put it into an envelope (and then they had to refer to the affidavit for Owens to recall that JW said that envelope was from his car. I can check when I get to my computer but I am pretty sure.

ETA: I checked the PH it is correct that JW moved the money from the bag to the envelope. Can't copy on my phone but obviously the doc is at the beginning of this thread. So, at least according to JW, he did not leave the bag in the Mosler. But, honestly, any of the details that are based strictly on JW's account I don't assume are true because of the changing stories--including that the instructions were to drop off the money in the Mosler.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SeesSeas]

Interesting. Not even a receipt from the Lowe's where he shopped for SS that day. If he put the red bag in the Mosler (which I don't think was ever said), he wouldn't have been able to put the receipt in it. I'd love to see what he bought that day - assuming it was for the dojo and he left the receipt there with his purchases. I don't know that JW would really need a special bag for SS' receipts, as he would probably turn in receipts with purchases as they occurred (on a daily basis).

See my post #869 explaining the possibility of two rotating bags for receipts:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...aron-Wint-Arrested-20&p=11990441#post11990441

Yes, JW "would really need a special bag for SS' receipts". Most CEO's and accountants prefer to have receipts compiled and submitted monthly. Perhaps weekly submission, but definitely not "on a daily basis".

 

[jggordo]

Found this article from NT. It is a summary of events and an archive of articles related. It is considered a blog but has been approved by WS mods several threads back. It also has a cache of JW's FB and Tweets before being taken down. Pics of JW with each of Mr S's cars, etc.

I am looking for the pic of JW's Tweet to the GF showing the redlined bag. IIRC the pic shows that the length and the width of the bag was not much bigger than the money itself. Reminded me more of a "man purse" that more and more men are carrying these days. To hold cell, wallet, keys and such. Nicer ones are lined to prevent scratching glass lenses and cell covers and such.

JMO's

http://www.nate-thayer.com/race-car...ect-in-washington-savopoulos-murder-whodunit/

 

[TexMex]

Found this article from NT. It is a summary of events and an archive of articles related. It is considered a blog but has been approved by WS mods several threads back. It also has a cache of JW's FB and Tweets before being taken down. Pics of JW with each of Mr S's cars, etc.

I am looking for the pic of JW's Tweet to the GF showing the redlined bag. IIRC the pic shows that the length and the width of the bag was not much bigger than the money itself. Reminded me more of a "man purse" that more and more men are carrying these days. To hold cell, wallet, keys and such. Nicer ones are lined to prevent scratching glass lenses and cell covers and such.

JMO's

http://www.nate-thayer.com/race-car...ect-in-washington-savopoulos-murder-whodunit/

I don't recall ever seeing the pic of bag/money that was texted...did you find it?

 

[SeesSeas]

Are you saying it's more likely that LE can't keep track of JW's true stories and is convoluting them into something that doesn't make sense, rather than JW made two contradictory statements, only one of which could be true? Do you think LE has failed to accurately record JW's statements (which were recorded/videotaped and/or signed by the witness)? I've been trying to figure out a way to make all of JW's statements true, and have only been able to do that with some pretty "out there" speculation. Could you share how you think these statements can be worked into a plausible narrative? It's tough, because there's so much we don't know. I think it's a pretty bold assertion that the people in charge of this case can't/haven't grasped the basic facts. I feel like you must have a good reason to think that. TIA.

LE sometimes can’t even keep track of their own knowledge and statements.
You’re right, “there’s so much we don’t know”.
But here is an example of testimony during the Preliminary Hearing where, per the transcript, Owen’s responses are confusing regarding where the manila envelope originated from.
PH transcript pages 33 and 34:
Defense Attorney Ago questioning.
Detective Owens answering.
Q Um, what W-1 then told the police in terms of a different version of events was that he placed the money from the bag in the manila envelope -- into a manila envelope that he had in his car, correct?
A That was in -- repeat the question.
Q Yes. W-1 had the money in a bag with red lining, and moved that money into a manila envelope and that manila envelope was something that he had taken from his own car?
A That was my recollection, manila envelope was in the red sports car.
Q Was in the red sports car?
A Right.
Q Okay.Um, detective, do you still have Government's one up there?
A Yeah.
Q Could you look at paragraph 15 please at the bottom of page four? First sentence of that paragraph.
A Yes, first sentence.
Q Okay, do you see where at the end of that sentence it says that, um, that W-1 essentially placed the money in a red bag -- I'm sorry, strike that.W-1, when it arrived at Mr. Savopoulos's garage, it placed the money inside a manila envelope that was in its car.
A Yes, you're correct.
Q Okay. So the envelope was something that W-1 had in his own car, correct?
A Yes.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/272950986/D-Wint-Savopoulos-Preliminary-Hearing

 

[jggordo]

I don't recall ever seeing the pic of bag/money that was texted...did you find it?

