Did Lisa's Mom do it? Poll

[marge_rita]

*looks around the room cautiously, checks on status of own uterus and womanhood, backs out of room slowly*

:floorlaugh:

 

[TakeNote]

:thud:

 

[MsMacGyver]

IMO...I believe it's every persons right, whether they be man or woman, to define who they are. Others may have their own opinion about you but once you allow other people to define you...your lost.

I think there have been alot of great points posted here. I bet if we look at history, we could find examples of mothers who have been burned in effigy as well as examples of society rising up to demand justice for the innocent children of the world. Child abduction and murder has become an epidemic in this country. There are so many foundations set up to provide help and support for the children after the fact. Although this is wonderful, I wish I could see more prevention methods put in place. Most parents take it upon themselves to protect their children. Even then children are taken. Schools have drills in place to protect the kids at school. This became evident to me some time back when I saw a news report of a school bus fire. The kids had run drills on what to do in case of a fire. They all knew what to do because they were prepared. I was a bus student along with my three kids, I remember those drills. Unfortunately, there is no drill to follow once your child goes missing. We are in the process of watching this case turn into a mess because LE deals differently depending on location. Parents have no one to call except a lawyer to guide them through the maze. Some people judge by what they see, not what they know. I think alot of parents realize how dangerous it's become out there. Unfortunately in this case mom decided to get plastered when in charge of three small children and now Lisa is paying the price. Unfortunately we have no resource out there to help guide parents when their child goes missing. LE but in some cases they mishandle the situation. Lawyers, then people judge harshly...jmo

 

[MsMacGyver]

I went to bed thinking about this case. The mere fact that this mom put her baby down at 6:30pm and can't remember whether she checked on her after this point..imo...makes her guilty of neglect, plain and simple. Shes not new at mothering, I can't imagine a mom doing this. If she did choose to get drunk when responsible for 3 small kids, then shes guilty of neglect. If you want to have "me time"...you can always wait until they go to bed or hire a babysitter, friend or family member. This mom is guilty of poor judgement. Her comment on not seeing anything wrong with me time sounds like something the lawyer coached her on, she may very well believe whats coming out of her mouth..who knows. One thing I do know for sure...There is a small chance some total stranger saw her in a store with her kids and she became a target. Not likely but it can and has happened. Otherwise it speaks volumes that the first night dad works night shift, the baby disappears. This tells me either the mom couldn't be trusted to care for her children alone at night or someone dad works for or with knew he wouldn't be home that night. Someone mom knows knew he wouldn't be there that night. Odds are against a total stranger taking this child but we can't rule it out.
As far as any excuse for this mother being drunk when caring for three small kids...absolutely no excuse exists!...jmo

 

[LisaB]

Did someone else already cross-reference this case? Sorry if this is redundant:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55194&highlight=Harmony+Jade+Creech

Sean Bradley was also 82nd Airborne at Ft. Bragg when this occurred, if I am not mistaken. Was Deb still with him? This case would have been big news locally. Did she pick up some pointers?

 

[MsMacGyver]

I do know that if my child went missing my doors would be open 24/7 to LE. My other kids would be available 24/7 for LE to question. If LE wasn't at my house 24/7...I would be on the phone calling them. I would pass out on LE floor from exhaustion or malnutrition before I would take a break and short of LE waterboarding me, they could pull any dirty little trick they wanted on me as long as they were looking for my child. At one point I started to think these parents had lost a puppy instead of a baby.
If I hear that...you don't know how you would react in this situation one more time I'm going to crawl through my TV screen and choke the dog poop out of whomever says this. I know...that if I didn't have anything to hide...I could care less if people judge my actions. This mother thought of her own image before her missing daughter. The truth always comes out..may take a lifetime...but it always does...jmo

 

[southern_comfort]

I apologise Southern_comfort if my post came across as an attack on your personal views, or if it seemed I misrepresented them. I used your post as a jumping off point and was only talking about myself and how I feel about my personal definition of womanhood. I was just trying to make conversation.

Sorry for any offense.

No offense taken at all.

