Did JonBenet Have A Nosebleed The Night She Died?

[Veronica10]

Solace...

Question or comment really, if she was thrown into a sink or tub (which by the way, I can picture that happening), why doesn't Patsy call 911. To me, she still has the chance to say JonBenet tripped or something.

I always assumed the cracked skull came from a whack on the head with an object. Smashing an object over the head could be a reason for the no 911 approach. The forcing her into the bathroom and flinging her still allows for a 911 call.

Let me know you thoughts.

 

[Solace]

Solace...

Question or comment really, if she was thrown into a sink or tub (which by the way, I can picture that happening), why doesn't Patsy call 911. To me, she still has the chance to say JonBenet tripped or something.

I always assumed the cracked skull came from a whack on the head with an object. Smashing an object over the head could be a reason for the no 911 approach. The forcing her into the bathroom and flinging her still allows for a 911 call.

Let me know you thoughts.

Hi Veronica,

This is what I think. She was angry at her for some reason - she was so angry that she twisted her shirt with her hand and left her thumbprint on the front of JonBenet's neck. That means she grabbed her by the collar and twisted and dragged her. I think she dragged her and threw her into the bathroom (NOW IF THIS IS TRUE AND SHE IS DRAGGING HER - WHEN SHE THROWS HER, she will land on the back of her head, which is exactly where the blow originated) because she is grabbing her from the front proven by the print, so her arm is basically over JB's face as she is basically strangling her with rage) and JonBenet fell back against the bathtub and she sustained the lethal blow there. She had to use considerable force to do this, but she is already using considerable force, because she has left her thumb print clearly defined on JB's neck) - So Patsy tries to wake her and becomes terrified and starts to shake her (Cyrill Wecht says someone shook JonBenet and left bruising on the sides of her brain). So she is shaking her very hard, hard enough to leave bruising and nothing - she has to feel her head to see if she is bleeding. She does not feel blood but she HAS TO FEEL THE SPLIT - HAS TO. She also has to HEAR IT AS IT HAPPENED. Cyrill Wecht says this was a very loud crack and when it happened, it was heard. Maybe JonBenet starts to convulse, but I would bet money that Patsy herself is convulsing with fear at this moment, because she knows she split JB's head in half - she can feel it. And she is not calling anyone.


And that is what I think happened.

HAVE A NICE WEEKEND VERONICA. NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

 

[Ames]

I know some ppl sit on the fence about whether the headblow came first or the stragulation, me being one of those ppl. I wish i could make a call on it but theyre are so many different expert opinions so i dont know what to believe. But since this thread came up ive been thinking that since there wasnt any bleeding from the nose or ears,nor vomitting from the severe head trauama - could it be because JB was strangled first?

Go back and read the beginning of this thread, and then all of the posts. Blood was found inside of her nose, and there was a blood stain on her pillowcase....(suggesting to me, that it had bled, and then was wiped off). No, her headwound came first...not the strangulation with the garrotte. I do however, agree with Solace...that JB's collar was twisted by Patsy, and Patsy threw her into the side of the tub. Go back and find my thread, "What if feels like to be strangled". And you will see why I KNOW that the head wound came FIRST.

 

[DeeDee249]

There was a thin film of fluid coming from her mouth in the autopsy photo. Whether that would be considered vomit I don't know. There was also a tan mucous in her nose, to me, the "tan" indicated there had been blood, which as we all know, darkens from red to brownish rust after a while. A small amount could color mucous tan.
Nosebleeds usually involve a lot of blood. I think it'd be likely to be found, even a small amount, either in her room or somewhere in the basement. I think any nosebleed was nothing more than oozing blood from the head bash.

