Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

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I have seen dead people. Even stood beside them when they passed. Never had ANY experience with decomp tho. I do remember... a medical examiner telling me in nursing school, as I begged to watch just one more autopsy. (I was young and wanted to learn it ALL!) He made me leave and told me that if in 24 hours I felt the same way I could return for the next autopsy of a decomposed body but I would not get to see the one he planned to do that day.
He said..."It is a smell you can never undo in your memory no matter what. Be very careful. Think long and hard about it before you go there because if you go that route you can never take it back. It is not a two way street."
Glad I heeded that warning now.
I understand your questions spqr or I respect them.
I have smelled some gawd awful smells in my day and I get it!
Sorry that other people (NOT pointing any fingers) don't.
Thank You for doing what you do! The world is a better place because of folks like you!
 
Yes, I believe it was the garbage bag and its contents that caused the odor because there was a garbage bag there. I do not believe there was a decomposing human body in that trunk due to lack of evidence.
I also do not believe Tl power washed his garbage before Kc took it and put it in her trunk. It is likely Dr Lee took close up photos of the items in the trash. I have yet to see in my life time a full kitchen garbage bag without food in it. Furthermore there were maggots in the garbage indicating to me that there was food in the garbage. I believe Ga described it as the sound of hamburger frying in a pan.

So in closing, I find it hard to believe that a fatty like substance on a napkin and traces of butric acid caused the odor. Furthermore, I do not assume there was a decomposing body in the trunk to cause the odor due to lack of evidence. Moo

NTS, Thought I would refresh your memory. JBean addressed the issue of discussions on the odor a few months ago.


[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4839463&postcount=355"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Pontiac: The odor, sealing off & processing the car #2[/ame]
 
Don't hold your breath. No pun intended in the dead folks and decay thread.:crazy:

I wish she would answer questions that have been given her. I enjoy her posts, I just wish I could get a grasp on why she isn't seeing what's been laid out in front of her. Hugs NTS :)

I think I look at it more mathmatically than emotionally and that is why my interpretation of a document is different.

If I take a series of 5 possibilities, I give each one equal value until someone can give me a reason to give one of them more value. If the person giving that reason is biased imo then I take that into account as well.

So, if Dr Vass puts a disclaimer at the beginning of his document saying that it could come from a different source, then I give the different source equal value. If he goes on to say "could be" "possibly" " consistent with" "IF", instead of "is" then I take that into account too. Furthermore if Dr Vass writes an email to the Csi and says I have good news for you, I feel he is biased in nature. (there is no good news in this)

I also take in to account this horrible thing that has happened to Caylee. I want her to know that I am one that will seek the whole truth for her and for all of us no matter how unpopular that is. No matter what the outcome is. If Kc is proven to be (does not mean possible) guilty, then I will be satisfied with the outcome cept for death. I do not believe in the death penalty.

Hope this helps with understanding my take. BTW do you have any questions that I have not answered? thanks MOO
 
Quick question Friends,

Have we seen ANY reciprocal discovery regarding the defense's expert witnesses/scientists, etc. and their professional reports about testing the items in question?? Have any defense experts even taken items to a lab for scientific forensic examination?? Where is the "other side" that surely must exist?? The defense cannot call rebuttal witnesses to the stand to testify about the forensics unless their reports are released BEFORE trial. That's the law. Otherwise.....they cannot testify and their information cannot be presented at trial.

Cheers! :)
 
I have seen dead people. Even stood beside them when they passed. Never had ANY experience with decomp tho. I do remember... a medical examiner telling me in nursing school, as I begged to watch just one more autopsy. (I was young and wanted to learn it ALL!) He made me leave and told me that if in 24 hours I felt the same way I could return for the next autopsy of a decomposed body but I would not get to see the one he planned to do that day.
He said..."It is a smell you can never undo in your memory no matter what. Be very careful. Think long and hard about it before you go there because if you go that route you can never take it back. It is not a two way street."
Glad I heeded that warning now.
I understand your questions spqr or I respect them.
I have smelled some gawd awful smells in my day and I get it!
Sorry that other people (NOT pointing any fingers) don't.
Thank You for doing what you do! The world is a better place because of folks like you!

Your medical examiner was a very wise and compassionate man. He did you a great favour.
 
notthatsmart~
I'm trying to get on the same page with you. Are you saying you need tangible evidence that reason and logic explain on a scientific/mathmatical level? I think I get it kinda sorta.
 
NTS, Thought I would refresh your memory. JBean addressed the issue of discussions on the odor a few months ago.



