That's how I see this also and as you posted; it was the emergence of the internet that created the awareness. As long as millions of young men go out every weekend and drink heavily; there'll be lots of unfortunate accidents including 4 or 5 accidental drownings every year. Good point also that the media saw this as a good story to sell and that's why when you rewatch these initial videos and read the early articles; very little is discussed about actual BAC's and the comparison numbers from the 1960's through the 1980's. They emphasize high GPA instead of high BAC
Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #4
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That's how I see this also and as you posted; it was the emergence of the internet that created the awareness. As long as millions of young men go out every weekend and drink heavily; there'll be lots of unfortunate accidents including 4 or 5 accidental drownings every year. Good point also that the media saw this as a good story to sell and that's why when you rewatch these initial videos and read the early articles; very little is discussed about actual BAC's and the comparison numbers from the 1960's through the 1980's. They emphasize high GPA instead of high BAC
Blink34
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Don't be embarrassed about the amount of time you spent hunting down drowning statistics, that's your j o b. WebSLEUTH, LOL.
I agree that there may NOT be an increase of male drowings overall, and I know that overall there's more males drown than females. That's not in dispute here, I don't believe. What's disturbing about these cases is the 'unexplained' portion of each case. Out drinking with friends, last seen either in a bar, party, in front of a bar or party, walking with friends and next thing you know they're gone, walking home late at night 'alone,' only to be found in a river, retention pond, pool, disappear without a trace, for just no darn good reason.
The majority were NOT suicidal. SOME were not even drinking. SOME had a small amount to drink. Some had just a block or two to walk. SOME disappeared from their own college campus and were found blocks and some times miles away, out of their way.
SOME, to be quite frank, were just to darn drunk to have drowned. IE...meaning they were just too drunk to have even gotten to the area to have put themselves in that position, like walking across four to eight lanes of highway to the river's edge.
SOME made incoherent last phone calls.
SOME made last phone calls that they were being persued.
SOME made last phone calls saying they'd be home in 10 minutes and ended up miles away in a river or lake.
SOME made last phone calls that were disconnected.
SOME were seen with 'strangers,' and later found drowned.
SOME, just ended up drowned with absolutely 'no explanation' other than they drowned and it was accidental. Not even an explantion of WHY they were at the river.
SOME disappeared but their car was found. One car accident. Car problems. No problem. Just car located and victim disappeared without a trace. THE END
There are a few of these cases I truly believe are isolated incidents. Like one of the latest students 'missing,' Brandon Swanson, I believe he tripped and fell into an unknown sink-hole or something. IF you read his dad's account of what he said just before the phone went dead, that's what I believe for HIS case only, for now.
SOME of these could have been foul play with whoever was with them.
SOME could be foul play with, say a bouncer at the bar, a local LE (not saying it is, just what if? and possible), another patron(s) in the bar who were also under the influence and did something.......
I just feel each case should have someone look at them in a collective manner, gather all the information and compare. Maybe do some interviews. Talk to the parents. Try to go through the students computer. etc
Oh, and you're right, there's not enough attention given to minorities. But, that's not necessarily the media's fault. It takes someone connected to the case to keep the victim's picture, story, out there.
Honestly, I could be completely wrong. I don't know what's behind the scenes. Just from my seat, many of these cases look suspicious and not just an 'accident.'
JMHO
fran
Fran- I would only add 2 things to your insightful post:
ALL were seperated from friends and alone.
A few made phone calls and connected but never actually spoke.
fran
Former Member
Yes Blink, you're absolutely right. The ONE thing that they ALL have in common, they were last known to be 'alone,' or thought or assumed to be alone,..........or seen with a stranger, late at night or in the early morning hours, or they just were there one minute and gone the next, never to be seen alive again.
IF this is in fact a 'crime spree,' they are COUNTING on LE BELIEVING these are accidents.
The PERFECT CRIME = When a crime is NOT detected.
