RR0004
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I believe, as has been posted, the body naturally produces GHB so it truly is difficult to tell regardless. (I think I got that right!?)
Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #4
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RR0004
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He could have also had something slipped into his drink. Trust me...I've walked that area of NY after a night of drinking (in my much younger years)...he would not have ventured that far down to the river...unless he was taken there. His family doesn't have to release squat...they were suspicious from the get-go and were quite aware of what he had to drink, I'm sure.
PS- I don't like discrepencies either...but I remember hearing about this case when it actually happened and thought (probably my gut talking) that it didn't sound right at all.
I think in a handful of these cases there is foul play, but when kids blow 3 times the legal limit; there doesn't need to be a serial killer out there. The killer is alcohol with or without drugs. And that's why Wisconsin has had about the same number of college males die from drunk drowning accidents in the 1970's and 1980's; as they did from 1997 to 2006. The number have not changed in 30 years for Wisconsin and it's because the serial killer is ALCOHOL EVERY Wisconsin kid had at least 15 beers and was about 3 times the legal limit or more. One was 4 times and 1 was 5 times. Here is a link to a Wisconsin article that is all about the volunteer River Watch group of kids who now make sure that every single night the river is patrolled in Wisconsin. Since this started; not a single kid has drowned in Wisconsin. Here's a bit of it and the link to the article down below. Its a great article; it shows the actual battle the city is having with the killer called alcohol:
Rachael Collins is a volunteer with the student organization River Watch, run by the city's three colleges. She is looking for drunk people. River Watch formed last fall after a drunk student fell off the park's levee and drowned in the Mississippi. Collins points to the river. It's black and almost indistinguishable from asphalt. There's no fence. She imagines a kid leaving downtown -- drunk and disoriented.
"You can see that in their mind they're thinking, 'Oh, I'm gonna go try to find my way home on a street.' And they'll follow it down and end up in the water thinking it's a road," Collins says. ....... Drink specials," Collins cuts in. "Five dollars - all you can drink! I mean, one thing adds to another, and at the end of the night you've got an extremely intoxicated person who blows four times the legal limit," she says.
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2007/01/31/laxdrunks/
Moe; as Lutheresmama pointed out; GHB is an extremely popular recreational drug for tons of young men; including college males. Many are now addicted and take it every weekend. Just google search ghb recreational drug and you'll see. Maybe you wouldn't take it for fun. Neither would I; but it's not about us. And many in GHB addiction recovery; as in Alcohol recovery; cannot explain why they enjoy taking a drug that completely blacks them out at times; but they say they were addicted and enjoyed it very much. Here's GHB Addiction Treatment webpage
http://www.drug-rehab.ca/GHBaddiction.htm
If alive it takes 4-7 hours to leave; if dead only 24-36 hours.
The family can release what they want, but the lower the BAC the more likely foul play was involved. So if it's a low BAC; the family would strengthen thier case by releasing the BAC. Just speculating but not releasing tells me it wasn't low. Isn't the river just half a mile or so from where he was last seen and couldn't he have turned back and decided to go back to the bar and instead walked right up to the Hudson?
SeriouslySearching
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Great job, Fran!! 
RR0004
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Nope...emphatically..NO WAY! I know that walk...even at 1:00 in the morning he would have had to negotiate a busy intersection that leads on to a highway...keep going and still he'd have to go even further to get to the river. He was a local boy. He'd know the city. I would just like to know WHO was responsible for his drowning.
RR0004
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It's not the Hudson on the eastside of NY...it's the East River. The Hudson is all the way on the other side of Manhattan...and IF that was his point of entry (have no idea about currents and such, but I highly doubt it 'cause I think if it had been, his body would then have washed up in Staten Island or NJ) then 100% it wasn't accidental drowning.
