Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

[Woe.be.gone]

Snipped.

If you are referring to KC's interview with LE at Universal on July 16, what she actually said was that she could have just left Caylee with her parents if she'd wanted to be free of her. I have not quoted verbatim but that is what she meant, which is entirely different from your interpretation here.

The whole focus of this thread is the tension that was building between CA and KC over Caylee's care.

The phone calls indicate that it had gotten to a point that KC could not just leave Caylee with CA anytime she felt like it. CA had been cracking down on KC to be home more and take care of Caylee herself.

KC said that to stick it to CA and to try to say something logical (but not true).

 

[BondJamesBond]

To consider that the buildup of CA's and KC's power struggles and issues about Caylee's care led to the purposeful killing of Caylee by KC is almost impossible for me to fathom but, I admit, is possible.

*snipped*

You know, Woe, for the longest time I've held onto the idea that Casey just pulled a dumbarse move whilst wanting some Tony-time 6/16PM...and that not being able to get Cindy to care for Caylee was just a contributing factor to her making a very, very bad decision...without thinking about the consequences...simply thinking about the prize.

The focus on the conflicts between Casey & Cindy here on the thread has helped me envision much more clearly what I'm sure many concluded immediately - that Caylee's murder was indeed a spiteful, vindictive act motivated primarily (not secondarily) by Casey inability to work out her relationship issues w/ Cindy.

Watching Casey explode into rage in the jailhouse video...frustrated over Cindy (and George's) talking over her...IMHO, is a glimpse into the relationship that played out on in an escalating fashion between Casey & Cindy...and the emotion it evoked from Casey. Without that video it would be even harder for me to understand how Casey could've taken Caylee's life.

Sooooo...I hafta rethink-my-oft'-rethought theories 'bout what happened 6/16PM. I agree as I believe Jolynna posted - esp. in the Blockbuster video and Fusian pics, Casey looks to be living the "beautiful life" - free from the one thing that Cindy used for almost 3 years to wield her form of control. That kinda 'relief' prolly came as the result of taking out her anger in murdering Caylee. My frame of reference just doesn't cover the range of what Casey was capable of...I guess I've just been searching for an answer that fit my own thinking...not Casey's. I made that mistake in the search for the body too. Saw a brief news story 'bout a man that threw an infant out of a car window yesterday...fighting with the mother he took off in the car w/ the baby in it...tossed the baby out the window to die on the highway :furious: I'm just not capable of understanding that...I can't even find words to describe my feelings...much less think from that POV. I gotta learn that lesson...

 

[Devon]

The whole focus of this thread is the tension that was building between CA and KC over Caylee's care.

The phone calls indicate that it had gotten to a point that KC could not just leave Caylee with CA anytime she felt like it. CA had been cracking down on KC to be home more and take care of Caylee herself.

KC said that to stick it to CA and to try to say something logical (but not true).

With respect, the thread is about a theory that tension was building between them, but since we do not know a) how many fights there actually were, b) who instigated them, c) what the subject matter was, d) when they took place or e) if they were resolved, then any such theory is necessarily based on various assumptions and speculation, as is the case with most theories. Since the information we have covers only a few months in any significant detail, we also have no way of telling whether there was any 'building' of tension during that period or not.

AD states in her interview that when she was with KC (either with or without Caylee), CA was always phoning KC asking where she was/when she was coming home etc., and since AD also states that their friendship had petered out some time in 2007 then clearly this alleged tension is nothing new. In fact much of the testimony from people who have known KC/CA for some time suggests that their relationship has always been volatile, and that the tension about Caylee over time has been as much about KC feeling aggrieved over CA's behaviour/actions as it was about CA's grievances.

It certainly does seem likely that CA was not happy about KC rolling home in the small hours on some occasions, and/or about being left with Caylee during the day on others, but we don't know what was actually said/done about it. It's possible that CA insisted that KC care for Caylee more, but it's equally possible that she didn't. Both CA and GA have stated that they loved having Caylee and doing things for/with her. CA has even said that she would persuade KC to let Caylee stay up past her bedtime so that she could have more time with her, so who knows if CA's alleged complaints about KC were serious and deep-seated enough to have made her actually crack down on KC, or if they were just transient grumbles, when she was feeling especially tired, cross or fed up generally.

As for the question of whether KC could have left Caylee with CA/GA and walked away, are you seriously suggesting that they would not have taken Caylee on? How do you reconcile that assumption with what we know about their feelings and behaviour towards Caylee, and the alleged threats of a custody battle for her? I am convinced that KC did KNOW that she could have walked away. CA and GA may not have been happy about it, they may have found it difficult financially, but IMO they would have kept Caylee for sure, and KC knew it, so I see nothing 'not true' about her statement to LE.