Yeah I remember that. That was a great post by Jbean. And in her defense, perhaps it was appropriate for that thread. But this is the dead folks and decomp thread. So some may take things that someone said in a different thread under a different subject and try to apply them to something else. What is that???? lol

I welcome Jbean to come into this thread anytime she wants and post the same thing.

I admire and respect the mods.
 
Yeah I remember that. That was a great post by Jbean. And in her defense, perhaps it was appropriate for that thread. But this is the dead folks and decomp thread. So some may take things that someone said in a different thread under a different subject and try to apply them to something else. What is that???? lol

I welcome Jbean to come into this thread anytime she wants and post the same thing.

I admire and respect the mods.

IIRC, NTS, this is the same subject...odor, source of odor and the car....it applies...here as well as there...doesn't it?

Both are talking about if that odor can be anything else besides decomp. It isn't squirrels, pizza, bacon or pigs....it is the odor of human decomp.

HTH
 
Have I mentioned how much I appreciate the "Mythbusters" thread above? :)

Here are a few linked posts that I found helpful.

#9: There was no pizza in the trunk of Casey's car

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts *LIST ONLY* NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION


#36: There was no meat or any other food products in the trash bag

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Myth Busters and Facts *LIST ONLY* NO DISCUSSION NO DISCUSSION



Interesting enough that on page 24 item 13 says EMPTY bottle with brown liquid in it. lol
I wonder what the evidence garage definition of empty is. Moo

bbm

You did not reference the entire sentence nor do I think you realize that the examiner is using standard LE inventory language.
Referencing http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf

Page 24; item 13: Empty "Crystal Light" bottle 16 oz. with brown liquid proof purchase number #430093911

I have seen many evidence inventory sheets and it is COMMON to list WHAT TYPE OF PRODUCT IS REFERENCED. In this case....a "Crystal Light" bottle (as opposed to another brand/type of drink). Now---here's the really important part (because you brought it to our attention). The examiner is stating quite simply that there is no "Crystal Light" in the bottle. Thus, it is EMPTY OF CRYSTAL LIGHT. He completes the sentence by adding that there was brown liquid found in the bottle. This is completely commonplace language. Please ask questions before you try and zing a professional trained LE examiner. This was not a blunder, nor was it some oversight. It makes perfect sense. Thanks!

ETA: The reason I listed the Mythbusters links in the first place was to direct folks to the decomp discussion and the lack of any food product in the trunk. I did not go off topic, I am now just responding to NTS' off-topic remark about the evidence garage. I would hate for any readers to get the wrong idea about the diligent and professional work performed by OCSO LE. They deserve our respect, IMO. :blowkiss:
 
Oh Oh - If I answered No, No, and No, does that mean I do not pass GO? Can I add if you asked me if I wanted to - the three answers would be the same? I leave such things to the experts and their reports, thank you.


BBM.

My questions were directed at a particular post in that context, please read that post again.

Second, according to a couple of posters here, one you happen to support in your above post, have stated there are no experts of decomposition. So I hope you understand my confusion then?
 
I wonder if the jurors will be required to have this qualification outlined in the post. Will they have to be these super humans that only they can tell us what is human decomp smell or animal decomp smell. In this event, there would be no need for a device as Dr Vass used and it was a big waste of time and money. Fact: There is no super human that can claim he is the authority on the smell of human decomposition.

Secondly, I do have a lot of experience with food. The post is wrong. There are many foods that are raw and not processed. Processed foods also decompose and may decompose differently than unprocessed foods, but they still decompose and the smell is unbearable. The dead maggots themselves are decomposing and giving off odor. It does not have to be a pig. Dr Vass has the disclaimer at the beginning of his doc. This could come from a different event. There is nothing in his report that is for sure, because he put the disclaimer in. He never said it was adipocere. So some go off the assumptions, I don't. I can clearly see his safe writing to cover his rear.

Finally, there is something to be said for you are what you eat. The smell of decomp can vary based on what you eat. I know this to be a fact because I cooked a slab of bacon from a pig raised on our local trout farm and the whole house smelled of rotten fish. The government grades our beef here in america based on fat marbleing which is achieved through the feeding of grain. There are so many variations that no one could possibly be an authourity, hence the odor device.

To stop any sort of circular argument, I will agree to disagree with you respectfully. I think this has all been discussed over and over and I think the result of the discussion is a stalemate until we can get Dr Vass on the stand so he can explain himself. IMO and Moo

Just a quick comment....