For the record, though, before people take off with this... I don't equate womanhood with motherhood. I'm frustrated and sickened by the number of comments I've seen all over the internet that attempt to justify the concept of drunken "adult time" for a lone mother after the kids are in bed. No matter what other roles she chooses to take on for herself, a mother is never really off duty, and absolutely not when she's failed to make other arrangements for her children's care. Yet I am seeing it from DB and all over the internet in the wake of this case: "Don't judge her! She is more than a mother. She is a person. She is entitled to and needs her 'me time'".

IMO, this mindset that led to a lost baby Lisa is the same mindset that leaves Madeleine alone in a hotel room while her parents dine out, or Caylee drugged to sleep while mom parties, or Gabriel's dead, blue body in a dumpster. It's a selfish sense of entitlement and a shirking of maternal responsibility that is bred of a number of causes, many of them (IMO) societal. It is the opposite of motherhood, it seems to be pervasive, and it is hurting our children and damaging society.

My list of contributing factors was not meant to be exhaustive or in any particular order, and I understand that theories and constructs can be abused and taken to extremes that were never intended by their founders. It's kind of like introducing the non-native kudzu vine to our gardens in my area. In the beginning, it looked great and everybody enjoyed the new and exotic landscape. But then it took on a life of its own, overgrew the native plants, choking and smothering them, damaging the area's natural ecosystem... and we are left struggling to pull the natural order out its wreckage.

 

[justbeachy]

Did someone else already cross-reference this case? Sorry if this is redundant:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55194&highlight=Harmony+Jade+Creech

Sean Bradley was also 82nd Airborne at Ft. Bragg when this occurred, if I am not mistaken. Was Deb still with him? This case would have been big news locally. Did she pick up some pointers?

Wow. The similarities are eerie. That baby was found in the attic, IIRC. I think we can safely say that baby Lisa is not in the home after yesterdays' marathon search.

This case is making me crazy. One way or another, baby Lisa needs to be found!!

 

[TexasCharm]

I do know that if my child went missing my doors would be open 24/7 to LE. My other kids would be available 24/7 for LE to question. If LE wasn't at my house 24/7...I would be on the phone calling them. I would pass out on LE floor from exhaustion or malnutrition before I would take a break and short of LE waterboarding me, they could pull any dirty little trick they wanted on me as long as they were looking for my child. At one point I started to think these parents had lost a puppy instead of a baby.
If I hear that...you don't know how you would react in this situation one more time I'm going to crawl through my TV screen and choke the dog poop out of whomever says this. I know...that if I didn't have anything to hide...I could care less if people judge my actions. This mother thought of her own image before her missing daughter. The truth always comes out..may take a lifetime...but it always does...jmo

Kinda like you would want to crawl across the table and choke the dog poop out of LE if they were more focused on YOU as a suspect, than finding the REAL suspect?

So go ahead a choke me .. nobody knows what has been said, what trusts have been violated, what accusations were made, etc. Let's pretend for a minute that DB is completely innocent (albeit not the best parent in the world) .... LE is not her friend at this point, are they? They, the media, US are all focused on her. IF she were innocent .. that is a HORRIBLE place to be...

(Having stated that, I am sliding off the fence on the side of her guilt ...)

 

[Chewy]

yup. And my daughters appreciate the work the women before them have put into gender roles, social issues, feminist theory. Because of those thing, they don't have to forego an education to get married at 14.

it's an extension of our parental obligation to make the world a better place for our children.

And now I am sitting on my hands and not typing another off topic word :innocent:

The reason it is off topic is because the baby is missing and the mother is drunk. When I say "time wasting" I don't mean that those issues are not worthy of discussion. I just think it is time wasting to try to argue those points when the basic needs of a child were obviously not taken care of in this case. I get very annoyed when people try to twist a clear case of child neglect into some sort of social debate.

EX. Casey Anthony's lawyer arguing that we are judging her harshly because society judges women who go out to party and don't conform to societal standards of a "grieving mom" and that this is our problem not hers.