So, back to the fights - clearly there is scope to assume that things were not hunky dory in the A household during the weeks before Caylee's death, but IMO this was nothing new and so of itself not a very convincing catalyst for murder. I believe that if KC really wanted her freedom, all she had to do was pack a bag. If TL would not have taken her in, I'm willing to bet that RM could have been persuaded to, since all evidence suggests that he was a softie who was still chasing her even after she had announced her relationship with TL. If not him, I've no doubt she could have elicited help from others such as ID and JG who were both still standing on the sidelines. Nothing even remotely suggests to me that she would have killed Caylee either for her freedom or to 'stick it' to CA.

 

[essies]

*snipped*

You know, Woe, for the longest time I've held onto the idea that Casey just pulled a dumbarse move whilst wanting some Tony-time 6/16PM...and that not being able to get Cindy to care for Caylee was just a contributing factor to her making a very, very bad decision...without thinking about the consequences...simply thinking about the prize.

The focus on the conflicts between Casey & Cindy here on the thread has helped me envision much more clearly what I'm sure many concluded immediately - that Caylee's murder was indeed a spiteful, vindictive act motivated primarily (not secondarily) by Casey inability to work out her relationship issues w/ Cindy.

Watching Casey explode into rage in the jailhouse video...frustrated over Cindy (and George's) talking over her...IMHO, is a glimpse into the relationship that played out on in an escalating fashion between Casey & Cindy...and the emotion it evoked from Casey. Without that video it would be even harder for me to understand how Casey could've taken Caylee's life.

Sooooo...I hafta rethink-my-oft'-rethought theories 'bout what happened 6/16PM. I agree as I believe Jolynna posted - esp. in the Blockbuster video and Fusian pics, Casey looks to be living the "beautiful life" - free from the one thing that Cindy used for almost 3 years to wield her form of control. That kinda 'relief' prolly came as the result of taking out her anger in murdering Caylee. My frame of reference just doesn't cover the range of what Casey was capable of...I guess I've just been searching for an answer that fit my own thinking...not Casey's. I made that mistake in the search for the body too. Saw a brief news story 'bout a man that threw an infant out of a car window yesterday...fighting with the mother he took off in the car w/ the baby in it...tossed the baby out the window to die on the highway :furious: I'm just not capable of understanding that...I can't even find words to describe my feelings...much less think from that POV. I gotta learn that lesson...

BJB-you are spot on!! You cannot use YOUR frame of reference. It's like trying to fit a square block in a round hole! In KC's case-it's a black hole! The story about the 4 month old baby dying happened very close to me. The father, 21, fought with the mother, 17, during the fight he threw the baby on the concrete and grabbed him up and took off with him in the car. While driving down the highway-he threw the 4 month old out of the car window. A tv cameraman on his way to work saw the baby and called his station-to find out an Amber Alert had just been issued. When the father was brought to the jail later-he had a smug look on his face and when asked about the death of his son he said "It's a dirty game"! That look was frighteningly similar to someone we all know who was wearing a blue hoodie when brought into jail!!

 

[TallyHo]

The whole focus of this thread is the tension that was building between CA and KC over Caylee's care.

The phone calls indicate that it had gotten to a point that KC could not just leave Caylee with CA anytime she felt like it. CA had been cracking down on KC to be home more and take care of Caylee herself.

KC said that to stick it to CA and to try to say something logical (but not true).

If we are right about Cindy cracking down on KC to take care of Caylee herself more, KC could have been thinking something along these lines: "If you (Mom) won't take care of her, I'll fix it so that you never have to do it again!". It's possibly the same vindictive tone as the "I'll take her from you, and then you'll be sorry", but just a little different. Am I dreaming, or did Cindy tell KC that she would call "the child protective people (or however she phrased it) if that's how you want to play" while she was in the car with KC during one of the 911 calls? Something tells me that that was not the first time that had been brought up as a threat from CA.

 

[BondJamesBond]

With respect, the thread is about a theory that tension was building between them, but since we do not know a) how many fights there actually were, b) who instigated them, c) what the subject matter was, d) when they took place or e) if they were resolved, then any such theory is necessarily based on various assumptions and speculation, as is the case with most theories. Since the information we have covers only a few months in any significant detail, we also have no way of telling whether there was any 'building' of tension during that period or not.

