Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

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I heard Lee say his mother never choked his sister.
snipped
I heard Lee say he believes Everything his sister says is true too, but then he tells Tony L that she just lies to lie.:crazy:
Personally, I can't put much stock into anything that Lee says.
 
My bold: You are onto something here DP....after a long day visiting ggpa CA would have been exhausted, having taken care of Caylee all day and then there is the money issue to boot, KC ignoring CA's phone call.....CA wanting some time for herself before collapsing in bed and then having to get up early the next day to work.....but noooooooooooo,,, gotta get KC home....gotta deal with this money issue - AGAIN......CA's really gonna let KC have it this time.....storm seems to been a brewin' .....then KC gets home....FINALLY....

yeah.....that combination of events would set me off too.

Exactly! After seeing that crazed look in Cindy's eyes at the deposition I can picture her bony fingers around Casey's neck:eek:
Maybe it wasn't the first time either.
 
I'm not convinced that the confrontation about nabbing from Grandma's account actually occured on the 15th of June. I think it had already occured earlier. June 9th or even earlier than that. If there were any discussions/arguements on the 15th, I think they had already escalated to "custody"/"bad momma" issues that encompassed KC's history and her Narcisistic mother's issues...

MOO

I'm with you!
 
I can only imagine and mentioned in another thread... I believe that Cindy threatened for the last time to obtain custody of Caylee and throw KC's butt out the door. I think (my opinion only) that KC replied in kind telling her mother she'd rather see her daughter dead than Cindy get custody. Thus the choking of KC.

And more than a month later, Cindy spewed out the dead body in the car on 911. She knew her daughter followed through, she knew. Right after the regrettable 911 statement, CA, GA & LA sprung into action that has lead to massive cover up.

my 2cents only people...


I agree. For some reason, I've always believed the fight started over CA confronting KC about the stolen money from grandpa's long term care account, and likely boiled over into other long standing issues. I can totally see CA throwing the custody issue up to KC and KC screaming back at her Caylee would be dead before CA would ever get her. Yes...after the 911 call, Casey-gate began.
 
And Cindy is from Ohio so maybe she too calls it Dinner & Supper. Um, Ohio is close to PA right? Geography was not my best subject in school.

In Texas it was----dinner and supper--------but I am from an older bunch and the youngens always called it-----lunch and dinner. Maybe it is an age group thang.
 
For reference the "Details Emerge Casey/Cindy Fight" Part I thread is located here. Also worth noting per JBean's closing post on that thread that Part I was closed due to some "personal attacks". Soo...hoping everyone can stay on their best behavior.

Maybe this'll be a short one, but, I thought it deserved a follow-up. Worked this out on the Theories Part 5 thread as it pertained to the tension between Cindy & Casey that may have been a key motivator for Casey actions 6/16, and to begin a focused look at whether or not an overnight murder was plausible based on the information we have. Similar analysis done for the morning of 6/16 until Casey left the house here if interested, but, perhaps OT for "the fight" discussion on this thread.

The following will be a re-read for some that encountered it on the Theories or 6/15 Ping thread. I edited it a bit here and re-posted it so it could be snipped/parsed for detailed Q&A.

Sunday, 6/15/08

@ ~9AM Cindy and Caylee left for Mt. Dora (see Conway toll 9:27AM)
Per E-Pass records here

@ ~9AM Casey left G&C's and arrived @ Tony's ~9:15AM.

@ ~3PM Cindy & Caylee returned home to Hopespring. Per E-Pass records (and consistent w/ statements) (see matching Conway toll @ 2:33PM).

@ 3:35PM Cindy called Casey's cell from the Hopespring home phone. Casey let this call roll to vmail, and Cindy left a 36 second vmail.

@ 3:45PM Kyle called Casey's cell phone and Casey let this one roll to vmail also. At no time during this period did Casey interact w/ her phone.

