Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

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I agree. also corroborates KC's statement to LA "...because I'm a spiteful b*tch".

...but WHAT do you think the fight was about?

I think the fight was about money and custody. Cindy threatened KC for the last time about going to get custody of Caylee and meant it. Probably told her that instead of going to work the next day, Cindy was heading to a lawyer.

I think KC said something vile like "I'd rather see my daughter dead than with you..." and Cindy jumped on her and choked her.

To me, I just cannot see what KC could have said that was so horrible for Cindy to ever consider reacting that way. That's the only thing that comes to my mind.
 
curious to my theory. WHEN did Cindy talk to a co-worker about wanting to get custody of Caylee? I am assuming it was long before Caylee went missing. And I also believe it was a continual threat made in that home.

Gosh that poor child and the things she must have overheard between grandma & mom. :(
 
People argue differently at different times. Sometimes I see folks who are mad who call, call, call, ad infinitum...and other times the same person doesn't call and takes the "silent treatment" approach...

When it comes to Cindy and Casey, I think they fought a lot, and I think they played little mind games with each other (for starters - don't even get me started on the strangling business.)

Following up on the storm's-a-brewing theory ... I have a feeling that when Cindy and Caylee left for Mt. Dora that morning, Casey had agreed that she'd be home by such-and-such a time, ergo when CIndy arrived home and found no Casey, she called and left a message. Her not calling and calling over and over doesn't really mean anything to me - she's likely gotten used to Casey's habits and could've known that to continue calling wouldn't do any good...or maybe she was now so angry about the $$ issues that she's now beyond what time Casey arrived home and is so angry she's just waiting for Casey to arrive home...

Maybe when Casey called Cindy at 5 p.m. w/o checking her voice mail (*Casey probably assumed Cindy's voice message was only a call to get her butt hoime, which she'd ignored,) but then Casey got a big surprise when she found out that CIndy had moved WAAAY beyond Casey not being home and the focus of the anger was the $$. The 3 minute convo was long enough for Cindy to have started in on Casey...and Cindy may have felt she'd put the fear of God into Casey - she may have hung up on Casey for all we know...

Then Casey calls around 7 p.m. to say she's now on her way, and Cindy says we'll talk when you get here...

Casey arrives home and who knows why they don't get into it upon arrival. I'm assuming they weren't fighting while Casey's busy texting...but I have to say, Casey's ability to disengage when her mother was frantically calling 911 has me wondering if, at times, Casey didn't just sit there while Cindy ranted at her, nod her head, or look away, and text away...

makes good sense to me.


let's not forget, KC knew that stolen $ was going to be discovered and bite her in the arse sooner or later, so even if it wasn't discussed during the 3 min. call, she knew there was a possibility CA knew about it since she had just left visiting with SP. i'm surprised that CA had the self-control to hold off confronting her until Caylee was asleep.


afterthought - somewhere in this timeline CA was playing in the pool with Caylee... guess KC was texting since it was "too cold" to join them in the pool.
 
Wonderful job of sleuthing guys & gals!
I'd like to put out there some thoughts that enter my mind for all to chew on:

**I think KC and TL were busy doing their own thing, maybe at the apt pool or in his bedroom, whatever, and she either ignored CA's 3:30pm "We're home VM" or wasn't aware of that call.

**She returns the call a little after 5 to say "yah, yah, I'll be home in a little while" - I can see this adding a spark to CA's storm a brew'n.

**I would think that CA didn't pursue heavy attempts at getting KC home as she went swimming with Caylee, probably fed her a lite supper and then bathed her. As she's doing all these "mommy is supposed to-do's, she may be getting a little more unenchanted with KC and her lack of effort to care for the baby. SHe has to do everything!

**During the heavy texting to TL and AH after her arrival home, I would think she could have been laying down with Caylee in her room to calm her and get her to sleep.

**After Caylee is asleep the "big fight" ensues. For starters, "you're a bad mother", I might as well take custody of Caylee, and "oh yeah, What's this about all the money you've been stealing from your grandparents?!!"

I know if KC gave me any of the lip I've heard her say to her folks, I'd want to engage in an aggressive action involving her neck.

I think the fight started with CA's dissatisfaction in KC's parenting or lack thereof and escalated into much more as both parties were probably bringing out all the cards on each other from past and present.

Sorry to babble - just wanted to share some thoughts - Thanx!
 
For reference the "Details Emerge Casey/Cindy Fight" Part I thread is located here. Also worth noting per JBean's closing post on that thread that Part I was closed due to some "personal attacks". Soo...hoping everyone can stay on their best behavior.*

*Sniped for brevity

This is a great post. Thank you so much. This makes it so easy to see how it all went down that night. I really appreciate it.