I own a restaurant and am pretty familiar with virtually all food decomp smells ( including unprocessed).
And, especially from having lived in Third-world countries, I am also familiar with the smell of human decomposition. ( Unfortunately.) And animal , of course...something that quite a few in the US also know.

There is no comparison. NONE. I don't know why that is...but it is so.

And I DO hope that some of the jurors have had that experience. It would be valuable. I also hope they get to smell the car...

JMO.
 
LOL, this is a good time to point out that it takes more than one person to go around in circles in an argument.

Where this post lands is entirely random.
 
While I know we are all familiar with the body farm, I thought I would include a link to refresh us. This would be the decomp experts, that is their purpose.

http://web.utk.edu/~fac/

Then this site has a few **GRAPHIC PHOTOS** from the farm, please note the 15 DAY old corpse. Not much time at all for an adult....

http://www.damninteresting.com/the-remains-of-doctor-bass

there are a couple of links at the bottom of this article too.


ETA: And don't forget if you just google the body farm there are some pretty cool, but GRAPHIC videos.
 
Yeah I remember that. That was a great post by Jbean. And in her defense, perhaps it was appropriate for that thread. But this is the dead folks and decomp thread. So some may take things that someone said in a different thread under a different subject and try to apply them to something else. What is that???? lol

I welcome Jbean to come into this thread anytime she wants and post the same thing.

I admire and respect the mods.

As Jbean said in her post your opinion is noted. Jbean also notes that the evidence and such is in direct conflict with that opinion (paraphrased).

However lets look at the reality of the situation and the evidence. Multiple witnesses have given statements as to the smell. GA was in LE and a detective no less. His testimony is very clear and precise as to what the smell was. The evidence in this case is pretty clear as to what was in the trunk. It wasn't trash and certainly wasn't the trash found in the vehicle that caused that smell. We aren't talking about 40 or 50 lbs of rotten meat in the trunk. It was empty food containers in the trash if I remember right from the doc's.

The reality of it is this. Human decomp doesn't smell like trash especially the type of trash found in Casey's car. Also there was no dead animals found in the trunk. It was empty processed food containers. In no way will empty processed food containers smell like human decomp....period.

I understand you have never personally smelled human decomp and that's a good thing. However that lack of knowledge also makes it very hard for someone to understand the full reality of how bad human decomp really is. For people that have smelled it they completely understand the clear difference in human decomp and a bag of empty processed food containers. In fact I find the notion rather silly considering my experience with it. Not a slam on people that may think they could smell the same, but with experience in having smelled it. I find the notion personally humorous do to my own knowledge that it is so vastly different.

To illustrate: Every day people take their trash out. Some in various degrees of age/putridity and yes it smells bad but it's not something that is going to bring an experienced LEO the heaves/vomit or requires one to place vicks vapor rub under their nose just to get the stench from over powering you. Which by the way is hard to get out of facial hair.

Also I would like to point out that cadavers in a lab setting and those in the county morgue in storage also do not smell like real world decomposing humans or ones that have been found burned in a fire.

As a Criminal Justice major in college I worked with specimens in the cadaver lab during our forensics class. The same lab was used by the nursing and pre-med students as well. As a volunteer fire fighter I have been in homes for wel-fare checks in which the person died in the home and was there for some time as well as being near burned bodies. Empty processed food containers simply would not produce this odor....period.
 
Let's not forget that GA was asked by authorities if the smells were the same (stain vs trash) and he said no, the two smells were not the same.
 
bbm

You did not reference the entire sentence nor do I think you realize that the examiner is using standard LE inventory language.
Referencing http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf

Page 24; item 13: Empty "Crystal Light" bottle 16 oz. with brown liquid proof purchase number #430093911

I have seen many evidence inventory sheets and it is COMMON to list WHAT TYPE OF PRODUCT IS REFERENCED. In this case....a "Crystal Light" bottle (as opposed to another brand/type of drink). Now---here's the really important part (because you brought it to our attention). The examiner is stating quite simply that there is no "Crystal Light" in the bottle. Thus, it is EMPTY OF CRYSTAL LIGHT. He completes the sentence by adding that there was brown liquid found in the bottle. This is completely commonplace language. Please ask questions before you try and zing a professional trained LE examiner. This was not a blunder, nor was it some oversight. It makes perfect sense. Thanks!

