Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #2

[Blink34]

? I don't get it. There is everything there for people to work with...Lilly is nuts. He does love what he says. He probably has done what he fantasizes about to this day. I have a difficult time believing it involves these young men. I would more suspect him of gaining power over children or lesser males. He is not choosing the brightest and the most athletic for his pursuits, imo. He fantasizes that he could. He is not a viable suspect in any of the drownings.

I agree, but I would not discount him as a "martyr" of sorts for some sort of following. I think the co by state issue is a red herring. I'm not sure the perps in some ways, care about getting caught individually as much as they fear retaliation from exposure to the group. Great thoughts Shad &SS

 

[Blink34]

On the other hand, while I think talking up the Smiley Face Gang may encourage copycats, maybe it will "flush out" individuals who committed crimes who don't want others "getting credit" for their crimes. They might brag to someone that they really did it...but will LE be listening?

I think that angle is important and directly tied to the rash of new cases we are seeing (4 vics this week potentially).

 

[Blink34]

On Alphonse Michael Barbiere's case here, we have extensively gone through BAC and BAL in response to TOD scenarios. His case involved hypothermia as opposed to drowning, but we covered a lot of ground in the breakdown of alcohol there.

Yes, the autopsy results and tox screen will be interesting in Jacobson's case. I wonder if we will be privy to those.

SS is exactly right, the BAC/BAL tests in these prospective cases can be actually more important in determining, based on known witness accounts, how long they may have been alive after they were last seen.

 

[Silver~Bell]

I do think copycat killings are happening. And...as the mother of a college student who so exactly fits the profile of those dying...I am not too happy with the hoopla over the "gang" and nothing new backing it up from those detectives. I see lots of people very much buying into the "nationwide Smiley Face gang" idea, as I initially did...but I'm not seeing evidence of the truth of that idea.

So now the "lovely" idea of a gang of killers going after college guys is in the psyche of the insane, the "gang" remains unexposed, and plenty of copycats can jump in during this time between the startling declaration of a Smiley Face Gang and the eventual, IMO, disproving of that idea.

At what cost to the victims of copycats was the obviously premature announcement by the detectives of a "gang"?

I think the detectives have discovered something that did need to be brought forth, and that is the core idea that is so obvious, to me, that criminals in the last decade have begun to go after young males just as they do young females. I think many males have been victims of crimes, but this is not brought forward because there is the attitude that men are protected by their strength and gender.

I think criminals are getting more and more emboldened and have become so extra-evil that now they are targeting males, trying to turn the whole society into their victims. I think evil is loose but it isn't necessarily in gang form.

And now I'll bow out b/c the overwhelming feeling on WS is obviously that there IS a gang, and I'm not interested in stirring the pot and being oppositional. If there turns out to be a gang, I'll come back and eat my hat. :crazy:

 

[Blink34]

SB
I do not believe it is a "gang". I do not believe the Smiley's are put there by the killer/killers necessarily as I think it is more of an urban myth thing. It may have started as some sort of a marker, but now I think it's just bunk. I don't really see your opinion that WS'rs concur it's a gang, I see us coming to the conclusion for the most part, that is pretty unlikely as it has been represented so far. While I agree with your sentiment that the detectives have more and would like to know what that is. These are ongoing criminal investigations in some cases and from a practical matter, they are licensed investigators and could be prosecuted themselves for obstruction should they jeopardize a case. I truly believe they got to a point where they could not get any further without help (probably technology/warrants) and put it out there for exactly that.
Think about it- if they were in it for the cash/glory, they would have written a book quietly, then broke this story. There are hundreds if not thousands of posts on this all over the country, I have to assume that means had they done that, they would have had enough to make the NYTBSL in the first week. I think we have to keep churning in support.
For me personally, I can't go back to biz as usual in these cases.

 

[Silver~Bell]

I don't really see your opinion that WS'rs concur it's a gang, I see us coming to the conclusion for the most part, that is pretty unlikely as it has been represented so far.

I think there's a devoted "all connected/gang" component on WS and as a long-time lurker, I have also seen where opposing viewpoints were disruptive in nature, and don't want to do that. B/c I put my ideas out there, and after this post, that's enough from me! I think it's politer to leave the threads to those working to solve it from the connected-viewpoint.

While I agree with your sentiment that the detectives have more and would like to know what that is.

I differ from you here. I think they have zip, nada, nothing more...only said they did...and thus my "ire" that they'd posit a nationwide gang, which was sure to bring copycats.