AD states in her interview that when she was with KC (either with or without Caylee), CA was always phoning KC asking where she was/when she was coming home etc., and since AD also states that their friendship had petered out some time in 2007 then clearly this alleged tension is nothing new. In fact much of the testimony from people who have known KC/CA for some time suggests that their relationship has always been volatile, and that the tension about Caylee over time has been as much about KC feeling aggrieved over CA's behaviour/actions as it was about CA's grievances.

It certainly does seem likely that CA was not happy about KC rolling home in the small hours on some occasions, and/or about being left with Caylee during the day on others, but we don't know what was actually said/done about it. It's possible that CA insisted that KC care for Caylee more, but it's equally possible that she didn't. Both CA and GA have stated that they loved having Caylee and doing things for/with her. CA has even said that she would persuade KC to let Caylee stay up past her bedtime so that she could have more time with her, so who knows if CA's alleged complaints about KC were serious and deep-seated enough to have made her actually crack down on KC, or if they were just transient grumbles, when she was feeling especially tired, cross or fed up generally.

As for the question of whether KC could have left Caylee with CA/GA and walked away, are you seriously suggesting that they would not have taken Caylee on? How do you reconcile that assumption with what we know about their feelings and behaviour towards Caylee, and the alleged threats of a custody battle for her? I am convinced that KC did KNOW that she could have walked away. CA and GA may not have been happy about it, they may have found it difficult financially, but IMO they would have kept Caylee for sure, and KC knew it, so I see nothing 'not true' about her statement to LE.

So, back to the fights - clearly there is scope to assume that things were not hunky dory in the A household during the weeks before Caylee's death, but IMO this was nothing new and so of itself not a very convincing catalyst for murder. I believe that if KC really wanted her freedom, all she had to do was pack a bag. If TL would not have taken her in, I'm willing to bet that RM could have been persuaded to, since all evidence suggests that he was a softie who was still chasing her even after she had announced her relationship with TL. If not him, I've no doubt she could have elicited help from others such as ID and JG who were both still standing on the sidelines. Nothing even remotely suggests to me that she would have killed Caylee either for her freedom or to 'stick it' to CA.

I couldn't bring myself to snip it - even for space - Devon. So well-written and developed...IMHO your even tone comes right through.

Even though it appears we're coming to different conclusions on the matter, I greatly appreciate your perspective and your ability to offer it so deftly.

Maybe I'm being myopic after having spent so much time on this topic of late. There's certainly much more that we don't know vs. what we do know w/ any certainty - I hafta acknowledge that in my thinking.

I'm still looking @ some things that appear to suggest a change, an escalation in the tension in the relationship:

• Casey taking Caylee away from G&C's overnight in June vs. the rate of this we've been told happened historically
• IIRC, Neigbor accounts give no indication that witnessing verbal exchanges between Casey & Cindy is status quo (acknowledge could be simply an omission)
• Cindy's characterization of Casey to Ryan (pre-missing/murder discovery) as a sociopath

...to counterpoint we could also consider there was an on-going baseline of tension 'tween the two...to add to things you've already listed...

• Account of Casey complaining of Cindy's interference @ Caylee's 2nd B-day party
• Money stolen from Shirley for Caylee's 2nd b-day party

Cindy's 7/3 Myspace epistle - given her frame of mind at the time - also seems to be a source of insight into how the two related. Frustrated over Casey keeping Caylee from her...Cindy goes to a venue that is the digitial equivalent to the town square and shouts...my daughter is diss'in me and here's some dirty laundry on her...."The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space."

So...agree we are simply speculating on the degree of the tensions during June vs. 'typical'.

I guess I've envisioned that Casey took great delight in tweaking Cindy by keeping Caylee from her. Perhaps I read to much into it. Casey can also be seen taking what appears to be considerable joy in seeing Cindy's anguish during their jailhouse visit (*guess I hafta allow Casey could just be happy to see them, eh?) The audio of Casey's call from jail ("What do you mean you don't know what my involvement is?!??") w/ Cindy playing it cool...all has an air of games(wo)manship to me 'bout it.

I'm ramblin' w/o going anywhere in particular...guess just to say I appreciate the well-made point and would value your sharing your thoughts & POV further, Devon.

 

[BondJamesBond]

If we are right about Cindy cracking down on KC to take care of Caylee herself more, KC could have been thinking something along these lines: "If you (Mom) won't take care of her, I'll fix it so that you never have to do it again!". It's possibly the same vindictive tone as the "I'll take her from you, and then you'll be sorry", but just a little different. Am I dreaming, or did Cindy tell KC that she would call "the child protective people (or however she phrased it) if that's how you want to play" while she was in the car with KC during one of the 911 calls? Something tells me that that was not the first time that had been brought up as a threat from CA.

