Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

[LambChop]

That answer is easy....there was no body in the car. Once it was established that Ms. Anthony was lying about the whereabouts of her child the smell suddenly became very significant. Finding the child was first priority obviously by their actions. Not sure why someone would feel obligated to call 911 when it's not their car. CA did call 911 and did tell the dispatcher it smells like there's been a damn dead body in the car. GA wanted an explanation from his daughter. The car was not going anywhere and had already been compromised. jmo

 

[LC446]

Thank you for providing us with valuable information. I myself have seen plenty of dead people in my life time. I was in a horrible flash flood when I was 14 years old in which over 200 people died in the area i was located. Furthermore, my own spouse died in my arms, but I do not claim in any way shape or form that I know the smell of death even though I have probably smelled it a few times in my life. I think you need that close up experience like my son (a fireman) to really know what it is your talking about.

But really with such a compelling arguement or conclusion, can you see the defenses questions in this scenario after this has been established? Here are some examples and I would like your take on what you think will happen.

Mr S Birch, in light of the fact that we have established that the smell of death is so distinct, so unique, that you could never possibly forget it, and that is a smell that can not possibly be mistaken for anything else, When you smelled the smell of death, why did you not immediatley call 911? You went back to work.

Mr Anthony , I ask you the same. You yourself said you could never forget that smell. You even said the dead body in that trunk was not my grandaughter, you even said under your breath you said please don't let this be my daughter or granddaughter, I ask you sir, Why did you not immidiatley call 911? you went to work.

Mrs Anthony, you even said it smells like a dead body was in the car. Why did you not immediatley call 911? You went to work

Mr and Ms police officer, you know the smell, you have smelled it several times in your carreer. Why did you not immediatley seal off the car as a crime scene?

Mr Yuri, You are former homicide. You know that smell is so distinct and not mistaken. Why did you not seal off the car? Why did you not ask Kc about the smell?

How do you think this is going to play out in court if they are indeed able to establish that these people are not mistaken and are considered experts on the smell?

Thanks

I am only going to make a few more comments in reference to this and then I'm getting off this ride, lol!

First...a cadaver in a lab environment doesn't smell anything like a decomposing body. I am not claiming to be an expert in the "smell of death." All I can share is my first hand experience in this area. The odor is distinct, it doesn't smell like anything else. It does not happen right after someone dies and the environment has a great impact on the rate of decomp and the fierceness of the smell. My experience has been that the hotter the environment, the faster decomp happens and the worse the smell. I've seen a body in the summer in a closed house with no a/c and it was so very bad that the firefighters had to do the removal because they had to wear their breathing apparatus. He hadn't been there a long period of time. Another was in an enclosed house with a/c on very cold, the smell was almost non existent. I think the temperature inside had a great deal to do with it. These two bodies had been deceased approximately the same amount of time.

I will have to go back and do some reading to refresh my memory but I believe when the tow yard guy, George and Lee talked about the smell, the trunk was open, the smell would be much worse.

I am not making excuses for LE and I am curious to hear how they will answer the questions you mentioned but if I remember correctly, the vehicle was taken from the street in front of the house and the trunk was closed. I don't remember if any of the officers on the scene were in the garage with the vehicle with the trunk open or not or if any of them rummaged through her car. If no one entered the vehicle, I can understand why it was not noticed much quicker. Also, I think the focus was on finding Caylee, hence going on the wild goose chase. The car was not the focus at the time.

I don't think anyone is going to say that the above listed people are experts on this smell. I think what is being said is that some of the above listed people have had first hand experience smelling human decomposition.

Just because the people you listed above didn't immediately call 911 does not mean it didn't smell. The defense can ask all of those questions and the people being questioned will answer. I cannot speculate as to how they might answer. Based on the answers they give, the jury will either believe them or not. But just because they didn't call, does not mean the smell wasn't there.

 

[RR0004]

Thank you for providing us with valuable information. I myself have seen plenty of dead people in my life time. I was in a horrible flash flood when I was 14 years old in which over 200 people died in the area i was located. Furthermore, my own spouse died in my arms, but I do not claim in any way shape or form that I know the smell of death even though I have probably smelled it a few times in my life. I think you need that close up experience like my son (a fireman) to really know what it is your talking about.

But really with such a compelling arguement or conclusion, can you see the defenses questions in this scenario after this has been established? Here are some examples and I would like your take on what you think will happen.

Mr S Birch, in light of the fact that we have established that the smell of death is so distinct, so unique, that you could never possibly forget it, and that is a smell that can not possibly be mistaken for anything else, When you smelled the smell of death, why did you not immediatley call 911? You went back to work.

