Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 1

[RR0004]

I haven't decided if I believe GA's account of the last time he saw Caylee or not. I mean, he is just a little too precise on her clothing description for me. I tend to lean that he is merely quoting KC's account of her clothing description and agreeing with her. His slip of watching his favorite "news...I mean food program" has never settled well with me. My next question and one that has never been asked is, which food show is that exactly. I'd love to match up the TV line up for 12:30 to 1:00 just to check.

When I heard LP speak of CA telling him to say she was there that day when she really left the night before, it backed up some of my earlier suspicions. Now, I'm just plain confused. :waitasec: I do believe there is a whole lot more to this 6/15 fight than is being told.

I also hold suspect to the fact that KC says upon being confronted that she hasn't seen Caylee for 31 day, then proceeds to insist June 9 as the day she last saw her. Hello....how about 37ish days!!!

If you go to the earlier general discussion threads you'll see just how much the dates were discussed...so you are not alone.

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by RR0004:

I don't see it.

Don't C what?

 

[RR0004]

Originally posted by RR0004:


Don't C what?

The connection to MBP.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

I wish I could remember the interview where Cindy mentioned that the first time they met Jesse was when Casey gave birth.

Cindy has a very shallow knowledge of Casey's doings for quite a while it seems. I'd bet that Casey kept her friends away from the old homestead because of the fear that her mother would shatter her in front of them.

I have a very strong feeling that the fight on the 15th wasn't the first such episode.

 

[sumbunny]

I don't find that to be so unlikely. I call my daughter's cell phone quite often even though she's right upstairs in her bedroom. It beats hollering up the stairs.

It is unusul when it's a 1500 square foot bungalow..no?

 

[sumbunny]

I wish I could remember the interview where Cindy mentioned that the first time they met Jesse was when Casey gave birth.

Cindy has a very shallow knowledge of Casey's doings for quite a while it seems. I'd bet that Casey kept her friends away from the old homestead because of the fear that her mother would shatter her in front of them.

I have a very strong feeling that the fight on the 15th wasn't the first such episode.

ITA..I don't believe cindy and kc were "best friends" as cindy explained to anyone that would listen.

In fact I do believe cindy warned "any" friend kc had, regarding her poor behaviour, and possible mental health issues.

 

[Verité]

Originally posted by Chilly Willy:

It's difficult for me to believe, after reading the neighbor's tale of the two fights he witnessed, that Cindy choked Casey. I think it was more likely the other way around if it happened at all.

I concur! The lasting image in my mind is of "The Hands" (KC's) during
the 8-14-08 jail visit with parents. It's almost as if The Hands have a life
of their own, expressing unmitigated rage. I noted KC's same struggle at
the last Court hearing when The Hands, seemingly independent of her,
kept rubbing together in a type of compulsive, dry hand washing, not
unlike that of Lady MacBeth trying to expiate guilt.

I suspect The Hands as directly culpable in the last hours of Caylee's life.

 

[reeseeva]

Originally posted by reeseeva:


Would you explain just how you see M by P applicable to this case?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabricated_or_Induced_Illness

Not always induced physical illness, it is emotional as well, & has stood out in my mind from the beginning of this case, with relation to CA's tactics concerning her daughter. JMO

 

[reeseeva]

ITA..I don't believe cindy and kc were "best friends" as cindy explained to anyone that would listen.

In fact I do believe cindy warned "any" friend kc had, regarding her poor behaviour, and possible mental health issues.

:clap::clap:

BINGO!

 

[Friday]

No. I use the, "uh-oh, my battery is dying" excuse.

Ah ha, that one! LOL But that only works when it's established you aren't at home. If they know you're home, you're vulnerable to the dreaded comback: "Oh, do you want to change phones (or plug it in) and call me back?"

I agree with your post though. It's surprising actually that Casey didn't make more attempts to convince people that Caylee was there with her while she was on the phone.

It is rather surprising.

Here's something else I've always wanted to bring up because I sense it offers a morsel of additional psychological insight into the KC-CA relationship.

