DC - Savvas Savopoulos, family & Veralicia Figueroa murdered; Daron Wint Arrested #20

[kammiemc]

I think he would have needed a special bag/envelope/type of thing. You can't always turn over your receipts and or change from purchases on the same day. Especially if the boss is a busy person and there are a few 'locations' involved. I am sure there were many times that JW stopped for an errand on his way home or after he had already dropped his boss off somewhere. Often you have a few errands in one day and you need to keep track of all of the money exchanges, charges, receipts, paperwork to turn in. How can one do so without having a pre-set bag or envelope for them?

It's true. I have always used a manila envelope to separate expenses by weeks or projects. You need some form of org.

 

[katydid23]

It's true. I have always used a manila envelope to separate expenses by weeks or projects. You need some form of org.

True. That's why I don't find it odd that he might have had a manilla envelope in his car as well. I had a small package of them in my car for leaving things for my boss. I even added the receipt for them to my pile of receipts for reimbursement. :wink:

 

[rkf]

So, he had that bank bag on hand in his car on his trip to pick up cash, removed all SS's receipts and replaced them with the cash, took pic of the cash, removed the cash to put into the manila envelope, replaced receipts in his bank bag to keep them separate from his fast food receipts in the car (no SS receipts in the car)....and...where'd his bank bag go? He would have Lowes receipts to add to it

ETA: Would he keep SS's Mosler renewal letter in his backpack along with his personal checkbook/passport if was he was so fastidious as to carry a bank bag to keep biz/personal paperwork separate? I dunno. IMO.


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Good point about the Mosler registration renewal notice. I'd think that would be with the rest of SS' receipts/papers, not JW's.

 

[rkf]

JW could have had two bags for receipts and he rotated using them. For example, after accumulating receipts for a few days or a week, the routine could have been to hand a bag of receipts to SS so that JW could get reimbursement for those receipts in that bag. JW could have, from the beginning of his job, been given a cash advance for expenses of a certain amount ($100, $200, ?) and then once he expended near that amount, he submitted a bag of receipts to get reimbursed by SS. So, perhaps he used more than one bag and the other bag was already turned in with receipts for reimbursement. And then any new receipts he would keep in his wallet until he had the bag back to put those business receipts in.
When he got the $40,000 he used the bag he had, knowing that when SS retrieved the $ from the Mosler, SS would know that JW was the one who delivered the $ because it was in the bag SS knew that JW used.

Putting SS receipts in his wallet even temporarily defeats the purpose of keeping them separate in a bag at any time. I think this is all gross speculation. We have no idea what type of red bag the accountant put the money in. All we know is it was JW's and it wasn't found in execution of any of the SWs that have been released. I'm not sure I believe LE hasn't asked JW about it. In fact, I'd be surprised if they don't have it now. If they haven't recovered it and JW hasn't given them an explanation of what happened to it, that is very strange.

 

[rkf]

Business RECEIPTS; not business paperwork. JW wouldn't put the Mosler renewal letter in a bag with receipts that he wanted to be reimbursed for if there was not any $ expended by JW regarding the Mosler renewal. The bag would be only for receipts of which cash was expended that JW wanted to be reimbursed.

I would be very surprised if JW was supposed to pay out money for reimbursement later. I imagine SS either gave him money as needed or JW had a credit card/prepaid card for expenditures.

 

[rkf]

Your last sentence makes a lot of sense. I just went back to the transcripts and several cars were searched and items recovered from them as well. That was an interesting re read as it did not register with me at first. JW's car was not the only car to be searched and items recovered though it's not indicated in the SW. Hmmmmm


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Lines 16-21

Cars we know about:
JW's BMW
Chevy Cruze
Amerit Truck
Savopoulos' Land Rover, Range Rover, Mosler, Audi, possibly Bentley

That makes 7 cars and a truck. Might be others that haven't been released.

 

[rkf]

But it is not. The bag was not in JW's possession and was not found in the search of his BMW. Wallace stated he placed the money inside a manila envelope that was in his car. He did not say he removed the money from the red bag to do so. He may have placed the money that was still in the red-lined bag into the envelope. It could have been a small clutch-type red lined bag and a large (8" x 10" envelope.

I don't think we know for sure that it was not in JW's possession, although unless it was the red lined Herschel backpack, it wasn't recovered in the SW of JW's car. Maybe it was found in another car or at the dojo. I'm not convinced LE checked the recovered items from the BMW before issuing the SW for the Chevy Cruze and Amerit truck. The timing was very close, and the detectives could have been working off a master list of items for which they were searching. I'm not going with the small clutch-type bag until I hear that from LE or another reliable source. I think it's unlikely JW would carry a bag like that and don't see him using a bank bag to carry money and receipts around - would make the contents too obvious. It doesn't even make sense why JW would put the money in the red bag and the red bag in the manila envelope - it's redundant. If JW was expecting a package until he accompanied the accountant to the bank, I'd expect him to take a larger bag with him to accommodate a greater array of packages than 4 bundles of money. JMO

 

[rkf]

See my post #869 explaining the possibility of two rotating bags for receipts:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...aron-Wint-Arrested-20&p=11990441#post11990441

Yes, JW "would really need a special bag for SS' receipts". Most CEO's and accountants prefer to have receipts compiled and submitted monthly. Perhaps weekly submission, but definitely not "on a daily basis".