Think about it- if they were in it for the cash/glory, they would have written a book quietly, then broke this story. There are hundreds if not thousands of posts on this all over the country, I have to assume that means had they done that, they would have had enough to make the NYTBSL in the first week. I think we have to keep churning in support.
For me personally, I can't go back to biz as usual in these cases.

You must have me confused with another poster? B/c I never hinted I think they're in it for money or glory. I think they are odd, though...and I think the "nationwide gang" angle they declared has really NOT helped get LE to take a look again at some of the suspicious cases. The baby is getting thrown out with the bathwater and the picture is getting confused when individual crimes or a few linked crimes are chalked up to a National Smiley Face Gang.

 

[Blink34]

Fair enough, I was just encouraging opposing viewpoints can be helpful and I personally think it keeps things in check- was just wanting you to know that, but I see your point and rspect your opinion.

I was not attaching the "det" money thing to you, was just throwing it out there, sorry if you felt I was.

Regarding the "add'l info, I respect your opinion and we can agree to disagree. I think if they did not they never would have brought this **** storm on themselves- their own former NYPD is not backing them currently in these cases.

I look forward to any of your posts in the future , on any thread as you see fit .

 

[SuziQ]

Late last night I was going through various blogs discussing this case. I don't remember specific sites and they all pretty much covered what we already know. But, time and time again WS was mentioned as the place to go to for, as one site put it, "workable" information. In other words, we are organized and have a good information database.

A special thanks to everyone for their hard work on this forum.

 

[SuziQ]

? I don't get it. There is everything there for people to work with...Lilly is nuts. He does love what he says. He probably has done what he fantasizes about to this day. I have a difficult time believing it involves these young men. I would more suspect him of gaining power over children or lesser males. He is not choosing the brightest and the most athletic for his pursuits, imo. He fantasizes that he could. He is not a viable suspect in any of the drownings.

And that reflects why the very small part of me that doesn't think Lilly is involved.

 

[Blink34]

Late last night I was going through various blogs discussing this case. I don't remember specific sites and they all pretty much covered what we already know. But, time and time again WS was mentioned as the place to go to for, as one site put it, "workable" information. In other words, we are organized and have a good information database.

A special thanks to everyone for their hard work on this forum.

If you don't mind me making an additional observation, I found the posters here much more versed in the details of these cases. Could be difference between "commenting vs. blogging", but it was notable.

 

[hockeymom]

According to the local radio station,WGY,Det. Gannon will visit Bill Szostak this weekend in Albany as he is convinced the details From Josh's case,mirror many others. the local talk show guy,Al Roney is going to try and get an interview with him.

Also,I got word from a local cop,that Albany PD is completley satisfied that they did their job,and case is closed. They went to the 2 bars Josh was in,found out what he drank and felt he was drinking enough to be intoxicated. My belief is,thats all they needed to hear and investigation over.I will continue over the weekend to speak to some local LE and see what else I find out.

 

[Blink34]

According to the local radio station,WGY,Det. Gannon will visit Bill Szostak this weekend in Albany as he is convinced the details From Josh's case,mirror many others. the local talk show guy,Al Roney is going to try and get an interview with him.

Also,I got word from a local cop,that Albany PD is completley satisfied that they did their job,and case is closed. They went to the 2 bars Josh was in,found out what he drank and felt he was drinking enough to be intoxicated. My belief is,thats all they needed to hear and investigation over.I will continue over the weekend to speak to some local LE and see what else I find out.

hockey- as a local, can you find out the details of the car theft that they initially suspected was related to Josh's disappearance? I cant find anything..

 

[Blink34]

And that reflects why the very small part of me that doesn't think Lilly is involved.

For me, I think his stated enjoyment is why he does not fit. I personally do not think that is motive here. DO I think he is a dangerous wackjob? Absolutely.

 

[SuziQ]

Thank you hockeymom. I think you are correct that all LE needs to hear is that intoxication was involved and they close the case. As if being intoxicated protects you from becomming a victim of a crime. Well then Liquor makers all over the world better jump on that fact and use it as a marketing strategy. I never knew liquor had such powers. Thank you LE for setting me straight on that one. (insert sarcastic smiley).

 

[DeltaDawn]

According to the local radio station,WGY,Det. Gannon will visit Bill Szostak this weekend in Albany as he is convinced the details From Josh's case,mirror many others. the local talk show guy,Al Roney is going to try and get an interview with him.