Mr Anthony , I ask you the same. You yourself said you could never forget that smell. You even said the dead body in that trunk was not my grandaughter, you even said under your breath you said please don't let this be my daughter or granddaughter, I ask you sir, Why did you not immidiatley call 911? you went to work.

Mrs Anthony, you even said it smells like a dead body was in the car. Why did you not immediatley call 911? You went to work

Mr and Ms police officer, you know the smell, you have smelled it several times in your carreer. Why did you not immediatley seal off the car as a crime scene?

Mr Yuri, You are former homicide. You know that smell is so distinct and not mistaken. Why did you not seal off the car? Why did you not ask Kc about the smell?

How do you think this is going to play out in court if they are indeed able to establish that these people are not mistaken and are considered experts on the smell?

Thanks

I sure hope they ask the As that question 'cause if they were keen to tell the truth it may go like this..."I was trying to protect my daughter". JMHO

 

[RR0004]

I personally cannot wait to see the testimony of the folks from the Body Farm. The work that they do is simply amazing. G-d bless LE for having the sense to involve them. Without a body, analyzing the air samples was the correct thing to do. The hair that was recovered along with the Body Farm's findings IMO indicates there was a dead body in the car.

 

[Mamabear1963]

I personally cannot wait to see the testimony of the folks from the Body Farm. The work that they do is simply amazing. G-d bless LE for having the sense to involve them. Without a body, analyzing the air samples was the correct thing to do. The hair that was recovered along with the Body Farm's findings IMO indicates there was a dead body in the car.

and remember when they were doing this research they were trying to prove that Caylee was dead. Now we know that she is...also...just watched a bunch of George blowing it videos on youtube and in one of them he says it wasn't his granddaughter in the car...but somebody else....

 

[RR0004]

and remember when they were doing this research they were trying to prove that Caylee was dead. Now we know that she is...also...just watched a bunch of George blowing it videos on youtube and in one of them he says it wasn't his granddaughter in the car...but somebody else....

...and that deal that was in place for a short time early on was offered by the SA with hopes that Casey would tell them where Caylee was. LE so desperately wanted to bring Caylee home.

 

[marspiter]

NTS the basic point I was making is that empty processed food containers found in Casey's car are in no way ever going to produce a smell similar to human decomp. I believe one of your main arguments has been that other things could produce a similar or identical smell. That is simply not the case. Anyone who works in emergency services, LE, morticians, medical examiners, pretty much anyone that has regular contact with human decomp will tell you that. Also there is a very clear distinction between someone who has died and someone who has been dead and allowed to decompose. Hence why your local nursing home doesn't cause visitors to vomit/gag/wretch upon entering. However people die there pretty regularly.

In many lab cadavers the bodies have been "processed" with chemicals in order to ward off decomposition much like a body would be prepared for a funeral. This is to ensure the body can remain viable for study for a longer period of time. I know the bodies I worked with had a very strong chemical/formaldehyde smell and did not contain any body fluids. I know they can inject a colored silicone like substance into the body in order to study the circulatory system. I've never personally seen it though.

As to why the officers at the scene did not respond immediately to the car? I could only venture a guess because I was not one of the officers on scene and do not know the protocols for Orange County. I do believe there was an entire thread on that however and I'm sure some good information was in that thread. This thread however is talking about human decomp in general terms and as it relates to this case.

 

[Harmony 2]

I will agree that everything Dr. Vass stated in his report is possible. This includes the 0.7 to 2.6 days, the Adipocere, the air sample, the decomp odor, the coffin flies, etc. etc. etc., and the last possibility is that it should be noted the decomp event may have been from something other than human origin.

I can totally understand how many people can believe it was Adipocere, coffin flies etc. It states all these things are possible in Dr. Vass’s report. I believe all those things are possible. I also believe it is possible that the decomp event may have been cause from something other than human origin, which if that is what caused the decomp event, then none of the other possiblities hold true.

To me that puts the Dr. Vass report in the maybe, maybe not category, which is reasonable doubt. As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

BBM

Marspiter's Chupacabra theory is just as believeable as Casey's dead squirrels crawling into the engine. http://www.trailershut.com/movies-2010.html

 

[logicalgirl]

BBM

Marspiter's Chupacabra theory is just as believeable as Casey's dead squirrels crawling into the engine. http://www.trailershut.com/movies-2010.html

Okay after months I'm finally going to ask - what's with Marspiter and the Chupacabre - I had to look up the definition - a mythical creature who sucks the blood of goats??????? EEEuuuuwww! Marspiter!:sick:

 

[marspiter]

Okay after months I'm finally going to ask - what's with Marspiter and the Chupacabre - I had to look up the definition - a mythical creature who sucks the blood of goats??????? EEEuuuuwww! Marspiter!:sick:

Totally OT, but..... they steal babies too. A perfect SODDI theory imho; well as good as anything we've heard from the defense. I believe I've outlined it somewhere here. :crazy:

It could also explain the decomp smell and the car. I would assume the chupacabra doesn't smell like wild flowers and vanilla given it's eating habits. Perhaps the smell was the linger odor left by the chupacabra.