I just don't know how to interpret it, but here it is for everyone's consideration and input: On July 15th, at Tony's apartment, when Cindy ordered KC to get her things and come with her, why did KC obey the command to leave with her?

KC surely knew what was ultimately in store for her if she went with Cindy and of course she also knew Caylee was dead. We've all witnessed how ruthlessly, mean, and ferociously defiant KC can be to Cindy (and LE for that matter.)

In view of the above, why did KC let Cindy make her leave Tony's? KC surely knew that she had every legal right to say, "I'm a grown woman, mother, and Caylee is my daughter, not yours. I don't want her around you (and Dad) any more because this is the way you behave. Now, leave before I call the police." And because KC's a crafty "diabolical" liar, she could have added, "I'll let you see Caylee tomorrow afternoon."

And then she could have borrowed or stolen money from Tony and split, or hidden and stalled for weeks while she thought out her strategy or perfected her story. Remember, she still had a couple hundred dollars of Amy's to use for a bus ticket out of town, and once there, she could have landed a job in one day (as a waitress or whatever).

Why do you think that, instead, she chose to let Cindy "lead her to the slaughter" (in KC's view LOL) After all, no one knew better than KC the lengths to which Cindy would go to make Casey bend, or the kind of tactics, Cindy was capable of employing, especially where Caylee's wellbeing was involved.

What do you think the answer to that is? No matter what the answer is, I think it's more relevant than we might have imagined until now. Of course, I'm frequently wrong about nearly everything associated with this case--but what the h*ll, we have the time and the brains to come up with some viable theories. :blowkiss:

 

[Oakley]

I always liked The Sociopath Next Door.

Yes, by Martha Stout. A good read.

 

[Chilly Willy]

Ah ha, that one! LOL But that only works when it's established you aren't at home. If they know you're home, you're vulnerable to the dreaded comback: "Oh, do you want to change phones (or plug it in) and call me back?"



It is rather surprising.

Here's something else I've always wanted to bring up because I sense it offers a morsel of additional psychological insight into the KC-CA relationship.

I just don't know how to interpret it, but here it is for everyone's consideration and input: On July 15th, at Tony's apartment, when Cindy ordered KC to get her things and come with her, why did KC obey the command to leave with her?

KC surely knew what was ultimately in store for her if she went with Cindy and of course she also knew Caylee was dead. We've all witnessed how ruthlessly, mean, and ferociously defiant KC can be to Cindy (and LE for that matter.)

In view of the above, why did KC let Cindy make her leave Tony's? KC surely knew that she had every legal right to say, "I'm a grown woman, mother, and Caylee is my daughter, not yours. I don't want her around you (and Dad) any more because this is the way you behave. Now, leave before I call the police." And because KC's a crafty "diabolical" liar, she could have added, "I'll let you see Caylee tomorrow afternoon."

And then she could have borrowed or stolen money from Tony and split, or hidden and stalled for weeks while she thought out her strategy or perfected her story. Remember, she still had a couple hundred dollars of Amy's to use for a bus ticket out of town, and once there, she could have landed a job in one day (as a waitress or whatever).

Why do you think that, instead, she chose to let Cindy "lead her to the slaughter" (in KC's view LOL) After all, no one knew better than KC the lengths to which Cindy would go to make Casey bend, or the kind of tactics, Cindy was capable of employing, especially where Caylee's disappearance was involved.

What do you think the answer to that is? No matter what the answer is, I think it's more relevant than we might have imagined until now. Of course, I'm frequently wrong about nearly everything associated with this case--but what the h*ll, we have the time and the brains to come up with some viable theories. :blowkiss:

Casey was caught between a rock and a hard place. She couldn't refuse to leave and risk having Cindy start spouting off in front of the roommate and Tony that she hadn't seen Caylee in a month. Casey had been telling Tony at different times that Caylee was either home with Cindy or with the nanny.

I think Casey figured she'd be better off to leave with Cindy and try to win her over with a snow job than she'd be to stay there and be busted for certain.