@ 5:06PM, w/o checking vmail, Casey called G&C's Hopespring home phone from her cell phone @ Tony's apt. for a 3 minute conversation, or left a 3minute answering machine message.

...2 hours passed, w/ no activity on Casey's cell...

@ 7:06PM Casey began a text dialogue w/ Tony while she was still near his apartment. The pings from this conversation indicate Casey left Tony's ~7:06PM.

@ 7:10PM Casey already enroute & unprompted, called G&C's Hopespring home phone for a 1 minute conversation or answering machine message.

@ 7:36PM Casey arrived @ G&C's Hopespring home.

...between 7:06PM and 9:26PM Casey was engaged in a continuous texting conversation w/ Tony (and a little w/ Amy). The single greatest lapse between their texts was 11minutes @ 8:56 w/ most of them in the 2 minute range.

@ 9:26PM a period of cell inactivity lasting 39 minutes began (Inactivity Period I) . (IMHO, this seems to be a good candidate for "the fight")

@ 10:06PM Casey ended the cell inactivity when she received a text from Tony by placing a call to Tony and talking w/ him for 10minutes (IMHO, this also would seem to be indicative of the fight having just taken place)

@ 10:25PM the heavy texting between Casey and Tony resumed for the balance of the night...with a 40minute break @ 11PM. "(Inactivity Period II)

Note: WhyamIsoInterested observed this second period of inactivity would've encompassed the time George likely returned home and perhaps Casey spent a few minutes w/ him...being Father's Day... and apparently having not spent much time w/ him that day.

@ 11:44PM Casey called Tony for an 80-minute marathon phone call.

Some other things to consider...

  • IIRC, George was @ work 6/15PM...based on his work schedule he would've been gone or in the process of leaving about the time Cindy & Caylee returned to Hopespring that afternoon.
  • It has been speculated based on Casey's PhotoBucket activity timing (thanks JWG), as well as Casey's cell call durations during this timeframe each day, Caylee's naptime was typically 1-3PM. Since Caylee was @ Shirley's, etc. during her normal naptime, Caylee likely fell asleep in her carseat on the ride back to Hopespring (speculation).
  • Cindy did NOT fire off several calls to Casey to come home. She simply left a vmail. Even when Casey didn't respond there were no add'l calls from Cindy. So, FWIW, it doesn't appear Cindy was anxious/upset w/ Casey about not coming home immediately @ this point.
  • Casey was casual about coming home. She may have seen the missed call# and known about being called from Hopespring, but, she didn't check her vmail. She simply did her own thing for another couple of hours and called when she was on her way home.
  • There appears to be an opportunity for Cindy & Caylee to have gone for a swim after arriving @ Hopespring after Caylee, perhaps, finished her nap. Recall they had eaten @ Shirley's. Dunno if they needed to eat again.
  • By 9:26PM a tired Caylee should've already been in bed asleep. IIRC, C&G have indicated Caylee typically co-slept w/ Casey in her room. With George @ work still, and Lee nowhere around, this would've given the rest of the house to Cindy & Casey to have it out. By this time in the evening it would also seem to be quiet enough in the neighborhood that a shouting match would've been overheard...esp. if they carried it out into the backyard.
  • This scenario would have Casey going into her bedroom (closing the door presumably) with Caylee already asleep after "the fight" if it indeed occurred @ 9:26-10:06PM, perhaps coming out for some time w/ George after he came home from work. Cindy likely went to bed after a long day - having to goto work on Monday morning.

Hoping this paints a clearer picture of the day & the circumstances to support productive discussion regarding "the fight".

Bond,
Thank you so much for this post!:clap::clap::clap:
It IS, without a doubt, one of the most well-written, well-thought out, well-researched posts ever written here. Course I especially love the fact that it does not negate any of my own personal (amateur) theories!
Thank You!:blowkiss:
 
Haven't read through the entire thread yet, so sorry if already mentioned, but when was the fight or confrontation between CA and KC when CA found the ABC party pics on the computer and said to KC "So you were at work, huh?" and threw the picture at her??? Maybe this was the lighting of the powder keg???
 