Also,I got word from a local cop,that Albany PD is completely satisfied that they did their job,and case is closed. They went to the 2 bars Josh was in,found out what he drank and felt he was drinking enough to be intoxicated. My belief is,thats all they needed to hear and investigation over.I will continue over the weekend to speak to some local LE and see what else I find out.

Thank you Hockeymom..it's wonderful to have all this local info from various posters. I spent sometime last evening listening to the Al Roney interview with Bill Szostak. It was very interesting and sad.. I hope this family can get some closure that is accurate.

 

[SuziQ]

At the below link there are six cases labled coincidences. If you click on each case and scroll down you will see the heading coincidences or strange coincidences. Not listed and should be included are the cases where a mysterious phone call was involved or the appearance of running away from someone or something.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/search/label/coincidences

One of the coincidences:

Nick Rossini is the second young man to go missing from the small suburb of White Bear Lake, MN since the 1999 disappearance of Nathan Edberg. Edberg was last seen at a bar and his truck was later found empty in a ditch off the highway. Police believe Edberg accidentally drove off the road, but he has never been found. In a strange coincidence, the Rossini home is not too far from Decoy's Bar where Nathan Edberg was last seen. The mothers of both young men also work together at Lincoln Elementary school and live within a few miles of each other. Edberg's mother, Jackie, advised Rossini's mother, Pat, on how to handle the media and was helping the Rossini family cope with the disappearance.

After graduating from White Bear Lake high school in 2004, Nick attended St. John's University, where just two years earlier, student Joshua Guimond disappeared.

 

[Blink34]

At the below link there are six cases labled coincidences. If you click on each case and scroll down you will see the heading coincidences or strange coincidences. Not listed and should be included are the cases where a mysterious phone call was involved or the appearance of running away from someone or something.

http://footprintsattheriversedge.blogspot.com/search/label/coincidences

One of the coincidences:

Nick Rossini is the second young man to go missing from the small suburb of White Bear Lake, MN since the 1999 disappearance of Nathan Edberg. Edberg was last seen at a bar and his truck was later found empty in a ditch off the highway. Police believe Edberg accidentally drove off the road, but he has never been found. In a strange coincidence, the Rossini home is not too far from Decoy's Bar where Nathan Edberg was last seen. The mothers of both young men also work together at Lincoln Elementary school and live within a few miles of each other. Edberg's mother, Jackie, advised Rossini's mother, Pat, on how to handle the media and was helping the Rossini family cope with the disappearance.

After graduating from White Bear Lake high school in 2004, Nick attended St. John's University, where just two years earlier, student Joshua Guimond disappeared.

SQ- remarkable, Ive been on that site 50x and missed that- again, fairly compelling evidence-

 

[luthersmama]

Has anyone seen anything about the sexual orientation of the possible victims?

Why would I ask? Because it might suggest whether some or any or none of them would have willingly gotten into a vehicle if propositioned.

 

[shadowraiths]

? I don't get it.

I highly doubt there is some nationwide smiley face gang with pods operating in various states. I do however think that the deaths are may be a combination of the following:

• Accidental drownings as a direct result of alcohol consumption. At most, explainable for 38-40% of the missing/drowning cases. The remaing 60-62% (per both witness and autopsy accounts) did not involve alcohol or any other drug.
  
  
• Completely unrelated murders by a single individual (Carrick) or multiple people (Hlavaty).
  
  
• The concentration in the midwest alone, raises the possibility of a serial killer.
  
  
• The trend that has, since 2004, begun involving states outside of the midwest, raises the very real possibility that copycat "kills" (as a direct result of the media coverage) are occurring.

As for this latest "smiley face gang" bit? From what has been released thus far, imnsho, the media (and these detectives) made a very dangerous and irresponsible choice with no apparent foresight wrt the direction their so-called "revelations" could take. The least of which now involves the very real possibility of idiots deciding to go kill someone and paint a smiley face at the scene.

 

[fran]

Has anyone seen anything about the sexual orientation of the possible victims?

Why would I ask? Because it might suggest whether some or any or none of them would have willingly gotten into a vehicle if propositioned.

I'm not so certain the sexual orientation would fit into this; however, it could be someone they would trust if offered a ride. AND, OR,....as has been stated, a GROUP that could surround them so they couldn't get away. There have been a few cases that the victim was able to let someone know 'people' were after them.

Just a thought,
fran