You're right. If he was seen walking east and disorientated that would be away from the Hudson River and towards the East River. That had to be why Gannon took an interest in this case. Plus Fordham was also on the east so it made no sense to go west. But the family chooses to keep the BAC a secret which hurts their credibility because if the BAC is high; then while you're right that the Hudson is on the other side of Manhaatan; it's still just a 10 or 15 minute walk to the Hudson; from say 90th street and 2nd Ave; which is where the bar was at; that he drank at. He might have been murdered but keeping the BAC a secret means he was probably pretty drunk
If you never had a black out drunk; the best way I could describe it is that you are awake physically but asleep mentally. You go out drinking beer at say 7:00 p.m. and maybe at midnight you and your friends drink a bunch of shots. It's 1:00 a.m. and you've had 10 beers and 6 shots of whiskey and then a point comes where your brain just shuts off until you wake up the next day. When you wake up the next day you have absolutely no memory of anything you did from 1:00 a.m. until you've woken up. You call your friends and find out how you got home and if anything bad or crazy happened. When everythings okay; you go back to sleep. You've safely survived another black out drunk and from 7:00 p.m. until 1:00 a.m. you had a great time; so you'll do it again.
fran
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FWIW, I do NOT think the majority of these cases are accidents.
There MAY be GHB or a similar type drug being ingested by these victims, but again, I do NOT think the majority of those who did take GHB would have taken it voluntarily. IMO, that's why there's a few bar tender victims. JMO
Young college guys leaving bars alone late at night doesn't just happen in these states. There are a number of colleges, thus college students, located throughout the United States close to water. Many of these other areas get snow, cold water, just like mentioned here. THIS does not happen in every state with cold weather and water. Why?
Over the course of time, the locations of these incidents has spread. Why?
I believe some of these cases are isolated incidents. But, LE, even in the isolated incidents, were too quick to write it off to a drunk guy doing something stupid.
IMO, it's no coincidence that a number of guys in the southern states disappeared without a trace. One after the other, after the other, does not just leave his car parked and walk into the night never to be seen again.
IMO, it's not a coincidence that a number of these guys disappeared (especially in Illinois, and most specifically Chicago), close to a hotel, bus station, or public transportation. Either to later be found floating in the river or disappear without a trace. Over and over and over again.
Guys just don't disappear from the middle of a bar (where he's with friends) and end up in a river or disappear without a trace. Over and over and over and over.
Guys don't walk from one dorm to the next, only to end up in a campus retention pond or close by pool or river. Over and over and over and over and over again.
College students do commit suicide. They are under their own pressure. But, a suicide generally leaves specifics behind. There are but a few of these cases that could possibly be suicide, imo. The rest,.........over and over and over and over and over,...........????
There is no coincidence when it comes to murder.
A perfect crime is when no one knows there was a crime. (fwiw, I got that bit of wisdom from our infamous Midnight poster during the Lacy Peterson case. You all know who that was)
I only hope someone listens to these two detectives. I only hope the federal government gets involved and centralizes the case history information and looks deeper into this matter.
IMO, there is someone or most likely more than one or two persons doing this to these young men. With all the resources available, with all the first hand knowledge of each individual case, this can be solved.
JMHO
fran
There MAY be GHB or a similar type drug being ingested by these victims, but again, I do NOT think the majority of those who did take GHB would have taken it voluntarily. IMO, that's why there's a few bar tender victims. JMO
Young college guys leaving bars alone late at night doesn't just happen in these states. There are a number of colleges, thus college students, located throughout the United States close to water. Many of these other areas get snow, cold water, just like mentioned here. THIS does not happen in every state with cold weather and water. Why?
Over the course of time, the locations of these incidents has spread. Why?
I believe some of these cases are isolated incidents. But, LE, even in the isolated incidents, were too quick to write it off to a drunk guy doing something stupid.
IMO, it's no coincidence that a number of guys in the southern states disappeared without a trace. One after the other, after the other, does not just leave his car parked and walk into the night never to be seen again.
IMO, it's not a coincidence that a number of these guys disappeared (especially in Illinois, and most specifically Chicago), close to a hotel, bus station, or public transportation. Either to later be found floating in the river or disappear without a trace. Over and over and over again.
Guys just don't disappear from the middle of a bar (where he's with friends) and end up in a river or disappear without a trace. Over and over and over and over.
Guys don't walk from one dorm to the next, only to end up in a campus retention pond or close by pool or river. Over and over and over and over and over again.