 

[reeseeva]

Friday, I have asked the same question many times citing KC as a lamb being led to slaughter Listening to the 911 tapes, it's the same! That has also perplexed me for some time, given her temperment & for the lengthy period of time she had just spent with AL?:waitasec:

 

[Foxxtrot]

That's a possibility, but in that case I would have expected Caylee to be found wearing PJ's which is probably what Cindy dressed her in after taking her in the pool.

We don't know if the neighbor even has kids or celebrates Father's day. At my house, we might have dinner or just a little get together, or with the kid's now being older we sometimes just get phone calls, but it's not a whole day event like Thanksgiving or Christmas.

Jesse says he heard Caylee's voice on the 16th. The pings show Casey at the house on the 16th. George says Casey and Caylee were there on the 16th. Lee has never said a word about Casey coming to his house on the 15th. George's story HURTS rather than helps Casey's case. No way would George or Cindy tell LP that Cindy forced George to lie. There is also no evidence, contrary to LP's claim, that Casey was at a motel on the night of the 15th. At this point I see no reason to believe that George lied.

I agree with what you said, I have never thought George lied about the 16th. Plus and a big plus, I don't think Cindy would ever tell LP she made George lie. It doesn't make any sense.

 

[OneLostGrl]

If this (Tony) had been the only time Cindy resorted to this behavior I wouldn't take issue with it because of the extreme provocation and stress she was under at the time. But this wasn't the only incident; we already know of several other times she's indulged in this same nasty retaliatory behavior.

In addition to Ryan, Amy, and Tony, there was her contemptuous remark to Jesse when KC was around 18. To paraphrase that one: "Why would you want to marry somebody like her with no future..." IMO, this one is completely inexcuseable and probably unforgiveable in KC's eyes. Jesse must have felt the same way, because he's still thinking and talking about it.

There's no point in our debating this subject because we each have our own standards and restrictions for good parenting. My own included, "Never criticize or belittle your child (or adult child) to or in front of his/her friends. Never."

But that's just me and, hey, I'm no saint. I don't have nearly as much restraint as Cindy did when KC got out on bond and came home. The first night, I'd have hugged her warmly, and sat down to talk quietly to her--until she started feeding me nonsense about a non-existent nanny and tried convincing me that she could only give me "hints" and riddles about what happened. At that point, I would have asked LP and everyone else to leave the house for an hour so that Casey and I could "argue in private."

And then I would have urged her into the bathroom for our "extra privacy"---grabbed her by the hair, and dunked her head in the toilet bowl until I either had full answers to my every question, or else she'd swallowed all the water in the toilet bowl. Or drowned in it.

I kid you not. I really fear that in Cindy's place, I'd have lost it entirely with KC.

He!! yeah! :clap::clap::clap::clap:

And the massive mixed messages that a parent is sending throughout their childs lifetime in these kinds of off balance reactions to situations is what helps CREATE Casey's to begin with.

 

[butwhatif?]

ITA with you Devon & found this description of Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy fits CA?:waitasec: IMHO


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabricated_or_Induced_Illness

If it was a case of MBP there would be a long history of visits to the doctor, hospital, or psych facilities.

I'm confused.Are you saying the proxy was KC or Caylee?

Often we see women with MBP have a medical background, or at least a good understanding of the human body and different toxins, meds etc. Ca is a nurse, but thats about the only bit that would fit. She wasnt dragging KC or Caylee into work each day to be checked over by docs with some mysterious illness. They were both always very healthy from what I have read.
Lee seems to be the only one that spent a significant amount of time in hospital due to his blood disorder(?) when he was younger....the fact that he got so much attention at that time in his life could have contributed to KC's need to be the centre of attention .
I remember reading one book where the mother was giving her daughter matchsticks to suck on, telling her they were lollypops on the way to the docs office. She would tell her daughter all the symptoms she needed to tell the doctor she had, and ended up having countless surgeries, when she was perfectly fine. But her mom wanted the attention from the doctors.... to be praised for being so dedicated to finding the cause of her daughters non existant illness.
Other women take it to the extreme and will smother their child, or inject them with something to induce a fit or unconsiousness. Then they are the hero when they bring them back to life, and get loads of attention and sympathy for being a matyr....always suffering through their childs illnesses and hospitalizations.