OK, just checking in to say hi and keep up the great posting.

Tricia
 
I'm thinking it could have been one of those "everything's included" fights. Based on the cell calls, amount of time Casey was on the cell phone after not seeing her daughter all day, I can see Cindy going off about that. Then maybe the fight escalated to include the money theft, sometimes in an argument you may start out arguing one point, but as it becomes more heated you drag in other things to make your point. I believe Cindy's "point" that night was that Casey needs to grow up and mother her daughter...don't blame Cindy a bit for this, she should have done it sooner, IMO.
 
For reference the "Details Emerge Casey/Cindy Fight" Part I thread is located here. Also worth noting per JBean's closing post on that thread that Part I was closed due to some "personal attacks". Soo...hoping everyone can stay on their best behavior.

Maybe this'll be a short one, but, I thought it deserved a follow-up. Worked this out on the Theories Part 5 thread as it pertained to the tension between Cindy & Casey that may have been a key motivator for Casey actions 6/16, and to begin a focused look at whether or not an overnight murder was plausible based on the information we have. Similar analysis done for the morning of 6/16 until Casey left the house here if interested, but, perhaps OT for "the fight" discussion on this thread.

The following will be a re-read for some that encountered it on the Theories or 6/15 Ping thread. I edited it a bit here and re-posted it so it could be snipped/parsed for detailed Q&A.

Sunday, 6/15/08

@ ~9AM Cindy and Caylee left for Mt. Dora (see Conway toll 9:27AM)
Per E-Pass records here

@ ~9AM Casey left G&C's and arrived @ Tony's ~9:15AM.

@ ~3PM Cindy & Caylee returned home to Hopespring. Per E-Pass records (and consistent w/ statements) (see matching Conway toll @ 2:33PM).

@ 3:35PM Cindy called Casey's cell from the Hopespring home phone. Casey let this call roll to vmail, and Cindy left a 36 second vmail.

@ 3:45PM Kyle called Casey's cell phone and Casey let this one roll to vmail also. At no time during this period did Casey interact w/ her phone.

@ 5:06PM, w/o checking vmail, Casey called G&C's Hopespring home phone from her cell phone @ Tony's apt. for a 3 minute conversation, or left a 3minute answering machine message.

...2 hours passed, w/ no activity on Casey's cell...

@ 7:06PM Casey began a text dialogue w/ Tony while she was still near his apartment. The pings from this conversation indicate Casey left Tony's ~7:06PM.

@ 7:10PM Casey already enroute & unprompted, called G&C's Hopespring home phone for a 1 minute conversation or answering machine message.

@ 7:36PM Casey arrived @ G&C's Hopespring home.

...between 7:06PM and 9:26PM Casey was engaged in a continuous texting conversation w/ Tony (and a little w/ Amy). The single greatest lapse between their texts was 11minutes @ 8:56 w/ most of them in the 2 minute range.

@ 9:26PM a period of cell inactivity lasting 39 minutes began (Inactivity Period I) . (IMHO, this seems to be a good candidate for "the fight")

@ 10:06PM Casey ended the cell inactivity when she received a text from Tony by placing a call to Tony and talking w/ him for 10minutes (IMHO, this also would seem to be indicative of the fight having just taken place)

@ 10:25PM the heavy texting between Casey and Tony resumed for the balance of the night...with a 40minute break @ 11PM. "(Inactivity Period II)

Note: WhyamIsoInterested observed this second period of inactivity would've encompassed the time George likely returned home and perhaps Casey spent a few minutes w/ him...being Father's Day... and apparently having not spent much time w/ him that day.

@ 11:44PM Casey called Tony for an 80-minute marathon phone call.

Some other things to consider...

  • IIRC, George was @ work 6/15PM...based on his work schedule he would've been gone or in the process of leaving about the time Cindy & Caylee returned to Hopespring that afternoon.
  • It has been speculated based on Casey's PhotoBucket activity timing (thanks JWG), as well as Casey's cell call durations during this timeframe each day, Caylee's naptime was typically 1-3PM. Since Caylee was @ Shirley's, etc. during her normal naptime, Caylee likely fell asleep in her carseat on the ride back to Hopespring (speculation).
  • Cindy did NOT fire off several calls to Casey to come home. She simply left a vmail. Even when Casey didn't respond there were no add'l calls from Cindy. So, FWIW, it doesn't appear Cindy was anxious/upset w/ Casey about not coming home immediately @ this point.
  • Casey was casual about coming home. She may have seen the missed call# and known about being called from Hopespring, but, she didn't check her vmail. She simply did her own thing for another couple of hours and called when she was on her way home.
  • There appears to be an opportunity for Cindy & Caylee to have gone for a swim after arriving @ Hopespring after Caylee, perhaps, finished her nap. Recall they had eaten @ Shirley's. Dunno if they needed to eat again.
  • By 9:26PM a tired Caylee should've already been in bed asleep. IIRC, C&G have indicated Caylee typically co-slept w/ Casey in her room. With George @ work still, and Lee nowhere around, this would've given the rest of the house to Cindy & Casey to have it out. By this time in the evening it would also seem to be quiet enough in the neighborhood that a shouting match would've been overheard...esp. if they carried it out into the backyard.
  • This scenario would have Casey going into her bedroom (closing the door presumably) with Caylee already asleep after "the fight" if it indeed occurred @ 9:26-10:06PM, perhaps coming out for some time w/ George after he came home from work. Cindy likely went to bed after a long day - having to goto work on Monday morning.