I read your post #869. I think it's a leap to think JW had a special bag for SS, even more so to have 2. JW was not an executive assistant, but more of an errand-runner. I don't believe for a second SS would have JW hold on to and turn in receipts monthly, nor pay for anything out of his own pocket to be later reimbursed. It sounds like JW was given chores/errands as they came up, was most likely given enough money to accomplish these tasks and returned with the items, any change and the receipts. Especially if he was driving SS, it would make sense to give SS whatever he had asked for when he saw him along with the receipt (or drop it off at an assigned place like the dojo for SS or someone assigned by SS to sign off on receiving it.) JMO

 

[rkf]

Found this article from NT. It is a summary of events and an archive of articles related. It is considered a blog but has been approved by WS mods several threads back. It also has a cache of JW's FB and Tweets before being taken down. Pics of JW with each of Mr S's cars, etc.

I am looking for the pic of JW's Tweet to the GF showing the redlined bag. IIRC the pic shows that the length and the width of the bag was not much bigger than the money itself. Reminded me more of a "man purse" that more and more men are carrying these days. To hold cell, wallet, keys and such. Nicer ones are lined to prevent scratching glass lenses and cell covers and such.

JMO's

http://www.nate-thayer.com/race-car...ect-in-washington-savopoulos-murder-whodunit/

I have never seen the picture that JW texted to his GF. Do you remember where you saw that?

 

[rkf]

LE sometimes can’t even keep track of their own knowledge and statements.
You’re right, “there’s so much we don’t know”.
But here is an example of testimony during the Preliminary Hearing where, per the transcript, Owen’s responses are confusing regarding where the manila envelope originated from.
PH transcript pages 33 and 34:
Defense Attorney Ago questioning.
Detective Owens answering.
Q Um, what W-1 then told the police in terms of a different version of events was that he placed the money from the bag in the manila envelope -- into a manila envelope that he had in his car, correct?
A That was in -- repeat the question.
Q Yes. W-1 had the money in a bag with red lining, and moved that money into a manila envelope and that manila envelope was something that he had taken from his own car?
A That was my recollection, manila envelope was in the red sports car.
Q Was in the red sports car?
A Right.
Q Okay.Um, detective, do you still have Government's one up there?
A Yeah.
Q Could you look at paragraph 15 please at the bottom of page four? First sentence of that paragraph.
A Yes, first sentence.
Q Okay, do you see where at the end of that sentence it says that, um, that W-1 essentially placed the money in a red bag -- I'm sorry, strike that.W-1, when it arrived at Mr. Savopoulos's garage, it placed the money inside a manila envelope that was in its car.
A Yes, you're correct.
Q Okay. So the envelope was something that W-1 had in his own car, correct?
A Yes.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/272950986/D-Wint-Savopoulos-Preliminary-Hearing

Yes, I have read that transcript numerous times. I don't think Owen's testimony is a good indication of what LE knows. I would have liked to hear the detectives who interviewed JW tell us what he said, but that was not the point of the PH and not in the prosecution's best interest.

 

[rkf]

I think it would be a leap of faith to assume that the details in JW's second account of dropping off the money are more accurate than his first. (In fact, to say that the red bag was dropped in the Mosler, inside or outside of the envelope, is to say that JW's second account is not true.) The part of the story that only JW can attest to and can never be corroborated by anyone alive except perhaps DW is how JW was instructed to drop off the money and how he followed through. Even if cell phone records say he was in the vicinity we don't know if he knocked on the door and left it in the porch or placed it in the Mosler (in his bag or in an envelope or both). IMO. Only he knows.

I'm certainly not betting any money on either of those stories being true. But unless one of my crazy theories is true (very unlikely and even then...) I don't see how both stories can be true.

 

[rkf]

Not too bold of an assertion. I think JayMac said it best last week on post #662:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...aron-Wint-Arrested-20&p=11977100#post11977100
JayMac

Registered User

Join DateJul 2015LocationWashington, DCPosts31​

Originally Posted by SeesSeas
Perhaps he did tell that to detectives, but the detectives got very confused.


This does happen. Until we see the video(s) it isn't possible for us to know whether or not the police fairly characterized JW's answers.

People speak imprecisely in conversation as a rule and these interviews are usually conversational. Further everyone describes events in their own way - sketchy with what they personally think are the most important details first, in excruciatingly minute detail, disjointed skipping back and forth between details, out of chron order filling in details as remembered, and on and on.

Everyone is different. Suggesting how one would or should speak to police either on the street or in a police station is almost a fruitless exercise. There is no one way. This is why you have to go over events with witnesses or defendants multiple times - so people can recollect more details the more they are asked to recall and repeat the events or so people can correct initial misrecollections.