ETA: The reason I listed the Mythbusters links in the first place was to direct folks to the decomp discussion and the lack of any food product in the trunk. I did not go off topic, I am now just responding to NTS' off-topic remark about the evidence garage. I would hate for any readers to get the wrong idea about the diligent and professional work performed by OCSO LE. They deserve our respect, IMO. :blowkiss:

Could you post some links to examples of this? I predicted this post. I knew it was coming. lol I am laughing out loud, this appears to be a political answer. but respectfully they do indeed deserve our respect. Equally so though, we need to respect that they are human and can and will make mistakes. Bless them so.

ps, I felt it was on topic because the brown liquid was likely some form of decomp, but I welcome the mods to remove my post about it. Moo

ps also, if we can establish that that is standard inventory language, then I can certainly accept that. I was using english. my bad.
 
Just looked upstairs, interesting research going on with the adipocere:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5221627#post5221627"]In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1 - Page 13 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]
 
I believe the Crystal Lite bottle was determined to have chewing tobacco in it. One of TL's roommates chewed tobacco. It was not decomposition fluid, so this would be OT. Thanks.
 
I don't think the experts will have a bit of trouble getting their message across to the jury. On a lighter note I do not have know that a restaurant uses roasted garlic for sure in their recipes when I'm walking by because I can smell it. I don't have to be an expert. Nothing else smells like garlic. Nothing else smells like decomp. jmo
 
As Jbean said in her post your opinion is noted. Jbean also notes that the evidence and such is in direct conflict with that opinion (paraphrased).

However lets look at the reality of the situation and the evidence. Multiple witnesses have given statements as to the smell. GA was in LE and a detective no less. His testimony is very clear and precise as to what the smell was. The evidence in this case is pretty clear as to what was in the trunk. It wasn't trash and certainly wasn't the trash found in the vehicle that caused that smell. We aren't talking about 40 or 50 lbs of rotten meat in the trunk. It was empty food containers in the trash if I remember right from the doc's.

The reality of it is this. Human decomp doesn't smell like trash especially the type of trash found in Casey's car. Also there was no dead animals found in the trunk. It was empty processed food containers. In no way will empty processed food containers smell like human decomp....period.

I understand you have never personally smelled human decomp and that's a good thing. However that lack of knowledge also makes it very hard for someone to understand the full reality of how bad human decomp really is. For people that have smelled it they completely understand the clear difference in human decomp and a bag of empty processed food containers. In fact I find the notion rather silly considering my experience with it. Not a slam on people that may think they could smell the same, but with experience in having smelled it. I find the notion personally humorous do to my own knowledge that it is so vastly different.

To illustrate: Every day people take their trash out. Some in various degrees of age/putridity and yes it smells bad but it's not something that is going to bring an experienced LEO the heaves/vomit or requires one to place vicks vapor rub under their nose just to get the stench from over powering you. Which by the way is hard to get out of facial hair.

Also I would like to point out that cadavers in a lab setting and those in the county morgue in storage also do not smell like real world decomposing humans or ones that have been found burned in a fire.

As a Criminal Justice major in college I worked with specimens in the cadaver lab during our forensics class. The same lab was used by the nursing and pre-med students as well. As a volunteer fire fighter I have been in homes for wel-fare checks in which the person died in the home and was there for some time as well as being near burned bodies. Empty processed food containers simply would not produce this odor....period.

Thank you for providing us with valuable information. I myself have seen plenty of dead people in my life time. I was in a horrible flash flood when I was 14 years old in which over 200 people died in the area i was located. Furthermore, my own spouse died in my arms, but I do not claim in any way shape or form that I know the smell of death even though I have probably smelled it a few times in my life. I think you need that close up experience like my son (a fireman) to really know what it is your talking about.

But really with such a compelling arguement or conclusion, can you see the defenses questions in this scenario after this has been established? Here are some examples and I would like your take on what you think will happen.

Mr S Birch, in light of the fact that we have established that the smell of death is so distinct, so unique, that you could never possibly forget it, and that is a smell that can not possibly be mistaken for anything else, When you smelled the smell of death, why did you not immediatley call 911? You went back to work.

Mr Anthony , I ask you the same. You yourself said you could never forget that smell. You even said the dead body in that trunk was not my grandaughter, you even said under your breath you said please don't let this be my daughter or granddaughter, I ask you sir, Why did you not immidiatley call 911? you went to work.

Mrs Anthony, you even said it smells like a dead body was in the car. Why did you not immediatley call 911? You went to work

Mr and Ms police officer, you know the smell, you have smelled it several times in your carreer. Why did you not immediatley seal off the car as a crime scene?

Mr Yuri, You are former homicide. You know that smell is so distinct and not mistaken. Why did you not seal off the car? Why did you not ask Kc about the smell?

How do you think this is going to play out in court if they are indeed able to establish that these people are not mistaken and are considered experts on the smell?

Thanks
 
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