I've been torn over the notion that Cindy might've actually been 'cracking down' more on Casey as June progressed...or...if it was simply Cindy's natural reaction to Casey being gone more....chicken & the egg syndrome IYKWIM.

ITTA...w/ the call child protection threat, etc. IMHO, phrases like, "take custody", "get an apartment if I have to", and, "spiteful biotch", etc. are the kinda things that were hurled out there more than once.

 

[TallyHo]

I've been torn over the notion that Cindy might've actually been 'cracking down' more on Casey as June progressed...or...if it was simply Cindy's natural reaction to Casey being gone more....chicken & the egg syndrome IYKWIM.

ITTA...w/ the call child protection threat, etc. IMHO, phrases like, "take custody", "get an apartment if I have to", and, "spiteful biotch", etc. are the kinda things that were hurled out there more than once.

I found this from the transcript of the first 911 call. Notice who is saying "We'll take Caylee and you'll never..." Wow. I just suspect this was not the first time Cindy made this threat. Not that we'll ever know for sure!

From the 911 call:
Cindyspeaking to Casey Anthony) Because my next thing will be down to child (inaudible) and we'll have a court order to get her. If that's what you want to play, then we'll do it, and you'll never

Casey Anthony: Well, that's not the way I want to (inaudible)

Cindy: Well, then you have --

Casey: Give me one more day.

Cindy: No, I'm not giving you another day. I've given you a month.

 

[Jolynna]

I found this from the transcript of the first 911 call. Notice who is saying "We'll take Caylee and you'll never..." Wow. I just suspect this was not the first time Cindy made this threat. Not that we'll ever know for sure!

From the 911 call:
Cindyspeaking to Casey Anthony) Because my next thing will be down to child (inaudible) and we'll have a court order to get her. If that's what you want to play, then we'll do it, and you'll never

Casey Anthony: Well, that's not the way I want to (inaudible)

Cindy: Well, then you have --

Casey: Give me one more day.

Cindy: No, I'm not giving you another day. I've given you a month.

Great post.

In a nutshell, you've illustrated why Casey would NEVER leave Caylee with her mother.

Rivalry, jealousy, hurt feelings...it's been going on since Cain and Abel.

IMO

 

[essies]

Great post.

In a nutshell, you've illustrated why Casey would NEVER leave Caylee with her mother.

Rivalry, jealousy, hurt feelings...it's been going on since Cain and Abel. IMO

And that resulted in murder too!:furious:

 

[TallyHo]

Good find.

In a nutshell, you've illustrated why Casey would NEVER leave Caylee with her mother.

Rivalry, jealousy, hurt feelings...it's been going on since Cain and Abel.

IMO

Cindy did say in her July 3rd MySpace post that "Jealousy has taken her (Caylee) away". She also wondered in that same post, "Who is now watching out for the little angel?". This implies to me that she did not count on Casey watching out for her, even though Casey was the one who had her. So much for her "Mother of the Year" campaign now. That horse has left the barn.

 

[TallyHo]

:clap: +1 :thumb: :clap:

Methinks Cindy refused to keep Caylee 6/9PM after having Caylee the entire week prior. (I think we'll eventually see Casey wanted to be free 6/10AM for her visit to the OC Clerk's office to deal w/ the traffic citations. George's account of seeing Caylee leave w/ her backpack was of 6/9 not 6/16).

In return, Casey...not so happy 'bout her 6/9 plans being foiled ...began a game of keep-the-Caylee from Cindy 6/10...moreso than ever before. Recall the early account attributed to George reporting a "sighting" of Caylee by friends of the family @ the mall 6/12, IIRC. This later turned out to be Casey, Caylee and Tony hanging flyers. This little nugget is a decent indicator of the mindset G&C were in when they were confronted w/ LE asking about when Caylee went 'missing' (Note: the 6/9 vs. 6/16 debate on another thread here...not wanting to spin off onto that topic on this thread, just referencing how the escalation started).

By 6/15, IMHO, this game was having its intended effect and Cindy called Casey a "spiteful biotch" amidst their argument for doing this.

After that, 6/16, Casey upped the stakes to "teach her a lesson" (see a metaphor for what ZG uttered when she 'took Caylee from her "mother" ' @ JBPark in abduction part deux?)"

