Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

[hornswoggled]

Hereis the scenario in my head:

I think Cindy finally blew a gasket that night. After visiting with her Mom and being informed of Casey's theft from Grandparents, Cindy was angry and humiliated (this was one thing she couldn't sweep under the rug for Casey). She had to eat crow in front of her Mom for her thieving daughter. So she was in a stew already. When Casey got home what did she do? That d*** texting incessantly. Couldn't even bathe Caylee. Once Cindy had the opportunity, she confronted Casey about the theft.

Then it all came boiling to the surface. The lying, the stealing, the sorry parenting. I think everything came out on that night. I believe Cindy said some pretty degrading things to Casey (which she deserved and then some). I think she threatened her with cutting off credit cards and any support whatsoever, and taking custody of Caylee. I can see Casey ready to grab up Caylee to leave and Cindy grabbing Casey and telling her there is no way she is taking that child to God-knows-where. I could easily see it getting physical on the part of both Cindy and Casey.

I'll bet that when George came rolling in, Cindy told him "Deal with your daughter, because I can't stand to look at her" or something similar. So Casey ends up talking with Dad, and calms down a bit and stays there for the night. She probably slept very little, since she was fixated on Tony. She had to escape this horrible trap. After that, anything goes. Caylee was at that point, just collateral damage.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Lee is the one who said CA DID choke KC. He said it to LE.

Rick also spoke of the fight, and its cause (the theft). He heard it from their mother, Shirley Plesea.

It took place on the evening of the 15th.

In addition, some of the neighbors heard a loud verbal altercation.

And, as posted earlier, Mark F. provided similar information.

OK...let's think 'bout this a second. :hand:

IMHO, since only Casey & Cindy were present....:argue:

...and later...an account surfaced from Lee that Cindy had her hands on Casey's throat...:fight:

...from WHOM do you think that account likely came? :whistle:

:laugh: Cindy!?! :spit: :floorlaugh:

Gee...ya' think?

Naaaaaaah...:shakehead:...IMHO, the genesis of THAT version of the fight is Casey :rage:

 

[Jolynna]

Casey did not tell Amy about the fight. She did not tell Jesse. She did not tell Tony Cindy tried to strangle her so he would rush to her aid to get her out of that awful place. I think the FIRST person Casey told about the fight was Lee when she had to call him after he went trolling the bars trying to find her. She couldn't tell Lee that George was having an affair and George and Cindy were fighting about getting a divorce. Lee knew better.

So Casey said Cindy tried to strangle her.

I don't doubt there was a fight over Casey's lack of mothering skills. Casey, herself, said Cindy said she was a bad mother. I am not sure Cindy tried to strangle Casey. But, she most likely had a list prepared of how Casey "should" be taking care of Caylee. She probably mentioned a different custody arrangement also.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Casey did not tell Amy about the fight. She did not tell Jesse. She did not tell Tony Cindy tried to strangle her so he would rush to her aid to get her out of that awful place. I think the FIRST person Casey told about the fight was Lee when she had to call him after he went trolling the bars trying to find her. She couldn't tell Lee that George was having an affair and George and Cindy were fighting about getting a divorce. Lee knew better.

So Casey said Cindy tried to strangle her.

I don't doubt there was a fight over Casey's lack of mothering skills. Casey, herself, said Cindy said she was a bad mother. I am not sure Cindy tried to strangle Casey. But, she most likely had a list prepared of how Casey "should" be taking care of Caylee. She probably mentioned a different custody arrangement also.

:clap: +1 :thumb: :clap:

Methinks Cindy refused to keep Caylee 6/9PM after having Caylee the entire week prior. (I think we'll eventually see Casey wanted to be free 6/10AM for her visit to the OC Clerk's office to deal w/ the traffic citations. George's account of seeing Caylee leave w/ her backpack was of 6/9 not 6/16).

In return, Casey...not so happy 'bout her 6/9 plans being foiled ...began a game of keep-the-Caylee from Cindy 6/10...moreso than ever before. Recall the early account attributed to George reporting a "sighting" of Caylee by friends of the family @ the mall 6/12, IIRC. This later turned out to be Casey, Caylee and Tony hanging flyers. This little nugget is a decent indicator of the mindset G&C were in when they were confronted w/ LE asking about when Caylee went 'missing' (Note: the 6/9 vs. 6/16 debate on another thread here...not wanting to spin off onto that topic on this thread, just referencing how the escalation started).