Something definitely went down in the Anthony home on June 8 or June 9 ..

There is NO way that they ALL mixed up the date ..
Nope ..
Not buying it! :snooty:
 
I think the whole thing is rather questionable. I found the interview where this supposed fight is mentioned by Jesse Grund here: http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0408/19129428.pdf What I find most interesting is that right after the polygraph he was ready to call in an attorney and refuse to talk to them. There was talk of hiding evidence and he said something about them suspecting him. All of this must have been off record. It is in this statement that he goes on to tell the story of the fight and Lee sexually abusing Casey. Sounds rather suspicious to me and I wouldn't simply take his word on all this.

Is there someone else claiming this horrible fight took place? I heard Lee say his mother never choked his sister.

I believe JG originally said he was told about the fight by LA. Was that corroborated by LA also telling AL at some point? I also believe that AL corroborated the molestation accusation KC made regarding LA>

Frankly I think it is very reasonable that JG may have been nervous and even defensive in this interview if this happened after LP had notified him the family was planning on throwing him under the bus. I am sure that for many innocent bystanders, who have had to fear they would be implicated, this has been quite the ordeal.
 
Can you please refer me to the neighbor transcript? And just how trustworthy is Mark Furman? Why is he involved anyway. Has OCSO hired him?

Wasn't Mark F present at the beginning of the case as part of Greta VS' team of reporters? I remember seeing interviews he did with the Anthonys and the press at the end of July - perhaps there are links in the sticky threads. He was not hired by LE that I know of. I don't know if his veracity as a reporter has been verified but I would think that it at least on the level of the Anthonys.
 
Wasn't Mark F present at the beginning of the case as part of Greta VS' team of reporters? I remember seeing interviews he did with the Anthonys and the press at the end of July - perhaps there are links in the sticky threads. He was not hired by LE that I know of. I don't know if his veracity as a reporter has been verified but I would think that it at least on the level of the Anthonys.

Mark F was part of GVS' team. I was just reviewing the video of her tour of the Anthony home on YouTube. He was with her in front of the house.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIu7Ens4WIo
 
The media doesn't always get it right and sometimes publishes inflammatory things, but they also have to be somewhat careful in reporting facts because laws do exist to protect others and they are generally careful not to cross that line.

Although investigative reporters are supposed to cross-reference and verify facts and sources as much as possible, we all know to take things in the media with a grain of salt until corroborated by multiple sources.

However, I don't think the media is under the same constrictions as people involved in a crime investigation who must truthfully testify to LE by law.

And let us not forget that there would have been a lot less of the swirling morass of rumors and wild speculation in this case if the defendant and her entire family did not change their stories as often as the weather. JMHO
 
Thanks so much, BJB, et al, for putting together this timeline. It certainly helps put the day in perspective.

I tend to agree the argument over money occurred prior to the 15th. But it's easy to see how the events that occurred on Father's Day provided fuel for another big argument.

After being out all day, CA and Caylee arrive home at 3-3:30-ish. CA feeds Caylee again. (IIRC she ate only a PBJ sandwich at G'ma's.) Caylee might've napped for awhile afterward. Maybe not. Later, they go for a swim. At any rate, KC strolls in a full four hours later and immediately engages in a two-hour texting conversation with Tony. She doesn't want to swim with CA and Caylee. (I recall CA stating that KC didn't want to swim because it was too cold.) And with only two minutes between texts, she certainly was not attending to Caylee. By 9:26, I imagine CA was fuming, especially if the tart mom was rejecting Caylee's pleas for her attention. Who can blame her. I would've wanted to slap her silly, and I'm sure CA did, too.
 
I agree. For some reason, I've always believed the fight started over CA confronting KC about the stolen money from grandpa's long term care account, and likely boiled over into other long standing issues. I can totally see CA throwing the custody issue up to KC and KC screaming back at her Caylee would be dead before CA would ever get her. Yes...after the 911 call, Casey-gate began.