Sorry about replying to a post from so long ago, but I am a little late to this party and am playing catch up :crazy:, but something in this post just hit me. In one of her jailhouse visits with George and Cindy, Casey is moaning over the fact that the opportunity had been there for G&C to get her out of jail but they failed to do so. I believe her exact words were, "What exactly am I supposed to learn from this?". This implies to me that part of their prior blow up (whatever day on which it occurred) was Cindy threatening to teach Casey a lesson. And it definitely seems interesting to say the least that Zanny's supposed motivation was to teach Casey a lesson.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Cindy did say in her July 3rd MySpace post that "Jealousy has taken her (Caylee) away". She also wondered in that same post, "Who is now watching out for the little angel?". This implies to me that she did not count on Casey watching out for her, even though Casey was the one who had her. So much for her "Mother of the Year" campaign now. That horse has left the barn.

Excellent observations, TH.

...if I may walk the fine line of being on-topic re: "fights"...

IMHO, it almost seems a natural extension to me....:crystal ball:...Casey will goto trial and JB will say,...[begin dream sequence]...

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury...it was an accident. Caylee died in Cindy's care 6/15 in the swimming pool. A sad, sad tragedy. [long pause for effect] And my client - who is someone's daughter too [JB recycling that line 'cause he needs Casey-tears again ] - Casey, was coerced by her own mother, being choked and threatened physically by Cindy, into living a lie, into doing EVERYTHING possible to give the impression that nothing was wrong - hence the shopping and partying to which you've all borne witness to in pictures presented as evidence by the prosecution...that would have YOU believe that lie too. All the while living through the personal helll of losing her beloved Caylee, Casey was FORCED to buy time for Cindy who disposed of little Caylee's body herself.

[JB showing multiple clips of Cindy in depostions, altercations with protestors at the Hopespring home, etc.]

In a final cry for help, Casey began stealing from her best friend Amy in hopes she would be arrested and ultimately protected from Cindy so she could tell her story in the only place on earth Cindy couldn't harm her...the Orange County Jail.​

This will be the reason JB keeps referring to that it will all come out in the open @ trial.

What other scenario would explain Casey's smugness in her court appearances? Could Casey intend to directly strike the blow to Cindy that she indirectly took by murdering Caylee? - the FINAL punch of the "fight"? I can't think of another scenario that has a better chance of creating reasonable doubt for a jury and setting into motion a potential double-jeopardy situation...:waitasec:

Hence....for several months now...no visits to the jail and Cindy making every attempt to defend Casey in hopes that she can be seen as only racing to Casey's aid...not in threatening her.

Not new, I'm sure.

 

[AZlawyer]

I found this from the transcript of the first 911 call. Notice who is saying "We'll take Caylee and you'll never..." Wow. I just suspect this was not the first time Cindy made this threat. Not that we'll ever know for sure!

From the 911 call:
Cindyspeaking to Casey Anthony) Because my next thing will be down to child (inaudible) and we'll have a court order to get her. If that's what you want to play, then we'll do it, and you'll never

Casey Anthony: Well, that's not the way I want to (inaudible)

Cindy: Well, then you have --

Casey: Give me one more day.

Cindy: No, I'm not giving you another day. I've given you a month.

I think Cindy's threat to take Caylee away from Casey might have set Casey off. The part that bothered me the most about the video of the 8/14/08 jail visit (IIRC, the same one where Casey showed her "evil face") was when Casey said she didn't want to be one of those thousands of parents who live through the horrible "nightmare," the thought that "makes her sick every day," that her child could possibly be "ALIVE AND WITH SOMEONE ELSE"!!!

What??? Your child has been kidnapped and the thought that makes you sick and makes you have nightmares is that she might be ALIVE and with someone else?? Um, wouldn't your child being DEAD be worse than that??

Apparently not for Casey.

 

[TallyHo]

Excellent observations, TH.

...if I may walk the fine line of being on-topic re: "fights"...

IMHO, it almost seems a natural extension to me....:crystal ball:...Casey will goto trial and JB will say,...[begin dream sequence]...

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury...it was an accident. Caylee died in Cindy's care 6/15 in the swimming pool. A sad, sad tragedy. [long pause for effect] And my client - who is someone's daughter too [JB recycling that line 'cause he needs Casey-tears again ] - Casey, was coerced by her own mother, being choked and threatened physically by Cindy, into living a lie, into doing EVERYTHING possible to give the impression that nothing was wrong - hence the shopping and partying to which you've all borne witness to in pictures presented as evidence by the prosecution...that would have YOU believe that lie too. All the while living through the personal helll of losing her beloved Caylee, Casey was FORCED to buy time for Cindy who disposed of little Caylee's body herself.

[JB showing multiple clips of Cindy in depostions, altercations with protestors at the Hopespring home, etc.]