By 6/15, IMHO, this game was having its intended effect and Cindy called Casey a "spiteful biotch" amidst their argument for doing this.

After that, 6/16, Casey upped the stakes to "teach her a lesson" (see a metaphor for what ZG uttered when she 'took Caylee from her "mother" ' @ JBPark in abduction part deux?)

On 7/15 when it all goes down we hear Casey utter that maybe she is a "spiteful biotch"...

...and THAT's the closest we'll ever get to a confession from Casey.

 

[nephers]

I do believe that there was some sort of fight on June 15th but one thing that bugs me is the time frame. I believe someone earlier posted that there was roughly a 30 time period for the fight to take place. Now, we all know how much the Anthony's talk, how could they possibly have a fight that only took 30 mins? I seriously cannot see how any of them could rap up an arguement that fast unless maybe they woke Caylee or stormed off to seperate rooms, but I would think the fight would continue eventually.

I don't know, I guess I'm just thinking out loud.

 

[Devon]

:clap: +1 :thumb: :clap:

Methinks Cindy refused to keep Caylee 6/9PM after having Caylee the entire week prior. (I think we'll eventually see Casey wanted to be free 6/10AM for her visit to the OC Clerk's office to deal w/ the traffic citations. George's account of seeing Caylee leave w/ her backpack was of 6/9 not 6/16).

In return, Casey...not so happy 'bout her 6/9 plans being foiled ...began a game of keep-the-Caylee from Cindy 6/10...moreso than ever before. Recall the early account attributed to George reporting a "sighting" of Caylee by friends of the family @ the mall 6/12, IIRC. This later turned out to be Casey, Caylee and Tony hanging flyers. This little nugget is a decent indicator of the mindset G&C were in when they were confronted w/ LE asking about when Caylee went 'missing' (Note: the 6/9 vs. 6/16 debate on another thread here...not wanting to spin off onto that topic on this thread, just referencing how the escalation started).

By 6/15, IMHO, this game was having its intended effect and Cindy called Casey a "spiteful biotch" amidst their argument for doing this.

After that, 6/16, Casey upped the stakes to "teach her a lesson" (see a metaphor for what ZG uttered when she 'took Caylee from her "mother" ' @ JBPark in abduction part deux?)

On 7/15 when it all goes down we hear Casey utter that maybe she is a "spiteful biotch"...

...and THAT's the closest we'll ever get to a confession from Casey.

I think June 7 is much more likely to be the night of the big fight. IIRC KC turned up at RM's with Caylee fairly late that night, way past the time when a toddler should have been in bed. She was already with TL at that point, so why go to RM's and stay the night? The most likely answer is because she had probably taken Caylee out of bed after the big fight and stormed out with her, most likely yelling something dramatic at CA about how she would never see either of them again. RM's was the only place she knew that she could go to with Caylee. I'll recheck his interviews, but I'm sure he said that they got there about 11pm.

As for June 15, TL states that his conversations with KC throughout that night were all lovey dovey sweet nothings. I think KC would have at least made some mention of 'drama' in the house that night, although it would probably have morphed into a fight between CA and GA in KC's version.

ETA. Just checked RM's interview for July 25. He states on Pg 10 that KC and Caylee turned up at 11pm on Sat June 7 and stayed overnight.

 

[BondJamesBond]

I do believe that there was some sort of fight on June 15th but one thing that bugs me is the time frame. I believe someone earlier posted that there was roughly a 30 time period for the fight to take place. Now, we all know how much the Anthony's talk, how could they possibly have a fight that only took 30 mins? I seriously cannot see how any of them could rap up an arguement that fast unless maybe they woke Caylee or stormed off to seperate rooms, but I would think the fight would continue eventually.

I don't know, I guess I'm just thinking out loud.

I dunno, nephers. :waitasec: I guess it depends on what your accustomed too. Next time Ms. Bond & I go at it :argue: I'll be sure to time it

While they wouldn't hafta be arguing the entire time...IMHO, that's a long time to be hurling insults @ one another :slap:...but, IKWYM re: their propensity to talk...and talk...and talk...ITTA 'bout that

I think June 7 is much more likely to be the night of the big fight. IIRC KC turned up at RM's with Caylee fairly late that night, way past the time when a toddler should have been in bed. She was already with TL at that point, so why go to RM's and stay the night? The most likely answer is because she had probably taken Caylee out of bed after the big fight and stormed out with her, most likely yelling something dramatic at CA about how she would never see either of them again. RM's was the only place she knew that she could go to with Caylee. I'll recheck his interviews, but I'm sure he said that they got there about 11pm.