Think of it as the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon....but with a twist.

 

[Mamabear1963]

Totally OT, but..... they steal babies too. A perfect SODDI theory imho; well as good as anything we've heard from the defense. I believe I've outlined it somewhere here. :crazy:

do you have a link?:truce:

 

[spqr]

do you have a link?:truce:

Here is one. But a simple internet search will produce MANY...have fun

http://urbanlegends.about.com/b/2009/09/02/chupacabra-pictures-video.htm

 

[spqr]

I will agree that everything Dr. Vass stated in his report is possible. This includes the 0.7 to 2.6 days, the Adipocere, the air sample, the decomp odor, the coffin flies, etc. etc. etc., and the last possibility is that it should be noted the decomp event may have been from something other than human origin.

I can totally understand how many people can believe it was Adipocere, coffin flies etc. It states all these things are possible in Dr. Vass’s report. I believe all those things are possible. I also believe it is possible that the decomp event may have been cause from something other than human origin, which if that is what caused the decomp event, then none of the other possiblities hold true.

To me that puts the Dr. Vass report in the maybe, maybe not category, which is reasonable doubt. As always, my entire post is my opinion only.

BBM

Devils A; in the spirit of good debate, can you please expand upon what you may think was decomposing in her trunk? I ask seriously as I would like to volley this theory and prove and/or debunk the possibilities. Thank you in advance.

Anyone who wishes to offer up other theory's, please do so. I would really like to get some ideas.

Anything besides lunch meat and pizza (I think that has been discussed at length already). Basically what other animal or mammal.

 

[marspiter]

BBM

Devils A; in the spirit of good debate, can you please expand upon what you may think was decomposing in her trunk? I ask seriously as I would like to volley this theory and prove and/or debunk the possibilities. Thank you in advance.

Anyone who wishes to offer up other theory's, please do so. I would really like to get some ideas.

I believe Dr. Vass mentioned something about rotten potatoes. However it should be noted that no potatoes are listed in the evidence docs as being in the trash.

So to me there seems to be a good explanation that is backed up by evidence. That explanation is Caylee was in the car and was decomposing or at a stage of decomposition. Thus explaining the adipocere, coffin flys, noted smell and other evidence associated with decomp.

The problem I see for the defense is that nothing else was found in the car that can even remotely explain this. No dead animals were found in the trunk. The trash consisted of empty processed food containers. It's not like KC was toting around a half a hog for a BBQ. No potatoes were found in the car or the trash.

Which brings us back to the fact that the defenses theory must be reasonable in the mind of an average person (juror).

I'm with you on this. What evidence is there that supports a different idea? Is there evidence that points to something else other then human decomp and what is that evidence?

 

[logicalgirl]

:biglaugh:

Totally OT, but..... they steal babies too. A perfect SODDI theory imho; well as good as anything we've heard from the defense. I believe I've outlined it somewhere here. :crazy:

It could also explain the decomp smell and the car. I would assume the chupacabra doesn't smell like wild flowers and vanilla given it's eating habits. Perhaps the smell was the linger odor left by the chupacabra.

Think of it as the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon....but with a twist.

:floorlaugh: I liked the definition that it is also an adult beverage containing tobasco sauce and.............

 

[watcher9]

BBM

Devils A; in the spirit of good debate, can you please expand upon what you may think was decomposing in her trunk? I ask seriously as I would like to volley this theory and prove and/or debunk the possibilities. Thank you in advance.

Anyone who wishes to offer up other theory's, please do so. I would really like to get some ideas.

Anything besides lunch meat and pizza (I think that has been discussed at length already). Basically what other animal or mammal.

I have never smelled a human corpse, but a neighbor was found dead in a trailer after about a week and they said the smell was so bad, they were going to have to destroy the trailer. This was after they kept the windows open for about two weeks.

For the sake of your request BBM, I can give you some examples of things I have smelled.

I guess someone could try to say it was a rattlesnake in the trunk. It smells like something dead. I've smelled them and it's a terrible smell. And, there was that dead one that Kronk had.

Dead animals can smell.
I've had to pull a shot dead deer out of a pond and it was enough to make me gag and gag.

A dead dog with vultures attacking it smells bad when the wind blows right.