In a final cry for help, Casey began stealing from her best friend Amy in hopes she would be arrested and ultimately protected from Cindy so she could tell her story in the only place on earth Cindy couldn't harm her...the Orange County Jail.​

This will be the reason JB keeps referring to that it will all come out in the open @ trial.

What other scenario would explain Casey's smugness in her court appearances? Could Casey intend to directly strike the blow to Cindy that she indirectly took by murdering Caylee? - the FINAL punch of the "fight"? I can't think of another scenario that has a better chance of creating reasonable doubt for a jury and setting into motion a potential double-jeopardy situation...:waitasec:

Hence....for several months now...no visits to the jail and Cindy making every attempt to defend Casey in hopes that she can be seen as only racing to Casey's aid...not in threatening her.

Not new, I'm sure.

Hilarious! Just imagine the shock on Cindy's face in the courtroom!! Can't you just hear the gum hitting the floor??

 

[BondJamesBond]

Hilarious! Just imagine the shock on Cindy's face in the courtroom!!

Well...TH...by your own evidence, JB will be able to introduce that Cindy was of mind to TAKE Caylee from Casey so that she would never (see her again). Albeit bassackwards 'cause Cindy was talkin' about this 7/15...when there was no longer a Caylee for her to take...

From the 911 call:
Cindyspeaking to Casey Anthony) Because my next thing will be down to child (inaudible) and we'll have a court order to get her. If that's what you want to play, then we'll do it, and you'll never.

*snip*

OK...just playin' around a bit. Back to sleuthin'...

 

[Devon]

I couldn't bring myself to snip it - even for space - Devon. So well-written and developed...IMHO your even tone comes right through.

Even though it appears we're coming to different conclusions on the matter, I greatly appreciate your perspective and your ability to offer it so deftly.

Maybe I'm being myopic after having spent so much time on this topic of late. There's certainly much more that we don't know vs. what we do know w/ any certainty - I hafta acknowledge that in my thinking.

I'm still looking @ some things that appear to suggest a change, an escalation in the tension in the relationship:

• Casey taking Caylee away from G&C's overnight in June vs. the rate of this we've been told happened historically
• IIRC, Neigbor accounts give no indication that witnessing verbal exchanges between Casey & Cindy is status quo (acknowledge could be simply an omission)
• Cindy's characterization of Casey to Ryan (pre-missing/murder discovery) as a sociopath

...to counterpoint we could also consider there was an on-going baseline of tension 'tween the two...to add to things you've already listed...

• Account of Casey complaining of Cindy's interference @ Caylee's 2nd B-day party
• Money stolen from Shirley for Caylee's 2nd b-day party

Cindy's 7/3 Myspace epistle - given her frame of mind at the time - also seems to be a source of insight into how the two related. Frustrated over Casey keeping Caylee from her...Cindy goes to a venue that is the digitial equivalent to the town square and shouts...my daughter is diss'in me and here's some dirty laundry on her...."The daughter who stole money, lots of money, leaves without warning and does not let her mother now speak to the baby that her mother raised, fed, clothed, sheltered, paid her medical bills, etc. Instead tells her friends that her mother is controlling her life and she needs her space."

So...agree we are simply speculating on the degree of the tensions during June vs. 'typical'.

I guess I've envisioned that Casey took great delight in tweaking Cindy by keeping Caylee from her. Perhaps I read to much into it. Casey can also be seen taking what appears to be considerable joy in seeing Cindy's anguish during their jailhouse visit (*guess I hafta allow Casey could just be happy to see them, eh?) The audio of Casey's call from jail ("What do you mean you don't know what my involvement is?!??") w/ Cindy playing it cool...all has an air of games(wo)manship to me 'bout it.

I'm ramblin' w/o going anywhere in particular...guess just to say I appreciate the well-made point and would value your sharing your thoughts & POV further, Devon.

Thank you Bond, and especially thank you for not suggesting that I must be either blind, stupid or 'pro-defence' since I clearly do not see much of what is so 'obvious' to many others. E.g., I've watched the 'rage' jail video many times over, but only see a show of frustration. Whether the frustration is genuine or feigned, and whether or not her reaction is considered appropriate/proper/reasonable etc., try as I might, I just can't convert that childish little show of pique into anything I can equate with my understanding of rage!

Similarly, I am mystified as to how anyone can determine KC's 'demeanour' from some grainy footage from a CCTV at Blockbuster. I see her standing, walking around and then at one point leaning into TL with her arm around him. What I don't see is what she is thinking or feeling, but if anyone can help me out with some facts on these matters, I'd sure be grateful.