JMHO
fran
PS....what was that one saying? follow the money........:waitasec:
money is the root of all evil
sex, lies, and video tape
mysteriew
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Fran, I pretty much agree with you. I don't think they were all murders, I think some may have been accidental, some may have even been suicidal. But I do think some are suspicious, and I do think they should take a new look at them.
Before they made mention of a 'group' involvement I wondered if perhaps there was someone who for some reason was traveling from college to college, perhaps a visiting professor.salesman, or even a delivery person who would go from college to college as a part of his job, and while he was there he would cause a young man to drown. But now the colleges are becoming more spread out in a wider area, so that is looking less likely.
I would be interested in your theory of the deaths.
Before they made mention of a 'group' involvement I wondered if perhaps there was someone who for some reason was traveling from college to college, perhaps a visiting professor.salesman, or even a delivery person who would go from college to college as a part of his job, and while he was there he would cause a young man to drown. But now the colleges are becoming more spread out in a wider area, so that is looking less likely.
I would be interested in your theory of the deaths.
RR0004
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It's not a 10 to 15 minute walk from the eastside to the westside. And if he were to have transversed the entire width of the island he would have had to go through Central Park (and why would he have done that in the wee hours of the morning?) then hit Riverside Drive (busy thoroughfare) before he would hit the Henry Hudson Pkwy....and then after crossing the highway he would have accidentally fallen into the water? BAC or no BAC...he didn't do that IMO.
Moe
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Thank you for the infomation, you learn something new everyday!
fran
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I won't give my whole theory but I will give part.
I do feel it's a group of 'like thinking' people.
Some, MAY be college professors.
Others work in and around the colleges.
Each does not necessarily work at a college in the exact town, or even state, where a particular crime was committed.
There is a hierchy (sp?) of sorts.
The group is very mobil, having to do with their profession.
I do not believe it's anyone necessarily connected to the bars, the bands, etc.
I believe the # of states involved has increased as the number of participants has increased and as the group moves around within the boundaries of the incidents.
I'm not certain that ALL of them are targeted prior to the actual incident.
I believe MANY are more of an 'opportune type' moment.
I believe that the MO varies according to the particular group and plans for the victim.
I believe alcohol is involved because that's part of their MO, the victim is easier to manipulate, conquer, whatever.
ALL of the missing and drowned cases are NOT connected to each other. There are some individual incidents, such as suicide, accident, and 'other.'
How have they kept from getting caught? Secrecy, it's ONE of the MOST IMPORTANT parts of their connection.
WHAT they're doing with these young men is NOT new, but the 'death' part is. That's because to insure they do NOT get caught, NO ONE gets out alive.
IMO, this case is {spooky}!
JMHO
fran
You're welcome Mel. And I was thinking there's a nasty trick to this recreational GHB. The initial effects are a bit similiar to ecstasy so kids refer to it as "liquid ecstasy", but ecstasy is a stimulant that keeps kids alert; or at least fairly alert; even if they overdrink. But GHB is a powerful depressant; so when booze is mixed; it reacts opposite of ecstasy and can really knock someone out cold. In reading up on when some kids began switching from ecstasy to GHB; I was surprised to read that it was in the mid to late '90's that a lot of kids began to use GHB instead of ecstasy. It appears both have remained popular today but something else I was thinking. GHB is a date rape drug, so I'm thinking GHB is probably only taken by men for recreation, while women in this scene probably prefer ecstacy. The laws need to be toughened up on GHB dealers--mixed with alcohol it might be a cause of some of these drownings, but it also might be the cause of many fatal driving accidents and other accidents
Hey RR, I don't think we'll ever know what happened to Patrick McNeil and maybe your gut feeling is right and he was murdered. I know you doubt it was an accident and you might be right, but for Pat McNeil and also all the other kids; suicide is also possible. I don't know about McNeil either way; just not enough info. But in studying these drownings it's important to know that suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death for men in the 20-24 age bracket. Who knows why but sometimes young men turn to booze or drugs when depression sets in; while women sometimes find better ways to cope, so many less women commit suicide. A lot of people don't know the numbers, but 4 times as many men commit suicide as women(oddly this is the same 80% stat for men versus women in the accidentally drowning stats). I don't mean to depress you or anyone else but here's a link about suicide because it might be a factor in some of these drownings.
http://menshealth.about.com/cs/mentalhealth/a/suicide.htm
mysteriew
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IMO, this case is {spooky}!