College students do commit suicide. They are under their own pressure. But, a suicide generally leaves specifics behind. There are but a few of these cases that could possibly be suicide, imo. The rest,.........over and over and over and over and over,...........????
There is no coincidence when it comes to murder.
A perfect crime is when no one knows there was a crime. (fwiw, I got that bit of wisdom from our infamous Midnight poster during the Lacy Peterson case. You all know who that was)
I only hope someone listens to these two detectives. I only hope the federal government gets involved and centralizes the case history information and looks deeper into this matter.
IMO, there is someone or most likely more than one or two persons doing this to these young men. With all the resources available, with all the first hand knowledge of each individual case, this can be solved.
JMHO
fran
Fran; you guys might end up being right and there might be a group of people; or groups; killing some kids. And you did a great job with all the organized web pages of each year, but the internet doesn't seem to have info from 1960 to 1995 in regards to accidentally drowning deaths and that's really the comparison neede because if it hasn't changed in 30 years; then there is no mystery at all. For now, the other 12 "symbols" remain a secret and Gannon continues to not even show a picture of Sinsinawa; so why believe him? He might be a nice guy, but he also might be wrong. Isn't it possible he has a good heart, but went broke investigating a dead end? And what if he recovers all his lost money with 1 profitable case from his new internet business and never even releases the other 12 symbols. Then what? You refer to Gannon and Duarte as detectives and you say you hope the federal government will get involved; but Duarte IS the federal government; as he's a Homeland Security supervisor and it appears that even Homeland Security isn't interested. And doesn't it bother you to find out Duarte is currently a Homeland Security supervisor? Seeing as the death rate in Wisconsin hasn't changed in 30 years for college males who accidentally drown; is there really a mystery in Wisconsin? And if the same stats haven't changed throughout America and each year for the past 30 years; 5 or 6 college aged men accidentally drown; what's the mystery?
fran
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The only thing I can think of is the reason there's not information prior to '94 is because of the internet. That was around the time the internet really took off and news agencies started putting their info there. It does bother me I don't know what the statistics were prior to then, but then I'm not LE and have no inside information.
I wish I did know what the 'other symbols' were, it might help me with my own personal idea. FWIW, I've thought this was 'murder' way back in '03 or '04. So, what these detectives have said doesn't matter as far as I personally go. EXCEPT, I'm NOT the only one that sees something sinister here. They say they have proof. Good. I've waited this long. More time isn't going to bother me, but,...........how many more victims will there be?
I've taken these cases I mentioned earlier in this thread and placed them on the timeline thread. Look at those cases in a running visual. Seriously look at them. '94 there's one, '95 none, '96 one possible, maybe two counting July, '97 one maybe two, then 97-98 school year it starts to almost explode, calms down and then ....................07 and 08 are almost in a frenzy. Seriously, look at it.
There's a reason the # of cases have been gradually increasing. There's a reason the number of states involved has been increasing too. IMO, there's a reason why some 'disappear without a trace,' and some 'drowned.' I'd love to know what the detectives know. I'd like to see if it's what I personally think.
It doesn't bother me what the two detectives do now nor what they're going to do in the future. I just wish someone with authority would look at these cases, case by case, realllllyyyy look at them, not as a 'drunk college student doing something stupid,' but as IF there was a possible crime and see what they can come up with.
I'm not LE, never been, just my personal common sense tells me these are not coincidences that happen over and over and over and over and over. Once, twice, three times, not 100 or 200 times in JUST specific areas. No,....I'm not buyin' it.
JMHO
fran
I wish I did know what the 'other symbols' were, it might help me with my own personal idea. FWIW, I've thought this was 'murder' way back in '03 or '04. So, what these detectives have said doesn't matter as far as I personally go. EXCEPT, I'm NOT the only one that sees something sinister here. They say they have proof. Good. I've waited this long. More time isn't going to bother me, but,...........how many more victims will there be?
I've taken these cases I mentioned earlier in this thread and placed them on the timeline thread. Look at those cases in a running visual. Seriously look at them. '94 there's one, '95 none, '96 one possible, maybe two counting July, '97 one maybe two, then 97-98 school year it starts to almost explode, calms down and then ....................07 and 08 are almost in a frenzy. Seriously, look at it.