 

[Toltec]

Hi Veronica,

This is what I think. She was angry at her for some reason - she was so angry that she twisted her shirt with her hand and left her thumbprint on the front of JonBenet's neck. That means she grabbed her by the collar and twisted and dragged her. I think she dragged her and threw her into the bathroom (NOW IF THIS IS TRUE AND SHE IS DRAGGING HER - WHEN SHE THROWS HER, she will land on the back of her head, which is exactly where the blow originated) because she is grabbing her from the front proven by the print, so her arm is basically over JB's face as she is basically strangling her with rage) and JonBenet fell back against the bathtub and she sustained the lethal blow there. She had to use considerable force to do this, but she is already using considerable force, because she has left her thumb print clearly defined on JB's neck) - So Patsy tries to wake her and becomes terrified and starts to shake her (Cyrill Wecht says someone shook JonBenet and left bruising on the sides of her brain). So she is shaking her very hard, hard enough to leave bruising and nothing - she has to feel her head to see if she is bleeding. She does not feel blood but she HAS TO FEEL THE SPLIT - HAS TO. She also has to HEAR IT AS IT HAPPENED. Cyrill Wecht says this was a very loud crack and when it happened, it was heard. Maybe JonBenet starts to convulse, but I would bet money that Patsy herself is convulsing with fear at this moment, because she knows she split JB's head in half - she can feel it. And she is not calling anyone.


And that is what I think happened.

HAVE A NICE WEEKEND VERONICA. NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

I believe that scenario too...except the blow could also have come from the flashlight.

So let's say the Ramseys get home around 9:30. JonBenet has some pineapple while Burke has tea.

JonBenet is dressed in the red turtleneck and a pair of pants for the early flight to Charlevoix. She is put to bed.

Around midnight, Patsy wakes JonBenet for a toilet break. She takes her to the bathroom and discovers JonBenet has soiled herself.

She then tells JonBenet to undress so as to take a quick bath. JonBenet does not want to bathe and starts fighting Patsy. That is when the frustration of the holidays and the trips to hither and yon come to a head and Patsy loses it.

 

[JMO8778]

Solace...

Question or comment really, if she was thrown into a sink or tub (which by the way, I can picture that happening), why doesn't Patsy call 911. To me, she still has the chance to say JonBenet tripped or something.

I always assumed the cracked skull came from a whack on the head with an object. Smashing an object over the head could be a reason for the no 911 approach. The forcing her into the bathroom and flinging her still allows for a 911 call.

Let me know you thoughts.

I thought about that a lot..solace mentions the thumbprint on her neck..I think her neck was very red and bruised at the time...and it would have been obvious to dr's that it was no accident and that she was manually strangled and thrown against,or hit with ..something.So I think that ruled that out.
OTOH,maybe that is just too nice an approach,and while we would all like to think it was an accident,as we can't possibly comprehend it any other way,maybe it wasn't, and JB was intended to be killed,altho it likely wasn't planned in advance.

 

[Charlie]

Go back and read the beginning of this thread, and then all of the posts. Blood was found inside of her nose, and there was a blood stain on her pillowcase....(suggesting to me, that it had bled, and then was wiped off). No, her headwound came first...not the strangulation with the garrotte. I do however, agree with Solace...that JB's collar was twisted by Patsy, and Patsy threw her into the side of the tub. Go back and find my thread, "What if feels like to be strangled". And you will see why I KNOW that the head wound came FIRST.

Hi Ames, i cant find anywhere in the autopsy report that says blood was found inside her nose, all i could find was "The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous" I don't think you should be saying thats blood when we don't know what the tan material is. Secondly The blood stain on her pillow case could have come from an innocent nose bleed. It was winter time in Dec 1996 and some ppl, myself included get nosebleeds on occasion during winter from the cold air drying my skin, its quite common. Furthermore who's to say it came from the nose at all. She could have scraped her wrist and it bled, and when sleeping with her arm against the pillow the blood could have transferred, its all very speculative imo. Again we don't know that her "headwound came first...not the strangulation with the garrote" some experts are divided on this issue. I do realise that you have had first hand experience in being strangled and can shed important information about this. but In future please say that u believe this could be the case instead of presenting it as fact,as i think that i have misread the autopsy report when in fact i havent (not being snooty its just i really think ive misread)

 

[Charlie]

She was strangled twice; once before the head trauma and once after it. The first time, a thumb print is clearly visible on the front of her neck where her shirt was twisted by someone, Patsy I believe, and turned in and twisted so hard it left a thumb print, not just an outline and I believe in one continuing motion she was thrown against the sink. I believe this because anyone who is so angry as to strangle your child and leave a thumb print is not going to stop in mid anger and pick up a flashlight and hit her, they are going to continue and throw her as they are walking. IMO

I cant remember if someone posted a photo of this thumb print or not, but solace is there one i can look at?

