Discussion Thread #60 - 14.9.12 ~ the appeal~

[mrjitty]

Ok thanks. I think I understand it now. The relationship between all the different legal issues are confusing.

Its because of the stupid way the judgement is drafted.

If she has simply approached it as a case of erroneous self defence - it would be logical.

 

[44ALLAN]

NPA spokesperson Nathi Mncube explained what would happen if the SCA were to uphold the state’s appeal.

“Automatically, once a person has been convicted of murder, the court would then have to consider an appropriate sentence,” he said. “Our argument is that an appropriate sentence for murder can definitely not be the sentence that has been imposed here. So it would have to be a minimum sentence, in terms of the Minimum Sentence Act, which is 15 years’ imprisonment.”

He said the NPA couldn’t speculate on the timeline that would be involved, but as the SCA doesn’t sit all year round, and the amount of paperwork and preparation that will be required render it’s unlikely that the appeal will be heard for the best part of 2015.

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...ould-yet-be-convicted-of-murder/#.VIsIlyxxnBw

Why are these people commenting on 'what might' happen and 'if it does' we expect this etc etc...........
Highly innapropriate if you ask me from 'so called' professionals and government servants.
Surely it should be.............'No comment whilst the trial and the appeal is still taking place' ?.

I'm highly sceptical they are making these comments to be truthful.

But if they are .................well it sums this whole trial up...............a complete farce IMO.

And just to throw a spanner in the works.................Grant IMO should be silent too whilst 'assisting' the state.
Totally unprofessional in my view..............tweeting and gobbing on.............amateurish and can't help the cause one jot if you ask me

 

[Sherbert]

Yes pandax81 posts great stuff.

What I would comment is that the identity of the human may not matter technically - but it matters in terms of the practicalities of legal proof.

If the Court had accepted he knew Reeva was behind the door, then practically OP would have an impossible job to convince the Court that he didn't intend directly to kill her. Why else shoot her?

When the Court accepts the intruder version then OP can have legitimate direct intentions of self defence, so the easiest standard the state can meet is DE. They don't need to prove more.

I agree in theory you can say OP intentionally wanted to kill the intruder - but I think the state was nowhere close to proving that and Masipa's findings rule it out now.

In any event - the question should have been was it lawful.

BBM

Good point. But what an absolute farce that, after all this, we're still likely to be stuck with that most elusive of creatures - the mysterious mythical intruder who lives only in the damp, dark recesses of OP's fevered imagination, allegedly.

I suspect that very few of the early PPD cases relate to a situation where the 'putative' refers to the imagined existence of a third party, as opposed to an incorrect assessment by a defendant of the degree of danger posed by a third party.

 

[L2L]

OMG! After reading his previous violent history, he should have been put away years ago!

 

[JudgeJudi]

2014 South African Person of the Year: 2nd Runners-up, Oscar Pistorius and Shrien Dewani

The Daily Maverick’s Person of the Year reflects those who have dominated headlines during the year and cast some kind of spotlight on an aspect of South African society or public life.

The one thing both men shared was access to money and influence.

The day after OP’s arrest, former UK tabloid editor Stuart Higgins was already on his way to Pretoria from London to assist with a “communications strategy” while “Dewani’s family called in Max Clifford, the UK’s king of spin. It’s alleged that one of Clifford’s first moves was to plant a story in Britain’s ‘Mirror’ denying rumours that Dewani was having an affair with a female manager in the family firm, in order to counter the allegations that Dewani was secretly gay.

Both men had the necessary funds to hire top legal teams, with the OP camp allegedly approaching a forensic scientist who testified for OJ Simpson. OP’s legal bill was said to top R17 million, and his upcoming appeal will presumably take him well beyond this. To fight his extradition, Dewani turned to the services of barristers at London’s Matrix Chambers which features some of the UK’s leading human rights lawyers. For his SA trial he procured one of the top legal minds in the country, Advocate Francois van Zyl.

In the case of both men, lawyers argued that they would be especially “vulnerable” to life in prison. While Dewani fought extradition from the UK to stand trial in South Africa, his legal team said he had severe post-traumatic stress disorder and that his high profile, wealth and looks could see his human rights infringed behind bars.