The point is that we can all assume, speculate, conjecture and theorise until the cows come home, with the end result being largely determined by our starting point. If we want the facts and evidence to fit our preferred theories, they can be spun in various ways until they do, and we can just ignore what doesn't suit our purpose. Most people, it seems, have chosen to have as their starting point the assumption that KC did deliberately kill Caylee. Much of what we know can be moulded to fit that assumption quite convincingly, but there is also so much that does not. I have chosen to start with no preconceptions and to look at all of the evidence as objectively as possible.

If I see clear evidence that there was something particularly different about KC's life during the weeks/months leading up to Caylee's death, I will certainly allow for that in my reasoning, but as yet I haven't been convinced of any major shift. Just as one example, if KC is really a person who can be consumed with jealousy to the point where she would commit murder out of spite, what greater blow to her ego can there have been than forming the belief (rightly or wrongly) that the boy she was thinking of marrying and settling done with actually loved her baby more than he did her? What better time to have Caylee 'abducted by an unknown person'? But no, she ditched JG but kept Caylee! Or how about the time that AD has mentioned, when KC was apparently feeling immense pressure and talked about needing to be hospitalised. If she really was feeling that way (and possibly due to CA breathing down her neck/criticising/nagging) wouldn't that be enough to push a cold indifferent sociopathic mother into 'removing' the cause of her problems?

So, my point is, what's so significant/different about any fights/conflict alleged to have taken place just before Caylee's death? What new threat or trigger would have pushed KC over the edge? IMO, she most likely had heard it all, lived it all, and manipulated, lied or cajoled her way out of it all, many times before. Deception, dishonesty, criticism, nagging, threats, rows, jealousy, restrictions, pressure, frustration, anger, control, retaliation, tears, cursing, compromise, resentment etc. etc. etc. IMO, all these behaviours and emotions and more were par for the course at Casa A. and had been for a very long time. Oops! Speculation again, but it's such a versatile little tool isn't it? :trout:

 

[BondJamesBond]

So, my point is, what's so significant/different about any fights/conflict alleged to have taken place just before Caylee's death? What new threat or trigger would have pushed KC over the edge? IMO, she most likely had heard it all, lived it all, and manipulated, lied or cajoled her way out of it all, many times before. Deception, dishonesty, criticism, nagging, threats, rows, jealousy, restrictions, pressure, frustration, anger, control, retaliation, tears, cursing, compromise, resentment etc. etc. etc. IMO, all these behaviours and emotions and more were par for the course at Casa A. and had been for a very long time. Oops! Speculation again, but it's such a versatile little tool isn't it? :trout:

*Hard for me to do it...but snipped for space *

Thanks for taking the time to hammer that out, Devon. Much appreciated! I think we have to allow that everyone has a different standard to which they hold up the information we've received, as well as, to the extent they're willing to reserve judgement. Personally, IMHO, on a forum like this we all benefit from the range we see (well...maybe not so much from the 'she's a witch! burn her! crowd ython:, but, I'll be the first to admit I've cast a few stones here & there too...so I can't say I haven't been amongst 'em ) Over time I'm sure the other end of the spectrum ... well..maybe just this side of the folks that might've championed a Caylee-spontaneously-combusted scenario...has been beaten' into submission on the forum. I guess that's to be expected.

Thought-provoking points re: some of the historical crises Casey faced w/o a similar outcome (albeit a one-strike deal) :waitasec:. The detail that may have made this time different - (nod to your impartiality) - may well be beyond our ever knowing.

Stepping back into less-neutral now...the choice for body disposal locations - when sooooo many other options were afforded to her by the 31+/- days, and further acknowledging apparent statistics that support it not being out of the norm for fillicide (IIRC)...that disposal location choice just baffles me to no end. :banghead: That choice pushes me to accept the 10-minute-@-a-time Casey characterization...which further pushes down the Casey-made-a-spur-o-the-moment-dumbarse-mistake path.

Meanwhile, Casey's pre-Tony L. comments to Tony R. 'bout a 15-day vacation that was set to end 6/15...her comments to same 'bout making choices to be more focused on "numero uno", and apparently some almost manic Facebook status messages (we've yet to or may never see) at the same time...not to mention the take-Caylee-from-Cindy game that I think even you might agree was new...these...these all push me toward something more planned...more sinister.

I guess if I wanted to play devil's advocate for awhile I could try to sleuth out what would prove Cindy's innocence. And before anyone jumps on it...I know, I know...911 call, etc. etc. Still...if I was looking for something to do...:waitasec:...until the next doc release...but then again...