As for June 15, TL states that his conversations with KC throughout that night were all lovey dovey sweet nothings. I think KC would have at least made some mention of 'drama' in the house that night, although it would probably have morphed into a fight between CA and GA in KC's version.

ETA. Just checked RM's interview for July 25. He states on Pg 10 that KC and Caylee turned up at 11pm on Sat June 7 and stayed overnight.

Very, very interesting, Devon. Very interesting. :waitasec:

 

[blupencl]

*Sniped for brevity

This is a great post. Thank you so much. This makes it so easy to see how it all went down that night. I really appreciate it.

OK, just checking in to say hi and keep up the great posting.

Tricia

The whole thing is finally starting to make sense to me, after all this time. The things CA probably said to KC during their fight have possibly made CA think (maybe with the help of her daughter) that the responsibility for Caylee's death rested on her own shoulders. Two hot tempers going at each other, saying all sorts of things.

I have never been able to come up with any (good enough) reason for CA to be so steadfast in sticking by KC. I think I probably didn't read all the right threads, because there are so many of them and I couldn't keep up. You all probably have already come to this conclusion.

Of course no reason is good enough to dispose of Caylee's body that way. That's where it stops making sense.

 

[~ Amy ~]

Is it possible that CA may have left the house anytime after KC showed up at 7:36 pm ? CA and KC could have had some heated words and CA got upset and decided to leave for a while to cool off, or CA could have stepped out that night to buy GA a gift for Fathers day , therefore leaving KC and Caylee alone in the home.

I just can't see KC texting away , all the while her and CA going at it.
I also think GA is wrong on his dates of 6/16 when he last seen Caylee , he builds his memory of that day by refrencing a cooking show. I have always wondered why he didn't build his recollection by using Fathers Day as a source , instead of a cooking show. I would think Fathers Day would stand out more in my mind than a cooking show ,not unless of course , that day is just another day in their home. Then again , maybe that cookin show is very interesting.

 

[zoey]

has anything really came up over the other chase scene that ga mentioned happened in June but then figured out it happened a few months prior?????? I think things were starting to implode and fathers day---it happened....
I also lean to the June 7/9th bit only because I'm sure things were tense---

just another little thing....did anyone see any bruising around the neck????

 

[jjgram]

:clap: +1 :thumb: :clap:

Methinks Cindy refused to keep Caylee 6/9PM after having Caylee the entire week prior. (I think we'll eventually see Casey wanted to be free 6/10AM for her visit to the OC Clerk's office to deal w/ the traffic citations. George's account of seeing Caylee leave w/ her backpack was of 6/9 not 6/16).

In return, Casey...not so happy 'bout her 6/9 plans being foiled ...began a game of keep-the-Caylee from Cindy 6/10...moreso than ever before. Recall the early account attributed to George reporting a "sighting" of Caylee by friends of the family @ the mall 6/12, IIRC. This later turned out to be Casey, Caylee and Tony hanging flyers. This little nugget is a decent indicator of the mindset G&C were in when they were confronted w/ LE asking about when Caylee went 'missing' (Note: the 6/9 vs. 6/16 debate on another thread here...not wanting to spin off onto that topic on this thread, just referencing how the escalation started).

By 6/15, IMHO, this game was having its intended effect and Cindy called Casey a "spiteful biotch" amidst their argument for doing this.

After that, 6/16, Casey upped the stakes to "teach her a lesson" (see a metaphor for what ZG uttered when she 'took Caylee from her "mother" ' @ JBPark in abduction part deux?)

On 7/15 when it all goes down we hear Casey utter that maybe she is a "spiteful biotch"...

...and THAT's the closest we'll ever get to a confession from Casey.

YES ! ~ Y E S ~ Y ~ E ~ S ! ! !:clap: :clap: :clap:
:clap: :clap: :clap:
Thanks again B J B !!!

God Bless!
jjgram

:blowkiss: appreciate your hard work ! Makes sense to me !!!!

 

[jjgram]

Excellent thread!

First, major kudos to BondJamesBond and others for putting together a comprehensive time line of probable events on June 15, 2008 for the Anthony family.