I had a baby goat who was killed by a billy and by the time I got home that afternoon, it was already decomposing with maggots and blowflies, etc. all over the openings (eyes, nose, mouth, rectum). It smelled, but I don't remember an overwhelming smell.

Even the tadpoles I vacuumed out of the pole had a stench when they die out in the sun.

I can't remember exactly what HLee said when he looked into the trunk to examine it, but he knew it right off. Maybe someone remembers the video where IIRC he jerked his head back when he got a whiff.

Even after ICA and the A's tried their best to clean out all the evidence, I have no doubt that it was Caylee's decomposing body that was in the trunk of the car, NONE WHATSOEVER.

 

[Nore]

I watched a Dr G last night where an alcoholic had passed out and fell into a body of water and drowned. They found him the next day and by that time there was absolutely no blood left at all. Dr. G was unable to run a tox screen on the blood which hindered her autopsy. Interestingly, the water slowed down the decomp process, but still and all after one day in the Fl sun, there was no blood left..zero. No trauma or bleeding or anything like that. FWIW.

-------------------------
I watched that also.I watch all her programs, one can really learn a lot.These are real cases but never morbid.It is amazing what a body can "tell".

 

[notthatsmart]

nts;

I get where you are coming from, you have a couple of angles, curiosity, need for sound science to back up things, and perhaps are studying to be a defense attorney.

The sad thing about the adipocere and the human decomp is that they were both in the truck of KC's car.

Adipocere testing is already done for the State, and, the defense's expert on that, will show it was there and it was human. That should not be in a trunk of anyone's car. It will not be found to be food or a nice fresh pig melting away in KC's trunk. Even a trace amount is too much.

Human decomp smell was noticed and already recorded by Cindy, George, and Yuri, I am not certain whom else, not going to look up the doc dump links right now. The new "sniff test" is great but unnecessary. No other beast or product smells like human decomp. The new science is great, it may finally get it's first trial use, which is it's purpose. It too will be tested by a defense expert. That is what experts are for. DNA was fairly new in murder trials in the early 90's. I remember a case my boss spent months of research trying to prove it fallible. Guess what, DNA testing is fallible, however, even the defense DNA expert found the same results with their own tests, and found no error in reviewing the State's tests. In every DNA case, both sides have experts.

Keep in mind at trial, both experts will use terms as "consistent with." That is just the scientific and probably legal way things must be stated. There may be some arguing from the experts that sounds good, the defense experts will try to make a lengthy argument to suggest some doubt. However, jurors are usually pretty keen, and will realize just what I said above, neither element should be in anyone's car. There is something wrong here.

I say this to help you to research some on the topics off of WS, we are not experts we have just learned by following cases. Try the internet, try law libraries, try scientific research. Whatever you can. I am just telling you these things so you can grasp the topics at hand.

Best of luck in your research!

The problem is, is that many assume it is actually adipocere and human decomp and that it is established as fact. There is no document that supports this. I suggest you go back and read Dr Vass preliminary report and final report followed up by the emails he exchanged with ASL Vincent. Read it over and over until it is realized he is not saying what some are thinking. So we must agree to disagree because we interpret the docs in a different manner. The jury will not see 50 post for, and 1 or 2 post against, they will see and hear equally both sides. So imagine being in a thread where the minority is just as strong in numbers as the majority. Imagine my post times 50. That is the fair playing field that the jury will see. IMO

 

[notthatsmart]

I believe Dr. Vass mentioned something about rotten potatoes. However it should be noted that no potatoes are listed in the evidence docs as being in the trash.

So to me there seems to be a good explanation that is backed up by evidence. That explanation is Caylee was in the car and was decomposing or at a stage of decomposition. Thus explaining the adipocere, coffin flys, noted smell and other evidence associated with decomp.

The problem I see for the defense is that nothing else was found in the car that can even remotely explain this. No dead animals were found in the trunk. The trash consisted of empty processed food containers. It's not like KC was toting around a half a hog for a BBQ. No potatoes were found in the car or the trash.

Which brings us back to the fact that the defenses theory must be reasonable in the mind of an average person (juror).

I'm with you on this. What evidence is there that supports a different idea? Is there evidence that points to something else other then human decomp and what is that evidence?

This is where I disagree with Csi Bloise. There were maggots in that bag and where there are maggots there is food. Maggots need food to multiply. So someone is trying to pull the wool over someones eyes here. Maggots do not form on clean washed out recycled containers. There must be food. IMO

So some established that there is no food and I established that there must be food. Agree to disagree? thanks

Ps what evidence is there to support a different idea. Maggots is the answer yes indeed. thanks

 

[RR0004]

Maggots migrate...do we know which direction the maggots traveled from?