Did JonBenet Have A Nosebleed The Night She Died?

[UKGuy]

Steve Thomas must have seen the photos from the White's party. Anyone privy to that information already knows whether the white Gap shirt was part of the redressing/staging or not. I don't suppose the public will ever know, as the full extent of evidence won't be made public as long as the case remains "open". (as if).
It's the same with the autopsy report. Public documents that have information hidden or redacted are supposed to indicate that fact by showing where things are blacked out, or by indicating where things are supposed to be. The autopsy doesn't indicate anything was edited, but there were so many irregularities in the way the coroner worked, that I don't think it can be assumed the report is complete the way we see it. In all the interviews, each line is numbered. There are many, many numbered lines with nothing written. There is a lot of info we don't have!

DeeDee249,

Steve Thomas did view the photos, he states this clearly in his book. This is how he knew Patsy was wearing the same clothes to the White's and the following morning!

A careful reading of his book will suggest he is privy to more forensic evidence than has been released publicly e.g. JonBenet's vaginal status was discussed in his book, and a conclusion of prior molestation is reached, Coroner Meyer indirectly refers to this verbally, which is distinct from her acute vaginal injury, the Ramsey households were searched explicitly for child *advertiser censored*, why so, I reckon the investigators had discovered a collection of photographs, the subject of which was JonBenet, so they speculated more should exist?

There is indeed information redacted from the autopsy, this is standard practise, it should be assumed in most homicides, since differentiating characters like J M Karr, who claim to be an offender, can be achieved employing some of the redacted information, and in staged crimes not advertising this fact can wrong foot an offender under interview.


The two largely uncontensted fallacies surrounding the death of JonBenet is that of an Intruder and an Accident, both do not explain the forensic evidence, and in fact simply complicate matters.


The death of JonBenet is a Lust Murder or a Sexual Homicide the investigating officers know this, they know who should have been charged, they have the evidence to substantiate probable cause, but political considerations determined otherwise.


.

 

[rashomon]

DeeDee249,

Steve Thomas did view the photos, he states this clearly in his book. This is how he knew Patsy was wearing the same clothes to the White's and the following morning!

A careful reading of his book will suggest he is privy to more forensic evidence than has been released publicly e.g. JonBenet's vaginal status was discussed in his book, and a conclusion of prior molestation is reached, Coroner Meyer indirectly refers to this verbally, which is distinct from her acute vaginal injury, the Ramsey households were searched explicitly for child *advertiser censored*, why so, I reckon the investigators had discovered a collection of photographs, the subject of which was JonBenet, so they speculated more should exist?

There is indeed information redacted from the autopsy, this is standard practise, it should be assumed in most homicides, since differentiating characters like J M Karr, who claim to be an offender, can be achieved employing some of the redacted information, and in staged crimes not advertising this fact can wrong foot an offender under interview.


The two largely uncontensted fallacies surrounding the death of JonBenet is that of an Intruder and an Accident, both do not explain the forensic evidence, and in fact simply complicate matters.


The death of JonBenet is a Lust Murder or a Sexual Homicide the investigating officers know this, they know who should have been charged, they have the evidence to substantiate probable cause, but political considerations determined otherwise.

Lust murder? If it started out, like you said, with her turtleneck collar (or something else) being twisted around her neck, followed by a blow to the head, it points more to a rage attack imo.
The small vaginal wound would in no way have been fatal, the inner neck area showed no signs if any injury, and no fingernail marks were on her neck, which points to the cord being applied on an inert and unresisting body for staging purposes.
I think JB's genital injuries would have been far worse if this had been a lust murder.

 

[Solace]

Lust murder? If it started out, like you said, with her turtleneck collar (or something else) being twisted around her neck, followed by a blow to the head, it points more to a rage attack imo.
The small vaginal wound would in no way have been fatal, the inner neck area showed no signs if any injury, and no fingernail marks were on her neck, which points to the cord being applied on an inert and unresisting body for staging purposes.
I think JB's genital injuries would have been far worse if this had been a lust murder.

She was pulled by the neck and so hard that it left the thumb print of the killer who then dragged her (more than likely) and threw her head first into the sink and she hit the back of her head full force on the edge of the sink, the rectangular edge that caused the blow to her head. I would bet money it happened this way.

It is very unlikely that with that kind of rage the one pulling her by the neck is going to stop and get a flashlight and finish her off. It is more likely that the rage was ongoing and flowed right up until JB was knocked unconscious and then Patsy, I believe, shook her very hard to wake her and in realizing what she did - because I KNOW she heard that crack, went into shock and preservation mode big time. She probably felt the crack on her head also. That is more than likely when she decided this is fatal - she could feel the 8 1/2 inch crack under JB's scalp. Enough to make her terrified of her future.