JMHO
fran
I agree, very spooky!!!
Whoever is doing this, I think they initially wanted it to stay hidden. But as they were were doing it and getting by with it, I think they wanted to start 'claiming' it. In other words they are getting bolder.
Because they wanted it to be hidden at first, I don't think this is a terrorist activity. Terrorist activity is by nature something that will put fear and terror in other's eyes. They don't want it to stay hidden, they want it out there as an example for others.
I still think this is a group who meets or has met for some other reason. And that the murders kind of evolved as a part of the reason for them meeting. Like maybe one did it, said that it helped them and that the others began doing it.
I don't think the boys are targeted so much as the type is targeted. College age and drinking. IOW I think that they just go to a bar and watch for really drunk guys, get their attention, and it goes from there.
Thank you for this post and you are completely right. It takes me fifteen minutes to walk from just 50th and Fifth to Columbus Circle. Fifteen minutes from the east to west side is a gross exaggeration.
I need to read up on this, but what bar was he at on 90th and Second? I used to live a block away.
He was at Dapper Dog which is on 2nd Ave and 92nd Street. This is not far from the Hudson. Anyone's guess as to how he died; is pure speculation. Since his BAC is kept a secret by his family and since his family would never say if he was on any medicfication for depression or other problems; then it's a complete mystery how he died. He left the bar early because he said he was tired and was last seen walking on 90th street by a witness who said he looked disorientated. He was seen walking away from the subway he should have been taking to get back to Fordham. Sounds to me like he was wasted and didn't know what he was doing
MeoW333
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Did anyone check out this blog?
http://smileyfacekillers.blogspot.c...-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-06:00&max-results=14
by
Juggalo 4 life?
Juggalos are those that follow groups such as Insane Clown Posse and the like. They dress themselves in makeup looking like insane clowns literally. They would have it out for normal preppy white boys.
http://smileyfacekillers.blogspot.c...-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-06:00&max-results=14
by
Juggalo 4 life?
Juggalos are those that follow groups such as Insane Clown Posse and the like. They dress themselves in makeup looking like insane clowns literally. They would have it out for normal preppy white boys.
I haven't heard of that bar, so I'll have to look it up. However, you are mistaken about the Hudson River - 92nd St and 2nd Ave is on the Upper East Side (Yorkville really) close to the East River or to the Harlem River. The Hudson River is on the west side and seperates New Jersey and New York. Fordham is on the west side, not far from the Hudson River.
Also, there is no subway by 90th street that would get you to Fordham. There is a subway stop at 86 Street and Lexington or 96th Street and Lexington. However, those are the 4, 5 and 6 lines that run north and south - there is no subway running east - west on the Upper East Side. So he would have either taken the 4, 5 or 6 to a transfer station and then switched trains. Or he could have tried to take a cross town bus, which IMO, would make more sense.
fran
Former Member
I believe you're on the right track. I too do NOT believe it has anything to do with terrorists.
I too believe they originally met for 'other reasons' and it has now evolved.
I also believe the 'type' is right on too!
As many of the young men disappear walking down a street, they may not even have to go 'inside' the bar. Just hang around and cruise. When they see what they want, TARGET!! Sometimes I DO believe they somehow befriend the victim. IMO, that's why some suddenly disappear from INSIDE the bar.