I think it's highly likely that the fight occurred during the first 29-minute inactivity on Casey's cell phone at 9:26pm.

I think the fight may have started out about one thing - perhaps Casey's failure to take care of Caylee, even when she's at home - Casey more attentive to talking/texting with friends than spending any time with Caylee, and then escalated into other areas of contention. It may have been one of those fights that starts out on one grievance and all other grievances are piled on........the stealing, the unauthorized credit card use, etc.

Cell phone pings after midnight have placed Casey either in or near the Anthony home. I've always thought that after the major fight with Cindy, Casey fled the home with Caylee.

I can see Cindy, tired after a long day and in a state of aggitation after the fight with Casey, retiring to her bedroom or perhaps sitting outside on the patio awaiting George coming home. George probably arrived home shortly after his shift ended at 11:00pm. It's never been stated if George had noted Casey's car in the driveway or had any conversation with Casey after arriving home from work that night. This is something that I hope LE has investigated.

One thing I've noticed is that now that we know the floor plan of the Anthony home - thanks to Hercule Poirot - and know that Casey's bedroom was on the front of the house nearest the front door, while the master bedroom was on the back of the house, how easy it would have been for Casey to slip out the front door un-noticed, unless someone was sitting in the living room area. Also, it would be easy for Casey to simply slip out her bedroom window. So, while Cindy and George may THINK Casey is in her room, she may have actually been gone from the house.

One thing that I'm puzzled about is that Caylee's remains were found without shoes. This suggests the murder happening in the home.

After the fight and after George got home, did Casey slip out of the house and spend most of the night on the cell phone with TonE, and then slip back into the house after Cindy went to work? After being up for most of the night, Casey probably slept for a few hours and then left the home, this time with Caylee. After George left for work, she could have come back home and killed Caylee in the home.

:clap: :clap: :clap:
thanks for the good post !
makes sense to me....

KC did what ever she wanted... and KC probably was
thinking...
I can leave Caylee asleep.... she won't wake up...

but the truth is.... little toddlers get up ~ they might have a
dream... they might get s c a r e d !......
they might get up and wander around...

KC could have even sat out by the backyard pool talking...

but what we do KNOW 100% = CAYLEE is DEAD due to

neglect from KC Not protecting her ! ! !
which ever way it was......................
ZANNY DROVE OFF WITH CAYLEE & kILLED HER....

OR IF KC KILLED HER/

CAYLEE IS DEAD !

KC did NOTHING TO STOP this from happening ! ! !

:furious: :furious: :furious:

J M O
God Bless!
jjgram

 

[Brini]

And, as posted earlier, Mark F. provided similar information.

OK...let's think 'bout this a second. :hand:

IMHO, since only Casey & Cindy were present....:argue:

...and later...an account surfaced from Lee that Cindy had her hands on Casey's throat...:fight:

...from WHOM do you think that account likely came? :whistle:

:laugh: Cindy!?! :spit: :floorlaugh:

Gee...ya' think?

Naaaaaaah...:shakehead:...IMHO, the genesis of THAT version of the fight is Casey :rage:

I thought LA said he was present and saw it?

Not that you can believe him, either. :-(

Yeah, Furman said he got the info (re: the fight, not the choking) from CA. It's in one of the supplemental LE reports.

 

[Sundance]

I am from OH (at least until last year when I moved to Atlanta) we call is lunch and dinner.

I grew up in Louisiana and now live in Mississippi, and we have dinner at noon and supper at night. FWIW.

 

[Jolynna]

Is it possible that CA may have left the house anytime after KC showed up at 7:36 pm ? CA and KC could have had some heated words and CA got upset and decided to leave for a while to cool off, or CA could have stepped out that night to buy GA a gift for Fathers day , therefore leaving KC and Caylee alone in the home.

I just can't see KC texting away , all the while her and CA going at it.
I also think GA is wrong on his dates of 6/16 when he last seen Caylee , he builds his memory of that day by refrencing a cooking show. I have always wondered why he didn't build his recollection by using Fathers Day as a source , instead of a cooking show. I would think Fathers Day would stand out more in my mind than a cooking show ,not unless of course , that day is just another day in their home. Then again , maybe that cookin show is very interesting.

I don't think there was a father's day for George.