She did it and John helped - after all she said "he screamed for me from the basement". That little gem is as good as DNA for me.

 

[UKGuy]

Lust murder? If it started out, like you said, with her turtleneck collar (or something else) being twisted around her neck, followed by a blow to the head, it points more to a rage attack imo.
The small vaginal wound would in no way have been fatal, the inner neck area showed no signs if any injury, and no fingernail marks were on her neck, which points to the cord being applied on an inert and unresisting body for staging purposes.
I think JB's genital injuries would have been far worse if this had been a lust murder.

rashomon,

A Lust Murder is a generic phrase for a sexually motivated homicide, other than jealousy, economic, psychotic or as at the Virginia Tech self aggrandizement.

I reckon she was asphyxiated twice, once manually and again using the cord and paintbrush handle for staging purposes, there are lust murders that do not severely injure the genitals, but as you know JonBenet had both an acute and chronic injuries to her genitals.


.

 

[Solace]

rashomon,

A Lust Murder is a generic phrase for a sexually motivated homicide, other than jealousy, economic, psychotic or as at the Virginia Tech self aggrandizement.

I reckon she was asphyxiated twice, once manually and again using the cord and paintbrush handle for staging purposes, there are lust murders that do not severely injure the genitals, but as you know JonBenet had both an acute and chronic injuries to her genitals.


.

Thanks for bringing us up to snuff on the lust murder thing.

I reckon she was killed in a rage attack which is evidenced by that pesky thumb print on her neck when she was asphyxiated the first time. And so angry was that person who left their thumb print that they FOLLOWED through and slammed her head into the bathroom sink more than likely.

 

[Toltec]

Steve Thomas must have seen the photos from the White's party. Anyone privy to that information already knows whether the white Gap shirt was part of the redressing/staging or not. I don't suppose the public will ever know, as the full extent of evidence won't be made public as long as the case remains "open". (as if).
It's the same with the autopsy report. Public documents that have information hidden or redacted are supposed to indicate that fact by showing where things are blacked out, or by indicating where things are supposed to be. The autopsy doesn't indicate anything was edited, but there were so many irregularities in the way the coroner worked, that I don't think it can be assumed the report is complete the way we see it. In all the interviews, each line is numbered. There are many, many numbered lines with nothing written. There is a lot of info we don't have!

There is lots we do not know, including the Coroners notes on the Autopsy. My belief is that there was forensic evidence on the red turtleneck because Steve Thomas is so adament that JonBenet wore the red turtleneck that night.

Blood on the red turtleneck? Possible.

 

[JMO8778]

She was pulled by the neck and so hard that it left the thumb print of the killer who then dragged her (more than likely) and threw her head first into the sink and she hit the back of her head full force on the edge of the sink, the rectangular edge that caused the blow to her head. I would bet money it happened this way.

It is very unlikely that with that kind of rage the one pulling her by the neck is going to stop and get a flashlight and finish her off. It is more likely that the rage was ongoing and flowed right up until JB was knocked unconscious and then Patsy, I believe, shook her very hard to wake her and in realizing what she did - because I KNOW she heard that crack, went into shock and preservation mode big time. She probably felt the crack on her head also. That is more than likely when she decided this is fatal - she could feel the 8 1/2 inch crack under JB's scalp. Enough to make her terrified of her future.

She did it and John helped - after all she said "he screamed for me from the basement". That little gem is as good as DNA for me.

..and the part where she says she 'has flashbacks of Jonbenet screaming',is significant I think.
I do question if it was simply from toilet rage though.Perhaps it's more complicated than that.

 

[JMO8778]

There is lots we do not know, including the Coroners notes on the Autopsy. My belief is that there was forensic evidence on the red turtleneck because Steve Thomas is so adament that JonBenet wore the red turtleneck that night.

Blood on the red turtleneck? Possible.

and on the red jumpsuit PR said she washed out?

 

[DeeDee249]

I know there were two red garments spoken about. The red turtleneck and a red jumpsuit. It the interviews, PR mentions the red jumpsuit as being a "little Christmas thing" that JBR wore when she performed in a Mall with some of her pageant friends. She was questioned about her activities in the laundry area, and mentioned this jumpsuit.
But the red turtleneck was what was found soaking in a sink, right? PR mentions wanting JBR to wear it to the Whites so it would match a red turtleneck PR was wearing under her jacket. That's the shirt JBR refused to wear, and ended up wearing the white Gap shirt she was found in. But I always wondered....if she didn't wear the red shirt, why was it found soaking? It should have been clean, if it was unworn. The only reason would be if it had stains that PR needed to remove asap. An odd chore to tackle at a time when she was supposedly rushing around getting ready for the trip to Charlevoix.