...and just for good measure here's the word "fight" as a token effort @ staying on-topic :bang:

 

[Devon]

*Hard for me to do it...but snipped for space *

Thanks for taking the time to hammer that out, Devon. Much appreciated! I think we have to allow that everyone has a different standard to which they hold up the information we've received, as well as, to the extent they're willing to reserve judgement. Personally, IMHO, on a forum like this we all benefit from the range we see (well...maybe not so much from the 'she's a witch! burn her! crowd ython:, but, I'll be the first to admit I've cast a few stones here & there too...so cast me amongst 'em )

Thought-provoking points re: some of the historical crises Casey faced w/o a similar outcome (albeit a one-strike deal) :waitasec:. The detail that may have made this time different - (nod to your impartiality) - may well be beyond our ever knowing.

Stepping back into less-neutral now...the choice for body disposal locations - when sooooo many other options were afforded to her by the 31+/- days, and further acknowledging apparent statistics that support it not being out of the norm for fillicide (IIRC)...that disposal locaiton choice just baffles me to no end. :banghead: That choice pushes me to accept the 10-minute-@-a-time Casey characterization...which further pushes down the Casey-made-a-spur-o-the-moment-dumbarse-mistake path.

Meanwhile, Casey's pre-Tony L. comments to Tony R. 'bout a 15-day vacation that was set to end 6/15...her comments to same 'bout making choices to be more focused on "numero uno", and apparently some almost manic Facebook status messages (we've yet to or may never see) at the same time...not to mention the take-Caylee-from-Cindy game that I think even you might agree was new...these...these all push me toward something more planned...more sinister.

I guess if I wanted to play devil's advocate for awhile I could try to sleuth out what would prove Cindy's innocence. And before anyone jumps on it...I know, I know...911 call, etc. etc. Still...if I was looking for something to do...:waitasec:...until the next doc release...

Firstly - love the Monty Python smilie ( a series definitely up there with the Best of British! :uk: ).

IMO KC made a lot of very strange comments to a lot of people, but there's no telling how much was fact and how much was fantasy. She seems to have created her own world, but obviously it all got a bit confusing because there's some statements of hers out there that conflict with each other. :waitasec:

About the disposal site - your guess is as good as mine as to why there, especially as she was no longer living in that area! We could 'speculate' that there was a psychological reason for it, or 'assume' :crazy: that she just dumped the body there because it was convenient. It's all multiple choice really!

About the increased incidences in June of keeping Caylee away from home though, I'm not sure that's accurate since RM has said in one of his interviews that when he and KC were an item, Caylee was there overnight regularly. Since this was during March/April/May (?), then if true it means that Caylee's over-nighters had actually decreased by June. KC was with TL then, and only stayed over at RM's with Caylee a couple of times more. I haven't seen any evidence that Caylee was kept away from CA during the day in June any more frequently than before either, except of course for the days after June 16, when we now know where Caylee really was!

 

[ibyoungr]

Excellent observations, TH.

...if I may walk the fine line of being on-topic re: "fights"...

IMHO, it almost seems a natural extension to me....:crystal ball:...Casey will goto trial and JB will say,...[begin dream sequence]...

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury...it was an accident. Caylee died in Cindy's care 6/15 in the swimming pool. A sad, sad tragedy. [long pause for effect] And my client - who is someone's daughter too [JB recycling that line 'cause he needs Casey-tears again ] - Casey, was coerced by her own mother, being choked and threatened physically by Cindy, into living a lie, into doing EVERYTHING possible to give the impression that nothing was wrong - hence the shopping and partying to which you've all borne witness to in pictures presented as evidence by the prosecution...that would have YOU believe that lie too. All the while living through the personal helll of losing her beloved Caylee, Casey was FORCED to buy time for Cindy who disposed of little Caylee's body herself.

[JB showing multiple clips of Cindy in depostions, altercations with protestors at the Hopespring home, etc.]

In a final cry for help, Casey began stealing from her best friend Amy in hopes she would be arrested and ultimately protected from Cindy so she could tell her story in the only place on earth Cindy couldn't harm her...the Orange County Jail.​

This will be the reason JB keeps referring to that it will all come out in the open @ trial.

What other scenario would explain Casey's smugness in her court appearances? Could Casey intend to directly strike the blow to Cindy that she indirectly took by murdering Caylee? - the FINAL punch of the "fight"? I can't think of another scenario that has a better chance of creating reasonable doubt for a jury and setting into motion a potential double-jeopardy situation...:waitasec:

Hence....for several months now...no visits to the jail and Cindy making every attempt to defend Casey in hopes that she can be seen as only racing to Casey's aid...not in threatening her.

Not new, I'm sure.

Very well written and said, BJB! :clap:
I have thought this exactly the story "that all would come out at trial."