JMHO
fran
The Hudson is still only 2-3 miles from 92 street and 2nd Avenue or within a 30 minute walk, right? But regardless; does this even matter? When someone says they're taking a subway home but is seen just a half hour later looking disorientated oj the sidewalk and walking in the complete opposite direction of the subway; then it's just a waste of time to guess what happened because the victim himself; made no sense. There was no logic to anything Pat McNeil did after he said good bye to his friends. And he was seen a good half hour after he left the bar, so no abduction in the bar and no quick abduction when he leaves. Gannon and the family have created a lot of emotion but have no facts to support foul play. None at all. Murder, suicide or accident--flip a coin. And that goes with almost every one of these drownings. Its all a bunch of bs as I see it now
You're exactly right. The search crews went 2 directions. One went the way of subway 4 and 6 because that was how he usually would get home. The other went to 90th and in the opposite direction because that was where he was seen walking away from the 4 and 6; looking disorientated
fran
Former Member
Gannon and the family have not created this. These drownings and disappearances have been ongoing for years. I heard about this at least four years ago, pre-Gannon.
So, we should just dismiss 18 drownings and 7 missing? Open/Shut Case? 07-08 school year alone
IF one of these young men was my son, I would not just take this as a 'coincidence?' I would want to be SURE my son's death wasn't a crime. That would be the least I would owe him.
IF these cases are ALL just a COINCIDENCE, then it would appear that the East Coast, the MidWest, and Southern states need to educate the population on the DANGER of drinking when there's a body of water around, being ALONE (after having even a couple of drinks,) late at night and into the early morning hours.
We've gone from one potential victim (or accident?)in a year to 25 in one school year. We've gone from this happening in one state to numerous states. PLUS, it keeps happening over and over and over and over in the same cities, same states, same, same, same..........
These areas seem to have some sort of a drinking problem that is not evident in the rest of the United States. At least to such a great degree, IMO.
Ahhh......but that's just it, the perfect crime.
IF these are crimes, that's what the perps are counting on. No body = no crime......no evidence of foul play = no crime.
I see no harm in the government forming a task force to gather all the information regarding each individual case and LOOK into it. Talk to people. Look at computer info. Look at cell phone info.
IMO, that's the ONLY WAY they're going to be able to prove IF it's a crime or IF it's all a COINCIDENCE.
JMHO
fran
Blink34
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SL:
For someone who has spent as much time as you have, if you recall, actually claiming to have these cases figured out in the very beginning, I am more than surprised to hear you say this is BS.
Secondly, since you feel the detectives theory in that these cases are linked is "debunked" for you- what is your explanation then based on your research?
I hope you'll forgive me for not quoting the source, but a colleague of mine gave me a statisitic yesterday that FLOORED ME.
In some Le departments, especially where they maintain jurisdiction because a MP case is not yet a death, or an a criminal act, the officers assigned in some cases actually have more training in ANIMAL CONTROL than they do in dealing with interviewing witnesses, securing possible crime scene evidence, and the like. How fair is it to put someone that has not been trained for such a task responsible for it, or in some cases, finding a loved one where time could be critical. Answers need to be had for these families and the process needs to change, or this is going to go on and on-
For someone who has spent as much time as you have, if you recall, actually claiming to have these cases figured out in the very beginning, I am more than surprised to hear you say this is BS.
Secondly, since you feel the detectives theory in that these cases are linked is "debunked" for you- what is your explanation then based on your research?
I hope you'll forgive me for not quoting the source, but a colleague of mine gave me a statisitic yesterday that FLOORED ME.
In some Le departments, especially where they maintain jurisdiction because a MP case is not yet a death, or an a criminal act, the officers assigned in some cases actually have more training in ANIMAL CONTROL than they do in dealing with interviewing witnesses, securing possible crime scene evidence, and the like. How fair is it to put someone that has not been trained for such a task responsible for it, or in some cases, finding a loved one where time could be critical. Answers need to be had for these families and the process needs to change, or this is going to go on and on-
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