​

The affidavits were very specific and consistent. I can only see saying LE is "confused" by JW's statements, rather than JW lied in his interview, as a euphemistic way of saying either LE is stupid or deliberately making misleading statements in their sworn affidavits. Perhaps this assumption is based on a general distrust of LE. However, I don't see any reason to believe LE is incompetent or crooked in this case. The affidavits were originally written for warrants and were sealed, so not created for the purpose of maligning JW to the public. It was not necessary to say JW lied in order to get these warrants. It would be remiss for LE to leave out JW's changing stories, as at the time (or maybe even now) LE didn't know which, if either, of these stories was true, since there was no way to confirm many of the details. I don't see how it benefits LE to say JW lied if he didn't. If he ends up being a prosecution witness, his testimony is less "reliable".

 

[rkf]

I think he would have needed a special bag/envelope/type of thing. You can't always turn over your receipts and or change from purchases on the same day. Especially if the boss is a busy person and there are a few 'locations' involved. I am sure there were many times that JW stopped for an errand on his way home or after he had already dropped his boss off somewhere. Often you have a few errands in one day and you need to keep track of all of the money exchanges, charges, receipts, paperwork to turn in. How can one do so without having a pre-set bag or envelope for them?

I don't get the idea that JW was so busy with errands that it would be hard to keep track of all of them. It would be sufficient to temporarily keep a receipt in a particular backpack pocket. If JW carried a special bag for when he was working for SS, that could work, too. I don't see that bag being a bank-type/sized bag, as it would only be handy for receipts/cash, not retrieving a "package" or whatever items he purchased on occasion for SS. I don't know any better than anyone else - I just don't see JW carrying anything small when he could carry something larger. MOO

 

[rkf]

True. That's why I don't find it odd that he might have had a manilla envelope in his car as well. I had a small package of them in my car for leaving things for my boss. I even added the receipt for them to my pile of receipts for reimbursement. :wink:

Your boss expected you to pay out money to run errands/make purchases for him/her and then reimbursed you? I think that is pretty unreasonable, especially since a young person is not generally going to have a lot of extra money.

 

[SeesSeas]

To understand how JW worked with and was likely mentored by SS, it helps to know the finance aspect of business operations.

To understand how LE might have interviewed JW, it is beneficial to have had some experience or knowledge of police interview techniques.

 

[1&2&3]

OT - In response to RKF ^^^^^, I once worked for a company where travel was four days a week, overnight stays, and many flights a month. Once hired, I was told to use my charge cards and expense it out at the end of the month, with reimbursement by the 10th of the next month.

After getting my breath back from such an unusual request, I told them my charge cards were for emergency use, not company business. We had a few exchanges, one being the threat of losing the job. At that point they could have their lousy job! Eventually they gave me a company credit card - which had been the norm at other companies in this type of position. Found out later through peers, this was the way the company treated new hires. Most people on the road used their own credit cards after being presented the same scenario on the first day. It is amazing what people or companies will try to get by with! All for the almighty dollar!

 

[katydid23]

Your boss expected you to pay out money to run errands/make purchases for him/her and then reimbursed you? I think that is pretty unreasonable, especially since a young person is not generally going to have a lot of extra money.

No. She would give me roughly the amount of cash I would need. Sometimes she would give me a check made out to the correct amount. But things do not always come out exact. So if I paid the extra then I needed a receipt to get reimbursed. But even when she gave me 200 bucks for the errands, I needed the receipts to prove I didn't keep it for myself. So 'reimbursement' was used by me in an incorrect way.

But my point was the same. I needed envelopes to leave for her to validate what errands I had completed. And sometimes I gave her cash back, and other times I needed a small reimbursement.

 

[Skigirl]

I don't get the idea that JW was so busy with errands that it would be hard to keep track of all of them. It would be sufficient to temporarily keep a receipt in a particular backpack pocket. If JW carried a special bag for when he was working for SS, that could work, too. I don't see that bag being a bank-type/sized bag, as it would only be handy for receipts/cash, not retrieving a "package" or whatever items he purchased on occasion for SS. I don't know any better than anyone else - I just don't see JW carrying anything small when he could carry something larger. MOO

I agree. I am not a particularly organized person. I travel for work and incur lots of other business expenses for supplies, and parking and the like. I stuff all the receipts in my wallet with everything else, except for the electronic receipts, which are sitting around in my personal email account. It's really not that hard to separate them from my personal receipts and fill out my expense report at the end of the month, even with my haphazard non-system. Maybe he did have a bag for receipts, but I don't think it's certain that he did.

 

[kammiemc]

I agree. I am not a particularly organized person. I travel for work and incur lots of other business expenses for supplies, and parking and the like. I stuff all the receipts in my wallet with everything else, except for the electronic receipts, which are sitting around in my personal email account. It's really not that hard to separate them from my personal receipts and fill out my expense report at the end of the month, even with my haphazard non-system. Maybe he did have a bag for receipts, but I don't think it's certain that he did.

And it would be a leap to assume he had a little red bag for that purpose.

 

[kammiemc]

I would be very surprised if JW was supposed to pay out money for reimbursement later. I imagine SS either gave him money as needed or JW had a credit card/prepaid card for expenditures.

You'd be surprised! It could go either way.