Well, I'm going to see if I can pull myself away from my personal feelings of womanhood and my FEMINIST 4 LIFE: Hairy Armpits pamphlet, to prepare my 5 year old his breakfast.

It'll be hard to tear myself away, but I must.

*weeps*

I notice you start a lot of sarcastic posts and then turn around and say you were sorry and you don't mean it etc. I have no problem with any one's personal life choices.

Except ONE Don't have children if you don't want to be responsible for them. It is very unfair for a child to be raised by people who feel like there is something wrong in being expected to take care of your child well and raise them well. It doesn't mean that you have to be a stay at home mother or that you have no right for you time. But the focus is on the child. In these kinds of conversations you often see women justifying their bad parenting skills by trying to pretend that society is expecting some deranged sort of conformity. To me, if you are being looked at in the first place, it means you aren't doing it right. So stop worrying about the debates on motherhood, feminism, parental abuse and just take care of your child well and you won't have a problem.

The child deserves to be taken care of. That is all. Like I said, it ain't rocket science.

And in the interest of going OFF TOPIC I won't go there again. But I did want to make this clear.

 

[Chewy]

No offense taken at all.

For the record, though, before people take off with this... I don't equate womanhood with motherhood. I'm frustrated and sickened by the number of comments I've seen all over the internet that attempt to justify the concept of drunken "adult time" for a lone mother after the kids are in bed. No matter what other roles she chooses to take on for herself, a mother is never really off duty, and absolutely not when she's failed to make other arrangements for her children's care. Yet I am seeing it from DB and all over the internet in the wake of this case: "Don't judge her! She is more than a mother. She is a person. She is entitled to and needs her 'me time'".

IMO, this mindset that led to a lost baby Lisa is the same mindset that leaves Madeleine alone in a hotel room while her parents dine out, or Caylee drugged to sleep while mom parties, or Gabriel's dead, blue body in a dumpster. It's a selfish sense of entitlement and a shirking of maternal responsibility that is bred of a number of causes, many of them (IMO) societal. It is the opposite of motherhood, it seems to be pervasive, and it is hurting our children and damaging society.

My list of contributing factors was not meant to be exhaustive or in any particular order, and I understand that theories and constructs can be abused and taken to extremes that were never intended by their founders. It's kind of like introducing the non-native kudzu vine to our gardens in my area. In the beginning, it looked great and everybody enjoyed the new and exotic landscape. But then it took on a life of its own, overgrew the native plants, choking and smothering them, damaging the area's natural ecosystem... and we are left struggling to pull the natural order out its wreckage.

This is a great post. This is what is bugging me when I say "feminist" I do agree that feminists did not fight for us to become bad mothers. I think that when people start discussing their "me rights" when small children are involved it literally pisses me off. Didn't you get the memo that says there are no "me rights" when you have small kids? And when you already have children and then have more children and then say you need a break......sorry. And I agree about the insidious nature of the way it's becoming more and more excusable to worry about the mother more than the child. Yes CA and the McCaans come to mind. I still do not know how these people are not in jail.

 

[cobalt sky]

I have been trying to follow this case as best as I can as time permits, little Lisa has truly captured my heart! I am in the process of developing my theory but there seems to be so little to work with. Based on what I know at this point, I do not believe that Lisa disappeared due to any type of tragic accident, nor do I believe that she was abducted by a stranger.

As for Deb, perhaps I am the world's most gullible fool, i dunno... but when I watch video of her especially in the first few days I see raw pain, confusion, and helplessness. I think it is sometimes hard to remember how young she is, she is only 25, yet looks at least 10 years older. To me she seems to be rather naive and unsophisticated... also, I don't have any better way to explain this but... she seems "hard", as though she has not had an easy life. Some people are raised to keep their emotions inside, and some present their pain and hurt by lashing out and becoming defensive. That is what I see in Deb. Based on what we know at this point, I do not believe that Deb is responsible for Lisa's disappearance. How would Deb benefit from "getting rid of" Lisa? I keep coming back to a comment she made early on re: Lisa ~ "she has completed our family". Lisa is her connection to JI, who has put her and her other son up in his home and goes to work to support her. There seems to be no evidence thus far that Deb was having an affair or wanted to leave him. How would harming Lisa be beneficial to Deb? And again, I don't think Lisa's disappearance is due to any accident.