Hoping this paints a clearer picture of the day & the circumstances to support productive discussion regarding "the fight".

Hi Bond,

Wow you should be posting in the Forensic Astrology Forum with details....the astrologers, who are amazing, always need help with specific event times in order to run charts accurately on all the cases...good work
 
Great work everyone!

Why is it assumed that KC was at the Anthony home overnight June15/16. Is there any reason that the same cell tower pings would not cover an area around the Anthony house? If KC stormed out with Caylee, and spent the night parked in the schoolyard, for examole, wouldn't the pings still show from the same tower as the Anthony home?
 
Sounds like an excellent synopsis. However, it opens a new area of speculation about the reason behind the fight. If Cindy were angry about something Caylee had said to her, I can't imagine that she would have had the patience or impulse control to hold off on arguing until Caylee went to sleep. I think she would have hounded Casey until she came home to have it out. This timeline leads me to believe that the argument was about Casey wanting to leave Caylee at G&C's so she could go back to Tony's.

Could be. If I were Cindy and had to go to work early Monday I'd worry KC wouldn't be home in time for me to head to work and not be late. Hence, wanting KC to stay home.
 
This was done so well BJB! Thanks. Do we know what time the neighbors heard the fight?
 
after reading bond's blow by blow account of the events of sunday i no longer think it so likely that the fight was caused by something vital that caylee managed to communicate to cindy that day or any other sole issue cindy felt was of grave importance. we've all seen cindy angry and i just can't imagine cindy standing by while casey texted w/ tony, nor can i see cindy not knocking the phone out of her hand in a fury and demanding her undivided attention if she had something of magnitude to discuss and casey was goofing around w/ the cell. i don't believe cindy would choose to wait (or could even contain herself) a nanosecond longer than was absolutely necessary if she was so angry w/ casey that the following argument culminated in a physical assault. i don't think cindy had anything explosive to face casey w/, i think it was more likely to have been closer to just an average fight in the anthony home, that for whatever reason turned incredibly vicious.
 
I think the fight was about money and custody. Cindy threatened KC for the last time about going to get custody of Caylee and meant it. Probably told her that instead of going to work the next day, Cindy was heading to a lawyer.

I think KC said something vile like "I'd rather see my daughter dead than with you..." and Cindy jumped on her and choked her.

To me, I just cannot see what KC could have said that was so horrible for Cindy to ever consider reacting that way. That's the only thing that comes to my mind.

ITA, it may be why CA decided to lie about the fight to begin with. moo
 
ITA, it may be why CA decided to lie about the fight to begin with. moo

Could be the reason for the whole "dont worry I didnt say anything" remark from KC. CA Could be charged with battery, if KC filed a complaint. "IF" there was an incident, they both agreed to cover it up.
 
I thought maybe "The fight" might have been about KC stealing $ from SP or CA's Dad (dunno his name)? IIRC, I remember hearing SP confronting (maybe asking is a better word) CA about KC stealing from one of their accounts or something to that nature. When CA returned from her trip to see her parents on Father's Day w/ Caylee, it is likely that CA called KC to come home so they could talk about it.

Is this the date SP told CA about the missing money or was it closer to the 8/9th of June? I still feel the fight on the 15th had more to do with something Caylee told CA. Help--please.LOL
 
What neighbor is saying he heard a fight on the 15th? It certainly can't be Brian B because he wasn't even home. He arrived home from vacation on the 16th about 6pm. (docs Pg. 1386) Now maybe he heard the tussle between her and dad over the gas cans. I see no reason to think Cindy was lying saying there was no fight on the 15th.