 

[Toltec]

I know there were two red garments spoken about. The red turtleneck and a red jumpsuit. It the interviews, PR mentions the red jumpsuit as being a "little Christmas thing" that JBR wore when she performed in a Mall with some of her pageant friends. She was questioned about her activities in the laundry area, and mentioned this jumpsuit.
But the red turtleneck was what was found soaking in a sink, right? PR mentions wanting JBR to wear it to the Whites so it would match a red turtleneck PR was wearing under her jacket. That's the shirt JBR refused to wear, and ended up wearing the white Gap shirt she was found in. But I always wondered....if she didn't wear the red shirt, why was it found soaking? It should have been clean, if it was unworn. The only reason would be if it had stains that PR needed to remove asap. An odd chore to tackle at a time when she was supposedly rushing around getting ready for the trip to Charlevoix.

The red turtleneck was found balled up on JonBenet's bathroom counter. No mention of it being wet. The red jumpsuit is the outfit JonBenet wore for a performance in the mall....her fellow participants wore the exact same jumpsuits. Apparently JB stained her outfit so Patsy was cleaning the spots when she went downstairs.

That chore Patsy was performing...cleaning stains on an outfit JonBenet wore on the 18th of December...just doesn't cut it with me. Why take time to clean a jumpsuit sitting there for a week when you are in a hurry to get ready for the trip to the airport???

Why not start off the day like any normal person...put the coffee on, then proceed to wash up and get make-up on, do the hair, get dressed, prepare fruit and bagels for the trip, then get the kids up?

Patsy told Officer Rick French that she checked JonBenet's room first, found it empty, then went downstairs and found the note. She later told Det. Arndt that she found the note first, then checked JB's room and found it empty.

 

[DeeDee249]

Toltec, you're right about tackling a chore like washing the red jumpsuit, which presumably wasn't needed for the trip to Charlevoix OR the trip on the Disney boat. There are a hundred little last-minute details to ANY trip, especially with children. Why waste your time on this unnecessary one?
ST's theory of the strangulation with the red turtleneck is a good reason for why JBR was re-dressed. Somewhere on one of the many JBR sites (I can't recall which one) there was a photo of a person that had been strangled with a scarf compared next to the autopsy photo of JBR showing the triangular abrasion. That other person had a nearly identical triangular red mark.
As far as the too-large panties, I think that PR probably insisted her daughter wear the (correct size) original Bloomies Wednesday panties that day because Christmas was a Wednesday that year. It is a very PR-like thing to do. But after the assault, those panties were stained with blood or other fluids. I can totally imagine the Rs saying to each other to be sure they redressed JBR in panties that also said Wednesday, because if anyone at the White's had seen those panties, (JBR was known to ask for help in the bathroom) they needed to be the same ones, and the only ones available that also said "Wednesday" were the size 12 ones that had originally been bought for someone else. But to me, this plan backfired, as no intruder would know the other panties existed, where they were, or even bothered to redress a child they'd just killed. If her panties were soiled with blood or semen, they'd simply remove them and leave the body naked. A stranger just wouldn't take the time to redress a body, nor would they take the time.

 

[Ames]

The red turtleneck was found balled up on JonBenet's bathroom counter. No mention of it being wet. The red jumpsuit is the outfit JonBenet wore for a performance in the mall....her fellow participants wore the exact same jumpsuits. Apparently JB stained her outfit so Patsy was cleaning the spots when she went downstairs.

That chore Patsy was performing...cleaning stains on an outfit JonBenet wore on the 18th of December...just doesn't cut it with me. Why take time to clean a jumpsuit sitting there for a week when you are in a hurry to get ready for the trip to the airport???

Why not start off the day like any normal person...put the coffee on, then proceed to wash up and get make-up on, do the hair, get dressed, prepare fruit and bagels for the trip, then get the kids up?

Patsy told Officer Rick French that she checked JonBenet's room first, found it empty, then went downstairs and found the note. She later told Det. Arndt that she found the note first, then checked JB's room and found it empty.

HMMMM...really? I didn't know about that. Of course, its hard to keep your story straight when you are a liar.