I also do not believe that DI & JI are in on this together, that they harmed/disposed of Lisa together and covered it up. I mean really, if it's true, then DI is quite a trooper dontcha think??? ... taking 95% of the heat for the both of them while JI pretty much is getting a pass.

I believe that Deb's original story/timeline is the actual truth. I believe that she had a few drinks but she was not drunk. I believe that she is changing her story either 1) because someone (JI) is manipulating her into doing so to serve their own purpose or 2) her attorney has instructed her to do so.

I have strong suspicions about Jeremy. He reminds me of some people I have encountered in my life, I will call them the "dumb downs" (DD's) because that's what they do, they dumb themselves down in public when necessary for a self-serving purpose. The DD's often appear shy, quiet, weak and helpless, and sometimes can appear to be missing a chromosome or two. This is how they present themselves in public, but in reality, they are very intelligent, cunning, and manipulative... "dumb like a fox". Notice how from the get-go JI has stayed in the background, putting a majority of the PR responsibility on DB, letting her take the heat. From the beginning he has planted seeds of doubt about her: for example the comment re: someone who "cheats on their husband", his body language, pulling away from her/not really hugging her back, when he is asked if Deb is telling the truth his response is "soft" in her favor, he never vigorously defends her... all in order to give LE/the public the impression that he is suspicious of her. I also loved how during an interview he spoke of how Lisa's disappearance has actually brought him and DB CLOSER and then cracked a little smile... to me, that could be his subtle way of suggesting a motive for her to harm Lisa. And after all, he couldn't have done it, right?... he has an alibi... or so he would like us to believe. If I'm right about him, he will continue to present himself as the not-so-bright "poor grieving babydaddy" who is a saint for sticking by his "obviously guilty" baby momma, he will never outright accuse her but will continue to plant seeds of doubt, especially when alone with LE. He will slowly detach himself from her. WHY didn't LE give JI a lie detector test??? This speaks volumes to me, a master manipulator at work.

I have much more to say about JI and other theories I have, I guess I would discuss my theories on a theory thread? I am really distured about the way that DI has been basically crucified in the media and elsewhere. I really don't think there is enough evidence at this point to be sure of her guilt.

And I want to know why DB was given a lie detector and not JI. I want to know what time JI got to work, what time he really left work, if anyone(s) can account for all of the time he claims he was there. I want to know if JI was assigned to work night shift or if he requested to work night shift. I want to know more about the relationship between JI, DB, and the neighbor who had drinks with DB that evening.

Ok enough for now, I have so many thoughts racing through my mind... God bless you baby Lisa, wherever you are ...

All of the above is my opinion and thoughts only!!!

 

[Minette]

I do understand what you are saying, but you lost me in the first sentence, where you lamented that "mothers get held responsible out of all proportion".

Being a mother is a gigantic responsibility. Completely innocent, helpless human beings depend on their mothers to a degree that is "out of all proportion". It makes perfect sense that a mother's responsibility to nurture and protect is, likewise, out of all proportion. It IS out of all proportion.

We, as a society, have forgotten how naturally immense a mother's responsibility is. In the age of feminism and working mothers and abortion and villages, we have forgotten! There is no substitute for what a mother used to provide (and still does in some cases... thank you, to those moms). I, personally, do not feel that anything is gained for womanhood when we forsake motherhood. To the contrary: What we lose is immeasurable.

This isn't directed at you, but I'll take the opportunity to say that I am appalled at the attitudes I've seen about mothering in the wake of this. I truly had no idea that things had reached this state. Every time I see someone defend the idea of a mother getting drunk while having sole responsibility for an infant... as though there can be any excuse for it at all!!!!... my jaw drops and I quite literally have to sit here for a moment, speechless, and heartbroken for all of these children.