There's a reason the # of cases have been gradually increasing. There's a reason the number of states involved has been increasing too. IMO, there's a reason why some 'disappear without a trace,' and some 'drowned.' I'd love to know what the detectives know. I'd like to see if it's what I personally think.
It doesn't bother me what the two detectives do now nor what they're going to do in the future. I just wish someone with authority would look at these cases, case by case, realllllyyyy look at them, not as a 'drunk college student doing something stupid,' but as IF there was a possible crime and see what they can come up with.
I'm not LE, never been, just my personal common sense tells me these are not coincidences that happen over and over and over and over and over. Once, twice, three times, not 100 or 200 times in JUST specific areas. No,....I'm not buyin' it.
JMHO
fran
Blink34
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Fran-
is what you think personally about why some drown and some are never found along these lines:
I believe that the ones that are not found were scenarios where things went awry, and the markings on the victim might have given them away.
I also think that those found in their cars are relevant.
You've done a great job with your data, impeccable. Your posts always based on research and known fact, I look forward to them :blowkiss:
is what you think personally about why some drown and some are never found along these lines:
I believe that the ones that are not found were scenarios where things went awry, and the markings on the victim might have given them away.
I also think that those found in their cars are relevant.
You've done a great job with your data, impeccable. Your posts always based on research and known fact, I look forward to them :blowkiss:
luthersmama
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I agree. I spent an embarrassing amount of time yesterday hunting drowning statistics. The one useful thing that I kept running across is that the VAST majority of young adults who drown are men. This is true worldwide and has been true for decades.
I think that what we are seeing is a perceived increase in drownings among a particular population (white male college students) when the reality is that the number of drownings in that group is the same - the difference is in 24/7 news coverage, including articles from local newspapers and television stations that were never indexed anywhere before the internet. Everybody here has heard of Willy Jacobsen. In 1978 when I was living in Ithaca a couple of students died every year, often by drowning. It would be very difficult now to identify who those guys were and what the circumstances were unless you were to go to the online archives of the college newspaper or the paper archives of the Ithaca Journal.
Same with stranger abductions of children. We perceive that it happens more often now than it did 20 years ago, but the rate has actually remained steady. It is the saturation of news that creates this perception.
Minority men drown at a higher rate than white men, but, to be blunt, the news media cares more about high-achieving white college boys than they do about regular folks. There is a perfect example of this on the front page of the Philadelphia Inquirer today. A college graduate about to start teaching math in the public schools was gunned down last night and he is front page news. The two black guys that were shot in different parts of the city are only mentioned in the police blotter.
fran
Former Member
I do think those NOT found would have markings on them, indicating a crime. I'm not so sure that the markings would have been the result of something going 'awry,' but more in lines of 'intentional.'
I also believe they're not killed immediately. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure all the drowned young men were killed right away either. Some were found days after in an area that had been previously searched. It's always dismissed as the body must have been hiding under debris or whatever. I'm not sure I believe that, or at least in all the cases where the body showed up in an area previously searched.
I'm not sure about the few found in their cars. Perhaps that was just the MO of the particular member of the group who committed the alleged crime.
Thanks for the compliment, but I'm not saying ALL the mentioned cases are connected TOGETHER. I do believe that many of them are and more in particular in certain areas they are connected to each other. You just need to study the pattern and the circumstances of each case (where it is available).
IMO, I feel that LE is just too quick to dismiss each case as 'accidental.' I know LE is stretched, but hey, this is their job. To protect and serve. Just because these are smart, good looking, accomplished individuals, doesn't mean they don't need 'protection.' To me, it's evident they do.
JMHO
fran
PS.....I'd just like to say that there may be a date here or there that I may have gotten incorrect. It's difficult to find much about some of these cases and some have different dates and locations.......fran
Blink34
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Fran-
I agree with you that not all of these cases are linked. I further agree that all these cases need to be reviewed on their individual merits with a fresh set of eyes. This is not a critisicm, but it's the equivalent of asking my husband is something makes me look fat- as if?