 

[Ames]

There was a thin film of fluid coming from her mouth in the autopsy photo. Whether that would be considered vomit I don't know. There was also a tan mucous in her nose, to me, the "tan" indicated there had been blood, which as we all know, darkens from red to brownish rust after a while. A small amount could color mucous tan.
Nosebleeds usually involve a lot of blood. I think it'd be likely to be found, even a small amount, either in her room or somewhere in the basement. I think any nosebleed was nothing more than oozing blood from the head bash.

Her pillowcase had a blood stain. Patsy was asked if JB had night time nosebleeds, in her interview...and she said NO. I agree with you though, it didn't have to bleed profusely.

 

[Ames]

Hi Ames, i cant find anywhere in the autopsy report that says blood was found inside her nose, all i could find was "The nostrils are both patent and contain a small amount of tan mucous" I don't think you should be saying thats blood when we don't know what the tan material is.

Hi Charlie....it wasn't in the autopsy report, it was in Steve Thomas' Book....page 36, Hardback.

"Abrasions were noted below the right earlobe and right jawline, and there was a small amount of blood around the nasal passages."

Secondly The blood stain on her pillow case could have come from an innocent nose bleed. It was winter time in Dec 1996 and some ppl, myself included get nosebleeds on occasion during winter from the cold air drying my skin, its quite common.

My nose does the same thing. I HATE THAT....but, Patsy said in her interview that JB never had nosebleeds. Go back to the thread titled..."PR Interview"...and read it, if you don't believe me. She would have known if JB had nosebleeds from the dry air or not, but yet...Patsy said that JB didn't.

Again we don't know that her "headwound came first...not the strangulation with the garrote" some experts are divided on this issue. I do realise that you have had first hand experience in being strangled and can shed important information about this. but In future please say that u believe this could be the case instead of presenting it as fact,as i think that i have misread the autopsy report when in fact i havent (not being snooty its just i really think ive misread)

Please read my signature at the bottom of every one of my post...where it says that ALL of my posts are my thoughts or ideas.

 

[Toltec]

Hi Charlie....it wasn't in the autopsy report, it was in Steve Thomas' Book....page 36, Hardback.

"Abrasions were noted below the right earlobe and right jawline, and there was a small amount of blood around the nasal passages."



My nose does the same thing. I HATE THAT....but, Patsy said in her interview that JB never had nosebleeds. Go back to the thread titled..."PR Interview"...and read it, if you don't believe me. She would have known if JB had nosebleeds from the dry air or not, but yet...Patsy said that JB didn't.



Please read my signature at the bottom of every one of my post...where it says that ALL of my posts are my thoughts or ideas.

not to mention the blood in her mouth....

 

[JMO8778]

does anyone have any opinion on when she might have been cleaned of the blood??IF PR caused the head wound,then maybe she cleaned JB up bf going to get JR,as the items to clean her seem to have come from her bathroom in the interview.it would have been less shocking to see her that way.or it's possible she was cleaned up by JR in the basement,or by him bf she was taken there?

Just wondering bc later her face does seem to be omitted from being wiped down.

 

[Albert18]

Again we don't know that her "headwound came first...not the strangulation with the garrote" some experts are divided on this issue.

I disagree strongly. You have to learn how to "read" the experts.

Is JonBenet going to lie still why she is strangled?

 

[Ames]

I disagree strongly. You have to learn how to "read" the experts.

Is JonBenet going to lie still why she is strangled?

Heck no. Goodness knows that I didn't just lie still when I was being strangled....around the same age as JB. Of course, it really doesn't matter the age, NOBODY is just going to sit still while they have their airway cut off. She would have fought, and she would have fought HARD.

 

[Ames]

does anyone have any opinion on when she might have been cleaned of the blood??IF PR caused the head wound,then maybe she cleaned JB up bf going to get JR,as the items to clean her seem to have come from her bathroom in the interview.it would have been less shocking to see her that way.or it's possible she was cleaned up by JR in the basement,or by him bf she was taken there?