Wow, I did not mean to set off a firestorm about feminism, nor am I condoning irresponsible parenting. What I said--please read my post again!--was that she was being held more responsible than the man who actually hit and killed her son because she is the mother. This is an example of what I mean when I say 'out of all proportion.' Did I say I think she was a responsible parent and should be let off scot-free? No I did not. Did I say 'awwww, give her a break' because I'm a feminist?? No I did not. She was negligent, yes, and put her child in the way of harm, yes, but SHE DID NOT KILL HIM. To hold her more responsible than the three-time hit and run driver who did hit and kill her son is out of all proportion, yes, IMO. Do we have one set of laws for parents and another set for non-parents in this country? No. We are a country in which people are entitled to equal justice/punishment or we are not.

Being a PARENT is an enormous responsibility, period. I don't excuse DB getting drunk while having the care of three young children. It was stupid and irresponsible, and if someone else did come in and do something to Lisa, then she shares responsibility for not being able to protect her child due to her own actions. She put her in harm's way. But she is not MORE responsible than any third-party who may have taken and harmed her child, IMO.

Of course, if she did something to Lisa herself then all questions of degree concerning her responsibility are out the window.

Back on to the topic of the thread, I am still on the fence although I have to say every time DB opens her mouth my perch gets a little shakier. I just need to see something tangible before coming down on the 'she did it' side. I personally cannot 'convict' her of grievous harm to her child because she may be a bad mommy, that's all.

 

[southern_comfort]

I understood your post just fine. I just disagree... and oddly, agree at the same time. I agree that a mother's responsibility is disproportionate. But I think that lack of proportion is natural and right.

It doesn't really matter to me whether the child darted in front of a person with prior hit and run convictions or Mother Theresa on her way back to the convent after volunteering at the leper colony. It's how and why the child landed in front of a moving vehicle and was killed that matters to me.

Proportionally, nobody should have or feel a greater duty and instinct to protect a child than the child's mother. IMO, nothing even comes close.

I feel much the same about this case. I want to know what happened to Lisa, and I want her to be found, and if there is a third person involved then I want that person to be held accountable. But, whatever has happened to Lisa - and whoever lands in jail, for however long - the ultimate culpability will lay where it lays, and that will not change in my eyes.

 

[100%Agave]

I voted Not Sure but truthfully, how many more of these do we have to see before we come to the realization that most of the time there is no big, bad boogey man hiding around the corner to hurt our kids. It is the monster at home that we need to protect our kids from.

 

[Minette]

I understood your post just fine. I just disagree... and oddly, agree at the same time. I agree that a mother's responsibility is disproportionate. But I think that lack of proportion is natural and right.

We can agree to disagree, that is 100% OK! I'm not always right. In fact, I remember being wrong once. It was in 1994, a Tuesday, I believe. :floor laugh:

I do understand what you are saying, and we can share a cupcake because we are both such reasonable people. :cupcake:

 

[vlpate]

This is a great post. This is what is bugging me when I say "feminist" I do agree that feminists did not fight for us to become bad mothers. I think that when people start discussing their "me rights" when small children are involved it literally pisses me off. Didn't you get the memo that says there are no "me rights" when you have small kids? And when you already have children and then have more children and then say you need a break......sorry. And I agree about the insidious nature of the way it's becoming more and more excusable to worry about the mother more than the child. Yes CA and the McCaans come to mind. I still do not know how these people are not in jail.

I'm keeping a baby of 2 right now and until Sunday. I got her sick and now I am sick (cold). I would LOVE to take some nyquil and take a long nap. Sore throat, head hurts, congestion, non-stop runny nose - and she is sufferring from the same. The difference between us is she depends on me to take care of her, wipe her nose, give her meds, give her juice, make breakfast, lunch and dinner, bathe her, dress her...make sure she is warm enough and if she cries, I hear her. I cannot imagine sitting down with a box of wine and not even checking on her for hours, especially if I put her down at 6:30. Lisa was on 11 months, to me that is worse. Hell, I have to wait for her to take a nap to take a shower. I think about little Lisa all day every day - how can a mother get snot-slinging drunk while taking care of a baby, especially a sick baby.