And other times they will manipulate their children and families and the doctors into believing they have a serious psychiatric disorder .
But none of these fit what we know of the A family with the facts we have so far.
MOO- based on books I have read, and having a friend who was accused by doctors of harming her young daughter and having MBP. (later to be proven incorrect)

 

[Friday]

Yes...computer usage and Photobucket uploads support this as well.

While I'm thinking of it, we've often discussed KC's tell-tale flurry of phone calls to GA and CA on 6/16, and the popular conclusion seems to be that Caylee had died and KC was frantically calling her parents for help, but neither of them were returning her calls which caused her to ultimately take matters into her own hands.

I've been meaning to ask you if agree with that theory, because I started doubting it from the time I heard KC's taped phone call to 911, where she haughtily demands that LE get over to the house and get rid of the protestors.

On June 16th, if KC actually wanted to talk to Cindy who wasn't answering her calls, KC was fully capable of then calling the main work line at Cindy's office and telling whoever answered to get Cindy to the phone because there had been an accident with Caylee. Ditto for George.

And there's one more thing--we've all seen how annoying ingenious KC is at transfering blame for her situation onto others. In which case, when neither George nor Cindy took her calls, wouldn't KC have triumphantly left them both voicemails telling them why how hard she was trying to reach them "for Caylee's sake?"

What are your thoughts?

 

[Friday]

Casey couldn't bring those new friends home - she couldn't risk having them share stories with Cindy and George. "What do you mean Casey was with you at Fusion last night? I thought she was working a special event for Universal."

That's also very true.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Ah ha, that one! LOL But that only works when it's established you aren't at home. If they know you're home, you're vulnerable to the dreaded comback: "Oh, do you want to change phones (or plug it in) and call me back?"



It is rather surprising.

Here's something else I've always wanted to bring up because I sense it offers a morsel of additional psychological insight into the KC-CA relationship.

I just don't know how to interpret it, but here it is for everyone's consideration and input: On July 15th, at Tony's apartment, when Cindy ordered KC to get her things and come with her, why did KC obey the command to leave with her?

KC surely knew what was ultimately in store for her if she went with Cindy and of course she also knew Caylee was dead. We've all witnessed how ruthlessly, mean, and ferociously defiant KC can be to Cindy (and LE for that matter.)

In view of the above, why did KC let Cindy make her leave Tony's? KC surely knew that she had every legal right to say, "I'm a grown woman, mother, and Caylee is my daughter, not yours. I don't want her around you (and Dad) any more because this is the way you behave. Now, leave before I call the police." And because KC's a crafty "diabolical" liar, she could have added, "I'll let you see Caylee tomorrow afternoon."

And then she could have borrowed or stolen money from Tony and split, or hidden and stalled for weeks while she thought out her strategy or perfected her story. Remember, she still had a couple hundred dollars of Amy's to use for a bus ticket out of town, and once there, she could have landed a job in one day (as a waitress or whatever).

Why do you think that, instead, she chose to let Cindy "lead her to the slaughter" (in KC's view LOL) After all, no one knew better than KC the lengths to which Cindy would go to make Casey bend, or the kind of tactics, Cindy was capable of employing, especially where Caylee's wellbeing was involved.

What do you think the answer to that is? No matter what the answer is, I think it's more relevant than we might have imagined until now. Of course, I'm frequently wrong about nearly everything associated with this case--but what the h*ll, we have the time and the brains to come up with some viable theories. :blowkiss:

I'm sure you have already read my thoughts on Cindy and Casey's relationship. And I have a feeling you have a bit more insight into their relationship then you are letting on :blowkiss:. Cindy is a sick b!tch, IMO- Casey may be the one who eneded up killing her child but Cindy is just as messed up IMO and that is why Casey went running home every time mommy told her to, including that last time. IMO. moo.

 

[Verité]

Re how MBP is applicable to this case:

Originally posted by RR0004:

I don't see it.

I don't either.