I did see the tweet back in the very early events in this case. I believe it was with a link here on WS but not sure. I will go back to Thread one and scan forward as I get time. I do remember the "bag" was not a backpack and had a red silk like lining, much like a black leather lined clutch purse for a guy.

JMO's

 

[TexMex]

I did see the tweet back in the very early events in this case. I believe it was with a link here on WS but not sure. I will go back to Thread one and scan forward as I get time. I do remember the "bag" was not a backpack and had a red silk like lining, much like a black leather lined clutch purse for a guy.

JMO's

Great! Thanks for looking.

 

[kammiemc]

Are you saying it's more likely that LE can't keep track of JW's true stories and is convoluting them into something that doesn't make sense, rather than JW made two contradictory statements, only one of which could be true? Do you think LE has failed to accurately record JW's statements (which were recorded/videotaped and/or signed by the witness)? I've been trying to figure out a way to make all of JW's statements true, and have only been able to do that with some pretty "out there" speculation. Could you share how you think these statements can be worked into a plausible narrative? It's tough, because there's so much we don't know. I think it's a pretty bold assertion that the people in charge of this case can't/haven't grasped the basic facts. I feel like you must have a good reason to think that. TIA.

I think it would be a leap of faith to assume that the details in JW's second account of dropping off the money are more accurate than his first. (In fact, to say that the red bag was dropped in the Mosler, inside or outside of the envelope, is to say that JW's second account is not true.) The part of the story that only JW can attest to and can never be corroborated by anyone alive except perhaps DW is how JW was instructed to drop off the money and how he followed through. Even if cell phone records say he was in the vicinity we don't know if he knocked on the door and left it in the porch or placed it in the Mosler (in his bag or in an envelope or both). IMO. Only he knows.

 

[kammiemc]

Lately I have been seeing more and more posts referring to the bag as a bank bag. Neither MSM or legal has EVER referred to it as a bank bag.

This word is getting legs, so I wanted to see if I'm incorrect and anybody had a correction for me.

ETA I think of a "bank bag" is a bag that is from the bank itself .. So perhaps I can see the confusion it is creating because some people are using it is the name of a *bag * that could be a backpack or a book pack that he kept his receipts in.

I think some are speculating that he always had handy a small bag for receipts (like the Lowes receipts, for example) so that he wouldn't have to carry them in his wallet with his personal receipts. I think for lack a better term we've been referring to it as money bag or bank bag but could just as easily be called a receipts bag. (The reason some are thinking it was a little bag is because only a little bag could fit into a normal sized manila envelope.) The thing is...neither JW nor anyone else conveyed the details to be that he left his red bag in an envelope in the Mosler.

 

[SeesSeas]

Are you saying it's more likely that LE can't keep track of JW's true stories and is convoluting them into something that doesn't make sense, rather than JW made two contradictory statements, only one of which could be true? Do you think LE has failed to accurately record JW's statements (which were recorded/videotaped and/or signed by the witness)? I've been trying to figure out a way to make all of JW's statements true, and have only been able to do that with some pretty "out there" speculation. Could you share how you think these statements can be worked into a plausible narrative? It's tough, because there's so much we don't know. I think it's a pretty bold assertion that the people in charge of this case can't/haven't grasped the basic facts. I feel like you must have a good reason to think that. TIA.

Not too bold of an assertion. I think JayMac said it best last week on post #662:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...aron-Wint-Arrested-20&p=11977100#post11977100
JayMac

Registered User

Join DateJul 2015LocationWashington, DCPosts31​

Originally Posted by SeesSeas
Perhaps he did tell that to detectives, but the detectives got very confused.


This does happen. Until we see the video(s) it isn't possible for us to know whether or not the police fairly characterized JW's answers.