 

[Ames]

Toltec, you're right about tackling a chore like washing the red jumpsuit, which presumably wasn't needed for the trip to Charlevoix OR the trip on the Disney boat. There are a hundred little last-minute details to ANY trip, especially with children. Why waste your time on this unnecessary one?
ST's theory of the strangulation with the red turtleneck is a good reason for why JBR was re-dressed. Somewhere on one of the many JBR sites (I can't recall which one) there was a photo of a person that had been strangled with a scarf compared next to the autopsy photo of JBR showing the triangular abrasion. That other person had a nearly identical triangular red mark.
As far as the too-large panties, I think that PR probably insisted her daughter wear the (correct size) original Bloomies Wednesday panties that day because Christmas was a Wednesday that year. It is a very PR-like thing to do. But after the assault, those panties were stained with blood or other fluids. I can totally imagine the Rs saying to each other to be sure they redressed JBR in panties that also said Wednesday, because if anyone at the White's had seen those panties, (JBR was known to ask for help in the bathroom) they needed to be the same ones, and the only ones available that also said "Wednesday" were the size 12 ones that had originally been bought for someone else. But to me, this plan backfired, as no intruder would know the other panties existed, where they were, or even bothered to redress a child they'd just killed. If her panties were soiled with blood or semen, they'd simply remove them and leave the body naked. A stranger just wouldn't take the time to redress a body, nor would they take the time.

Exactly...my thoughts exactly....and don't forget, that an intruder ALSO wouldn't have taken the time to FIND a blanket, much less take the time to wrap her in one. The panties and the blanket....among a gazillion other weird things...scream...there was NO intruder.

 

[DeeDee249]

You know, one of the most ridiculous things I'd seen in the interviews was when JR was asked about the chair that he said was blocking the room with the broken window. The investigator asked him (almost incredulously) if he felt an intruder could have pulled the chair in front of the door after he had already closed the door! JR answered that yes, he though that anyone clever enough to commit this murder and not leave a single bit of evidence behind was clever enough to magically pull a chair through a closed door and block that door. Telekenesis, anyone?

 

[Ames]

You know, one of the most ridiculous things I'd seen in the interviews was when JR was asked about the chair that he said was blocking the room with the broken window. The investigator asked him (almost incredulously) if he felt an intruder could have pulled the chair in front of the door after he had already closed the door! JR answered that yes, he though that anyone clever enough to commit this murder and not leave a single bit of evidence behind was clever enough to magically pull a chair through a closed door and block that door. Telekenesis, anyone?

He obviously had watched one too many David Copperfield TV Specials.

 

[DeeDee249]

Thinking about that basement room...with the broken window. I recall seeing an interview with the R's original housekeeper before Linda Hoffman-Pugh. I think her name was also Linda, where she was shown the crime scene photos and the basement room with that window Lou Smit was shown climbing through. She said she remembered that window opening differently. She though the window had been changed, that they'd "changed the way the window opened" (Her words). I saw photos of some of the R's basement windows that opened "awning" style (like many basement windows). They have small openings, even when the window itself is bigger. Not big enough for an adult to go through. The window Lou Smit is shown climbing through is larger and opens casement-style, on a hinge. It's awkward, but an adult male can fit.

 

[Ames]

Thinking about that basement room...with the broken window. I recall seeing an interview with the R's original housekeeper before Linda Hoffman-Pugh. I think her name was also Linda, where she was shown the crime scene photos and the basement room with that window Lou Smit was shown climbing through. She said she remembered that window opening differently. She though the window had been changed, that they'd "changed the way the window opened" (Her words). I saw photos of some of the R's basement windows that opened "awning" style (like many basement windows). They have small openings, even when the window itself is bigger. Not big enough for an adult to go through. The window Lou Smit is shown climbing through is larger and opens casement-style, on a hinge. It's awkward, but an adult male can fit.

I believe thats the same window that John said that he crawled through...in his underwear...(just imagine THAT visual...LOL), because he got locked out of the house. Although, I find his story hard to believe.

 

[Toltec]

I believe thats the same window that John said that he crawled through...in his underwear...(just imagine THAT visual...LOL), because he got locked out of the house. Although, I find his story hard to believe.

I can believe it...cheapskate Johnny did not want to pay for a locksmith. He did crawl down that window, leaving the black scuff mark from his dress shoes.

Seams like ole lizard lips likens himself to a Super Hero....Captain Underpants!

 

[Ames]

I can believe it...cheapskate Johnny did not want to pay for a locksmith. He did crawl down that window, leaving the black scuff mark from his dress shoes.

Seams like ole lizard lips likens himself to a Super Hero....Captain Underpants!

LOL

I was just noticing your signature at the bottom of all of your posts. The Ramsey's sure like to use the word "Victory" alot. When Patsy died, her sister Pam said that she finally got her Victory...or something like that. The word Victory was used by Pam too. (The ransom note...Victory, SBTC...)

 

[DeeDee249]

After interviewing that first housekeeper, I can't believe no one looked into seeing if the window really HAD been changed, and if so, when. Investigate local repair shops, cancelled checks/credit card receipts to repairmen, having forensics match the paint on the window to the rest of the basement windows, y'know, that sort of thing.