Deborah Bradley is just as guilty as anyone else who had anything to do with the disappearance of baby Lisa - she was in charge of her saifety and she ignored that responsibility for her ME time, whatever. Seriously, whatEVER. IMO

 

[Whocanitbenow]

I'm keeping a baby of 2 right now and until Sunday. I got her sick and now I am sick (cold). I would LOVE to take some nyquil and take a long nap. Sore throat, head hurts, congestion, non-stop runny nose - and she is sufferring from the same. The difference between us is she depends on me to take care of her, wipe her nose, give her meds, give her juice, make breakfast, lunch and dinner, bathe her, dress her...make sure she is warm enough and if she cries, I hear her. I cannot imagine sitting down with a box of wine and not even checking on her for hours, especially if I put her down at 6:30. Lisa was on 11 months, to me that is worse. Hell, I have to wait for her to take a nap to take a shower. I think about little Lisa all day every day - how can a mother get snot-slinging drunk while taking care of a baby, especially a sick baby.

Deborah Bradley is just as guilty as anyone else who had anything to do with the disappearance of baby Lisa - she was in charge of her saifety and she ignored that responsibility for her ME time, whatever. Seriously, whatEVER. IMO

Hmm.. So we should never do anything or drink at all because of the kids? I know a lot of people that think nothing of putting the kids down and sitting in the back yard with friends and neighbors and drinking.. Is that negligence? I don't think so. I do not drink at all actually, but if I never had me time I would lose my mind. I just hate to see people turn on a mom so fast.

There have been plenty of children taken when their parents were stone cold sober , just sleeping..

I am not condoning her getting drunk, If she was, Still not sure how much.. but I still do not think that lets the creep off the hook that took her.

 

[vlpate]

Hmm.. So we should never do anything or drink at all because of the kids? I know a lot of people that think nothing of putting the kids down and sitting in the back yard with friends and neighbors and drinking.. Is that negligence? I don't think so. I do not drink at all actually, but if I never had me time I would lose my mind. I just hate to see people turn on a mom so fast.

There have been plenty of children taken when their parents were stone cold sober , just sleeping..

I am not condoning her getting drunk, If she was, Still not sure how much.. but I still do not think that lets the creep off the hook that took her.

I think having a drink or two with dinner and maintaining your ability to check on THREE kids you are in charge of, and getting tanked to the point you don't remember if you checked on them or not, are two different things. Getting a baby sitter and going out, having drinks till midnight or 2 a.m., not a big deal - what Deborah did would not pass muster if you were hring a babysitter, would it??

Seriously, if the babysitter you were about to leave your three kids with, one an infant, told you she was going to drink to the point of blacking out....or just to the point of "drunk", would you leave the kids and feel good about it?

I never said the "creep" is off the hook and I don't believe the "creep" should be off the hook. Sort of like if I leave my purse in my car with money hanging out of it and someone breaks in and steals it, I'm at fault AS WELL as the theif - we are both equally as stupid.

 

[stilettos]

I respect your feelings, but not every woman bases her measure of womanhood on motherhood.

I sure as hell don't. My son means more to me than anyone in this world, but I'm not defined by my ability to have babies. Some women "forsake" motherhood because they don't have maternal instincts, don't want babies. In their case, it's the responsible thing to do. My womanhood is directly related to my honour, character, and strong code of ethics. I'd rather be a woman on my own terms rather than because of my uterus. The uterus is a happenstance of nature; my position in life and how I got where I am today, is not.

I've not forgotten; I'll just be damned if someone else gets to define what make me a woman.*

*Not saying you did this, it's just a general comment.

e2a: This was just some of my random personal thoughts on my own womanhood. I respect your views very much and didn't mean this post as a challenge, or debate with you. I was just musing.

:truce:This is not about anyone's uterus, position in life nor their "womanhood" It is about a missing baby and a blackout drunk Mom. I don't think anyone's rights as a woman or mother preclude them from being responsible parents. If you are blackout drunk and the sole caregiver for minor children that is child abuse. IMO.