Yeah. I like THIS theory. We know it started about the theft, because both Rick and LA said so. I can see all the other excrement bubbling up and spewing out.
 
I think the whole thing is rather questionable. I found the interview where this supposed fight is mentioned by Jesse Grund here: http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0408/19129428.pdf What I find most interesting is that right after the polygraph he was ready to call in an attorney and refuse to talk to them. There was talk of hiding evidence and he said something about them suspecting him. All of this must have been off record. It is in this statement that he goes on to tell the story of the fight and Lee sexually abusing Casey. Sounds rather suspicious to me and I wouldn't simply take his word on all this.

Is there someone else claiming this horrible fight took place? I heard Lee say his mother never choked his sister.

Lee is the one who said CA DID choke KC. He said it to LE.

Rick also spoke of the fight, and its cause (the theft). He heard it from their mother, Shirley P.

It took place on the evening of June 15th. Apparently, on that day SP kicked CA's butt about the theft, and CA licked KC's.

In addition, some of the neighbors heard a loud verbal altercation (
 
I think the whole thing is rather questionable. I found the interview where this supposed fight is mentioned by Jesse Grund here: http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0408/19129428.pdf What I find most interesting is that right after the polygraph he was ready to call in an attorney and refuse to talk to them. There was talk of hiding evidence and he said something about them suspecting him. All of this must have been off record. It is in this statement that he goes on to tell the story of the fight and Lee sexually abusing Casey. Sounds rather suspicious to me and I wouldn't simply take his word on all this.

Is there someone else claiming this horrible fight took place? I heard Lee say his mother never choked his sister.

Which polygraph? JG took two of them, over six hours, and passed both.

LE said that JG has been totally cooperative with LE, and that he was entirely cleared. They even told CA that, on tape, when she tried to implicate JG. The tape was aired on NG, and all over the Net.
 
I've just rechecked SP's interview and she states that the theft of the $354 occurred 'this Spring, a few months ago, I don't know, may be three or four months ago'. This interview was conducted on August 21, so even if it was just 3 months earlier that would have been mid May, almost a month before June 15. I can't see CA waiting that long to confront KC about something that clearly angered her greatly.

I'm not convinced there even was a fight on June 15.

Well, it was reported by the neighbors, LE, and Rick Plesea, who heard it from he and CA's Mom.

If the theft happened in May, SP may not have got the account statement until June. It was Mr Plesea's (the granddad's) long-term care account.
 
Snipped

I posted in another thread that I thought I'd read somewhere that CA said she and Caylee got home around 4pm but couldn't remember where I'd read that, so thanks for reminding me. :)

This doesn't quite fit with BJB's estimate using the Epass records as reference, but it's possible she may have stopped at a store somewhere after going through the toll. Or she may be recalling the time inaccurately.

FWIW, I determined the location of the Conway Toll Booth and mapped the driving time on Google to better estimate Cindy & Caylee's departure and arrival times @ Hopespring Dr. Updated the original post w/ the following:

Sunday, 6/15/08

@ ~9:12AM Cindy and Caylee left for Mt. Dora (see Conway toll 9:27AM - 15 mins to toll from G&C's per Google Maps)
Per E-Pass records here

@ ~9AM Casey left G&C's and arrived @ Tony's ~9:15AM.

@ ~2:48PM Cindy & Caylee returned home to Hopespring. Per E-Pass records (and consistent w/ statements) (see matching Conway toll @ 2:33PM + 15 mins to toll from G&C's per Google Maps).
*snipped*

...of course, There could have been stops between the toll booth and G&C's pushing the afternoon arrival time later than estimated. This just gives an estimate based on the information we have to work with to-date.
 
I am from OH (at least until last year when I moved to Atlanta) we call is lunch and dinner.

Where I lived in Indiana, it was lunch and dinner, except on Sunday. THEN it was dinner and supper.
 
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