As for the timing suggested for the alleged fight, the average 2-3 year old sleeps 12 hours a night. My older boys slept up to 15 hours a night and my youngest slept only 9-10 hours at that age. Now, considering Casey was on the phone till 3:30 am and the first check of voice mail was 7:45 I would assume Caylee woke her up after only 4 hours of sleep wanting breakfast. This leads me to believe that she likely was just getting ready and tucked into be about 9:30 pm. That would be 10 hours of sleep. A quick look at her cell usage the days before this looks like Caylee was tucked into bed closer to 9-10pm and woke up about 8-8:30, a reasonable nights sleep. I don't see anything different in the phone usage those previous nights. If she had in fact, had a huge fight at 9:30 and was on the phone right after it isn't very likely she wouldn't have said something to Tony about it and I read nothing in his statement to imply she was upset that night.
 
"I think KC said something vile like 'I'd rather see my daughter dead than with you...' and Cindy jumped on her and choked her." -- respectfully snipped, Pattycake!

When I read this line, I remembered Padilla's words that there is always a thread of truth in KC's lies...chilling.

Just wanted to say what a terrific job with the timeline and such insightful input(s) - I am in awe of y'all!
 
Excellent thread!

First, major kudos to BondJamesBond and others for putting together a comprehensive time line of probable events on June 15, 2008 for the Anthony family.

I think it's highly likely that the fight occurred during the first 29-minute inactivity on Casey's cell phone at 9:26pm.

I think the fight may have started out about one thing - perhaps Casey's failure to take care of Caylee, even when she's at home - Casey more attentive to talking/texting with friends than spending any time with Caylee, and then escalated into other areas of contention. It may have been one of those fights that starts out on one grievance and all other grievances are piled on........the stealing, the unauthorized credit card use, etc.

Cell phone pings after midnight have placed Casey either in or near the Anthony home. I've always thought that after the major fight with Cindy, Casey fled the home with Caylee.

I can see Cindy, tired after a long day and in a state of aggitation after the fight with Casey, retiring to her bedroom or perhaps sitting outside on the patio awaiting George coming home. George probably arrived home shortly after his shift ended at 11:00pm. It's never been stated if George had noted Casey's car in the driveway or had any conversation with Casey after arriving home from work that night. This is something that I hope LE has investigated.

One thing I've noticed is that now that we know the floor plan of the Anthony home - thanks to Hercule Poirot - and know that Casey's bedroom was on the front of the house nearest the front door, while the master bedroom was on the back of the house, how easy it would have been for Casey to slip out the front door un-noticed, unless someone was sitting in the living room area. Also, it would be easy for Casey to simply slip out her bedroom window. So, while Cindy and George may THINK Casey is in her room, she may have actually been gone from the house.

One thing that I'm puzzled about is that Caylee's remains were found without shoes. This suggests the murder happening in the home.

After the fight and after George got home, did Casey slip out of the house and spend most of the night on the cell phone with TonE, and then slip back into the house after Cindy went to work? After being up for most of the night, Casey probably slept for a few hours and then left the home, this time with Caylee. After George left for work, she could have come back home and killed Caylee in the home.
 
curious to my theory. WHEN did Cindy talk to a co-worker about wanting to get custody of Caylee? I am assuming it was long before Caylee went missing. And I also believe it was a continual threat made in that home.

Gosh that poor child and the things she must have overheard between grandma & mom. :(

Bolded----me 2.
 
Snipped for brevity

...between 7:06PM and 9:26PM Casey was engaged in a continuous texting conversation w/ Tony (and a little w/ Amy). The single greatest lapse between their texts was 11minutes @ 8:56 w/ most of them in the 2 minute range.

I'm thinking that 11 minutes entailed KC putting Caylee to bed. Caylee would wake screaming if nobody was in bed with her. This leads me to think that somebody had to lay down with Caylee when she went to sleep. After a whole day with Caylee, I doubt Cindy would have felt like doing this. After a whole day at the nursing home and then a swim, I'd imagine Caylee was pretty tired. 11 minutes sounds good to me for KC to lay down with her until she went to sleep.

This leads into the 39 minute time period at 9:26 for the probable argument when KC is done getting Caylee to sleep, and maybe comes out of the bedroom.

[*]There appears to be an opportunity for Cindy & Caylee to have gone for a swim after arriving @ Hopespring after Caylee, perhaps, finished her nap. Recall they had eaten @ Shirley's. Dunno if they needed to eat again.

Cindy said in her deposition with Morgan & Morgan that the reason she recalled she and Caylee got home about 4pm was because she remembers giving Caylee her dinner.

Cindy's voicemail to KC was at dinner time. Perhaps after a long day out taking care of Caylee, she was irritated that KC didn't respond to the voicemail and come home and feed Caylee herself. Cindy was probably tired, and also probably had to get ready for her workweek.
 
Please remember the original thread on this topic was shut down. We are not tolerating rude name calling, personal attacks, or generally OTT or OT posts so please don't go there.

thanks guys, this is a solid topic that should be discussed.
 
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