Objective investigation and standard MP protocal is necessary, imo.
I agree with you that not all of these cases are linked. I further agree that all these cases need to be reviewed on their individual merits with a fresh set of eyes. This is not a critisicm, but it's the equivalent of asking my husband is something makes me look fat- as if?
Objective investigation and standard MP protocal is necessary, imo.
Fran, I'd have to look closer at your timelines and see if your early years before 1997 are complete because that iis odd; the big bump higher in 1997. Where do you get your timelines of 1994-1997? Is it possible there were just as many before 1997 but they aren't available on the internet? If not then you make a very valid point that something in 1997 seems to have changed the numbers; although the Wisconsin have been about the same for 30 years. I do emphasize hypothermia though because its such a fast death in the cold water states; especially Minnesota and Wisconsin which account for about half of Gannons 40 cases. From a website you can see death in cold water can be just minutes if a drunk kid stumbles in: http://www.enter.net/~skimmer/coldwater.html
What happens in cold water? Cold water removes heat from the body 25 times faster than cold air. About 50% of that heat loss occurs through the head. Physical activity such as swimming, or other struggling in the water increases heat loss. Survival time can be reduced to minutes. Strong swimmers have died before swimming 100 yards in cold water. In water under 40 degrees F, victims have died before swimming 100 feet.
Cold Shock
- Without a life jacket, a victim may inhale while under water (involuntary gasping reflex) and drown without coming back to the surface. This can only be prevented by wearing a life jacket at all times on the water in the off-season. There is no second chance.
- Exposure of the head and chest to cold water causes sudden increases in heart rate and blood pressure that may result in cardiac arrest.
- Other responses to cold water immersion result in immediate loss of consciousness and drowning.
fran
Former Member
Don't be embarrassed about the amount of time you spent hunting down drowning statistics, that's your j o b. WebSLEUTH, LOL.
I agree that there may NOT be an increase of male drowings overall, and I know that overall there's more males drown than females. That's not in dispute here, I don't believe. What's disturbing about these cases is the 'unexplained' portion of each case. Out drinking with friends, last seen either in a bar, party, in front of a bar or party, walking with friends and next thing you know they're gone, walking home late at night 'alone,' only to be found in a river, retention pond, pool, disappear without a trace, for just no darn good reason.
The majority were NOT suicidal. SOME were not even drinking. SOME had a small amount to drink. Some had just a block or two to walk. SOME disappeared from their own college campus and were found blocks and some times miles away, out of their way.
SOME, to be quite frank, were just to darn drunk to have drowned. IE...meaning they were just too drunk to have even gotten to the area to have put themselves in that position, like walking across four to eight lanes of highway to the river's edge.
SOME made incoherent last phone calls.
SOME made last phone calls that they were being persued.
SOME made last phone calls saying they'd be home in 10 minutes and ended up miles away in a river or lake.
SOME made last phone calls that were disconnected.
SOME were seen with 'strangers,' and later found drowned.
SOME, just ended up drowned with absolutely 'no explanation' other than they drowned and it was accidental. Not even an explantion of WHY they were at the river.
SOME disappeared but their car was found. One car accident. Car problems. No problem. Just car located and victim disappeared without a trace. THE END
There are a few of these cases I truly believe are isolated incidents. Like one of the latest students 'missing,' Brandon Swanson, I believe he tripped and fell into an unknown sink-hole or something. IF you read his dad's account of what he said just before the phone went dead, that's what I believe for HIS case only, for now.
SOME of these could have been foul play with whoever was with them.
SOME could be foul play with, say a bouncer at the bar, a local LE (not saying it is, just what if? and possible), another patron(s) in the bar who were also under the influence and did something.......
I just feel each case should have someone look at them in a collective manner, gather all the information and compare. Maybe do some interviews. Talk to the parents. Try to go through the students computer. etc
Oh, and you're right, there's not enough attention given to minorities. But, that's not necessarily the media's fault. It takes someone connected to the case to keep the victim's picture, story, out there.
Honestly, I could be completely wrong. I don't know what's behind the scenes. Just from my seat, many of these cases look suspicious and not just an 'accident.'
JMHO
fran
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