Just wondering bc later her face does seem to be omitted from being wiped down.

I believe that the blood was wiped off. The mucous could have either been overlooked, because of the light color or it, or it may have came afterward.

 

[JMO8778]

I believe that the blood was wiped off. The mucous could have either been overlooked, because of the light color or it, or it may have came afterward.

no doubt,that's prob. why it was said there was a surprising lack of blood.But I think she was out immediately after the head injury and her BP dropped,so any blood was wiped away easily.

 

[Ames]

no doubt,that's prob. why it was said there was a surprising lack of blood.But I think she was out immediately after the head injury and her BP dropped,so any blood was wiped away easily.[/quote]

I totally agree with you!!

 

[BBB167893]

You know, I've often thought the initial attack took place in or near her bedroom. Maybe I was right.

 

[Charlie]

Hi Charlie....it wasn't in the autopsy report, it was in Steve Thomas' Book....page 36, Hardback."Abrasions were noted below the right earlobe and right jawline, and there was a small amount of blood around the nasal passages."

I lent my friend the Steve Thomas book and have asked for it back numerous times and still dont have argg. Since i cant look it up, Ames can u tell if if seve thomas elaborated on how he knows its blood, did Meyer test the tan mucous fluid? I like you, would be inclined to believe the tan mucous is blood, but i just dont like threading unknowns into my thoery, i prefer hard known facts. If Meyer didnt test the fluid for blood that was a major blunder, amoung many on his part during the autopsy.

My nose does the same thing. I HATE THAT....but, Patsy said in her interview that JB never had nosebleeds. Go back to the thread titled..."PR Interview"...and read it, if you don't believe me. She would have known if JB had nosebleeds from the dry air or not, but yet...Patsy said that JB didn't.

We still have the possibility that the blood on the pillow didnt come from the result of the murder. However its not unreasonable to assume it could have. With that said, Ames whats your theory on how this blood came upon the pillow and more inportantly know where else in the room (on her bead sheets, carpet and clothing)

Please read my signature at the bottom of every one of my post...where it says that ALL of my posts are my thoughts or ideas.

A apologise i didnt read your signiture. In future ill read your posts keeping your signiture in mind.

 

[Ames]

I lent my friend the Steve Thomas book and have asked for it back numerous times and still dont have argg. Since i cant look it up, Ames can u tell if if seve thomas elaborated on how he knows its blood, did Meyer test the tan mucous fluid? I like you, would be inclined to believe the tan mucous is blood, but i just dont like threading unknowns into my thoery, i prefer hard known facts. If Meyer didnt test the fluid for blood that was a major blunder, amoung many on his part during the autopsy.

LOL...yes, I hate that. When you lend out a book and never get it back. I don't know if Steve Thomas elaborated....I will have to look it up. Meanwhile, maybe other posters that have his book, can help me out. Steve Thomas knows more about this case than anyone knows. IMO

We still have the possibility that the blood on the pillow didnt come from the result of the murder. However its not unreasonable to assume it could have. With that said, Ames whats your theory on how this blood came upon the pillow and more inportantly know where else in the room (on her bead sheets, carpet and clothing)

Yeah, you are right...the blood could have come from another source..and not necessarily her nose. BUT...go back and read the beginning of this thread...all of the medical websites that I found, say that in the case of a severe head wound, theres bleeding or fluid (not necessarily BLOOD) that comes from the nose, ears and mouth. One or all of the above. I have no doubt that JB bled from her nose and possibly her mouth....and even quite possibly her INNER EARS (only the outer parts were checked for blood in the autopsy). With a headwound that severe....there is NO WAY...imo...that she would not have bled from somewhere. I really don't know how the blood got onto her pillow....my thought would be that it got on there from the nosebleed, that I believe that she had after the headwound. The only problem with that is....I don't know if the stain had been washed out or not. In other words, I don't know if the bloodstain was faded...like it had been washed...or if it was bright red, like someone had bled, and it hadn't been washed out. I wished that they had of elaborated more on that in the interview.

A apologise i didnt read your signiture. In future ill read your posts keeping your signiture in mind.

Hey, thats quite alright...no problem.