People speak imprecisely in conversation as a rule and these interviews are usually conversational. Further everyone describes events in their own way - sketchy with what they personally think are the most important details first, in excruciatingly minute detail, disjointed skipping back and forth between details, out of chron order filling in details as remembered, and on and on.

Everyone is different. Suggesting how one would or should speak to police either on the street or in a police station is almost a fruitless exercise. There is no one way. This is why you have to go over events with witnesses or defendants multiple times - so people can recollect more details the more they are asked to recall and repeat the events or so people can correct initial misrecollections.

​

 

[kammiemc]

I did see the tweet back in the very early events in this case. I believe it was with a link here on WS but not sure. I will go back to Thread one and scan forward as I get time. I do remember the "bag" was not a backpack and had a red silk like lining, much like a black leather lined clutch purse for a guy.

JMO's

We, ourselves, posted a bunch of potential kinds of little red bags very early on. Is it possible that you might be recalling one of those shots?

 

[TexMex]

Not too bold of an assertion. I think JayMac said it best last week on post #662:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...aron-Wint-Arrested-20&p=11977100#post11977100
JayMac

Registered User

Join DateJul 2015LocationWashington, DCPosts31​

Originally Posted by SeesSeas
Perhaps he did tell that to detectives, but the detectives got very confused.


This does happen. Until we see the video(s) it isn't possible for us to know whether or not the police fairly characterized JW's answers.

People speak imprecisely in conversation as a rule and these interviews are usually conversational. Further everyone describes events in their own way - sketchy with what they personally think are the most important details first, in excruciatingly minute detail, disjointed skipping back and forth between details, out of chron order filling in details as remembered, and on and on.

Everyone is different. Suggesting how one would or should speak to police either on the street or in a police station is almost a fruitless exercise. There is no one way. This is why you have to go over events with witnesses or defendants multiple times - so people can recollect more details the more they are asked to recall and repeat the events or so people can correct initial misrecollections.

​

Exactly. It'll be interesting to finally get to see/hear the recorded interview

 

[jggordo]

We, ourselves, posted a bunch of potential kinds of little red bags very early on. Is it possible that you might be recalling one of those shots?

No kammiemc it was the actual tweet that he sent to his gf. Was of two stacks of $100 bills in the red lined bag along with his comment to her. I'm still looking. I know it was taken down pretty quickly so it's a matter of finding the cached pic.

IIRC the timing was before DW was even arrested. That tweet was one of the main sources showing LE that JW was not being truthful.

JMO's

 

[kammiemc]

Are we sure that the red 'bag' is even still missing?

The only thing I have read for sure is that there was no red-lined bag found in JW's car per Owens. But good point. Maybe this new SW turned up something or maybe JW offered it up. In the PH, Owens was asked if detectives asked JW about the bag and he said something pretty noncommittal, like not that I can remember. (Not verbatim, I'm not quoting. Just in the spirit of...)

 

[kammiemc]

Assuming for a moment that JW's second account, which was stated in the affidavit and further clarified in the PH is true and that money was moved from the bag into the envelope, which was left on the seat of the Mosler (no bag was left in the Mosler at all) what are some ideas of where that red bag could have gone?
A drop off at home? Left it at the dojo by mistake? Gym locker?

I tend to think JW dropped the money off in the bag and for some reason didn't want to share that info. But, giving him the benefit of the doubt that he was being truthful and accurate (and the detectives weren't misinterpreting) and JW did indeed move that money into an envelope, anyone have a theory as to why that bag wouldn't have remained in his car? Especially if it was an important item for his job?

 

[katydid23]

Interesting. Not even a receipt from the Lowe's where he shopped for SS that day. If he put the red bag in the Mosler (which I don't think was ever said), he wouldn't have been able to put the receipt in it. I'd love to see what he bought that day - assuming it was for the dojo and he left the receipt there with his purchases. I don't know that JW would really need a special bag for SS' receipts, as he would probably turn in receipts with purchases as they occurred (on a daily basis).

I think he would have needed a special bag/envelope/type of thing. You can't always turn over your receipts and or change from purchases on the same day. Especially if the boss is a busy person and there are a few 'locations' involved. I am sure there were many times that JW stopped for an errand on his way home or after he had already dropped his boss off somewhere. Often you have a few errands in one day and you need to keep track of all of the money exchanges, charges, receipts, paperwork to turn in. How can one do so without having a pre-set bag or envelope for them?