Lee was out of town on business. Cindy took Caylee to Mt. Dora. Casey left in the morning to go to Tony's apartment. George went to work until 11 p.m.

 

[cecybeans]

has anything really came up over the other chase scene that ga mentioned happened in June but then figured out it happened a few months prior?????? I think things were starting to implode and fathers day---it happened....
I also lean to the June 7/9th bit only because I'm sure things were tense---

just another little thing....did anyone see any bruising around the neck????

I think it was JWG (will have to look for thread) that did an amazing job pinpointing the date as IIRC the 29th and even calculated mph based on GA's E-Z records. If it's somebody else, I apologize and will correct when I've found it, but it's very impressive work. I think the thought was that GA came home and caught her there unexpectedly in AL's vehicle which he mistook for CA's or something and gave chase.

 

[Jolynna]

I thought LA said he was present and saw it?

Not that you can believe him, either. :-(

Yeah, Furman said he got the info (re: the fight, not the choking) from CA. It's in one of the supplemental LE reports.

Lee didn't see the fight. He was out of town according to the LE calendar from the last document dump.

My understanding is that Casey told Lee about the fight. Casey was on the phone with Tony for over 80 minutes in one stretch that night. Tony specifically denied hearing about a fight between Casey and Cindy. He said Casey DID mention her parents fighting about George's affair and getting a divorce and that Casey wasn't going to get the house, BUT said that most of his conversation with Casey was "lovey-dovey".

Jesse heard about the fight from Lee. Casey didn't mention a fight involving anything physical to Jesse either.

 

[SuziQ]

FWIW, I determined the location of the Conway Toll Booth and mapped the driving time on Google to better estimate Cindy & Caylee's departure and arrival times @ Hopespring Dr. Updated the original post w/ the following:

*snipped*

...of course, There could have been stops between the toll booth and G&C's pushing the afternoon arrival time later than estimated. This just gives an estimate based on the information we have to work with to-date.

Thank you. You have done wonderful work for this forum.

 

[jjgram]

Lee didn't see the fight. He was out of town according to the LE calendar from the last document dump.

My understanding is that Casey told Lee about the fight. Casey was on the phone with Tony for over 80 minutes in one stretch that night. Tony specifically denied hearing about a fight between Casey and Cindy. He said Casey DID mention her parents fighting about George's affair and getting a divorce and that Casey wasn't going to get the house, BUT said that most of his conversation with Casey was "lovey-dovey".

Jesse heard about the fight from Lee. Casey didn't mention a fight involving anything physical to Jesse either.

:waitasec: :waitasec: :waitasec:

who knows what to believe.... re : what KC says ?

truth/fiction ?:waitasec::waitasec::liar::liar::liar::liar::liar::liar::liar::liar::liar::
liar::liar:

Just saying !

JMO
God Bless !
jjgram

 

[SuziQ]

Hereis the scenario in my head:

I think Cindy finally blew a gasket that night. After visiting with her Mom and being informed of Casey's theft from Grandparents, Cindy was angry and humiliated (this was one thing she couldn't sweep under the rug for Casey). She had to eat crow in front of her Mom for her thieving daughter. So she was in a stew already. When Casey got home what did she do? That d*** texting incessantly. Couldn't even bathe Caylee. Once Cindy had the opportunity, she confronted Casey about the theft.

Then it all came boiling to the surface. The lying, the stealing, the sorry parenting. I think everything came out on that night. I believe Cindy said some pretty degrading things to Casey (which she deserved and then some). I think she threatened her with cutting off credit cards and any support whatsoever, and taking custody of Caylee. I can see Casey ready to grab up Caylee to leave and Cindy grabbing Casey and telling her there is no way she is taking that child to God-knows-where. I could easily see it getting physical on the part of both Cindy and Casey.

I'll bet that when George came rolling in, Cindy told him "Deal with your daughter, because I can't stand to look at her" or something similar. So Casey ends up talking with Dad, and calms down a bit and stays there for the night. She probably slept very little, since she was fixated on Tony. She had to escape this horrible trap. After that, anything goes. Caylee was at that point, just collateral damage.

FWIW, GA didn't get home from work till 11:30ish. According to a LE interview he may have seen Casey's car in the driveway. Didn't see Casey and Caylee at all that night and Cindy was asleep. IF you can believe what he says that is. However, IMO, it would be unusual for someone to stay in a house where someone had just tried to choke you. I think Casey fled after the fight.