OP’s lawyers said that his disability and “psychological weakness” would make him a target in jail. Defence witness Annette Vergeer, a probation officer, testified to the court that “ his disability and state of mind would cause his detention to be an excessive punishment”.

“State prosecutor Gerrie Nel and witness Zach Modise – the acting national correctional services commissioner – used the fact of Dewani’s extradition as evidence that South Africa’s prisons were fit for purpose even for those who feel “very vulnerable”, a category Modise put both Dewani and Pistorius into”.

In both cases, it was the criminality of black South Africans that was ultimately pinpointed as being at the heart of the two crimes. OP would never have shot through a door if he had not feared that a black intruder was breaking into his home to harm him. Dewani’s defence maintained that his wife’s death was a botched hijacking and robbery by the black men already convicted of Hindocha’s murder which had nothing to do with their client.

In both cases, the quality of police work in the investigations has come in for strong criticism. Hilton Botha, came under fire for his initial handling of the crime scene, including a failure to wear protective covers on his shoes. One vital piece of evidence – the toilet door – was not treated with sufficient care.

In the Dewani case, the ballistics investigation was flawed - the fact that police only transcribed telephone discussions about the murder three months before trial and the fact that no investigations diary was kept. State witnesses offered a plea bargain by the NPA were found to be so unreliable on the stand that in one case an immunity deal has now been revoked.

“We should acknowledge that even that defective work represents the top end of South Africa’s two-tier criminal justice system: one for the rich, one for the poor. What, then, are we left with? Two men cleared of murder. One in jail, perhaps not for very long. One totally free”.

The verdict in the OP trial attracted the charge that Masipa may have mis-applied the law: a charge the appeal court will now have to consider. The Dewani verdict seems far less ambiguous: Traverso said that the evidence was simply too flimsy to proceed.

“They are two verdicts which have left many greatly unhappy: the families of both women, but also many ordinary South Africans. Some will argue that these verdicts give substance to the idea of a society where women can be killed with impunity; that they may even embolden those who beat, or rape, or murder women in South Africa. But perhaps we can take comfort in the fact that the judges presiding over the trials were manifestly un-swayed by the court of public opinion – or, for that matter, by political pressure”.

When the Gauteng Premier attended the OP trial, she made a point of seeking out state witnesses to thank them for their testimony against the athlete. The ANC Women’s League in both cases expressed disappointment with the verdicts.

”But these politicians sounding off about the trials clearly made not a jot of difference. If there is a positive takeaway message here, it is that the independence of the South African judiciary has been tested and found to be resolute".

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...car-pistorius-and-shrien-dewani/#.VIuYSiz9mFc

 

[Lux et Veritas]

This is the final version. There are a couple of new entries, amendments and additional information. The Van der Burgh/Batchelor incidents have been changed yet again after much checking.

Feb 14, 2006 - Nodded off at the wheel after setting off for Vicky Miles’ house, 400 miles from his, at 3am after they had a blistering row. One side of the vehicle was completely destroyed.

2008 - At the pre-games training camp for the Beijing Paralympics he phoned David O’Sullivan and raged about what he perceived to be an inadequate training kit. His fury caught O’Sullivan by surprise. OP “knew he couldn’t be ignored and his anger would ensure his demands were met”.

2008 – OP’s ex-stylist, Francois Louw, witnessed a terrifying temper tantrum whilst they worked together to create a fragrance. When there was an issue when delivering the finished products, OP screamed, swore, kicked the garage door, went inside and screamed even louder, swearing constantly. He also threatened Louw’s family.

Sept 12, 2009 - Cassidy Taylor-Memmory charged OP with assault when he punched a door so hard a piece broke and fell on her leg following an argument with his then girlfriend, Melissa Rom.

Feb 21, 2009 – Crashed his boat into a relatively new pier on the Vaal River which shattered his face and nearly cost him his life. He lied when he said that 1) the pier was submerged; 2) it happened at sunset (it was after 10pm); 3) he hadn’t been drinking (he was seen drinking in a river pub and 3 empty bottles of liquor were found on his boat. He was never breath tested).

A further individual had an altercation with OP on the river that same evening which occurred “long” after sunset but before the boating accident took place.

Sept 6, 2011 - Stormed out of a BBC radio interview after taking exception to a question about his fight to take part in non-disabled athletics.

Oct 2011 – At a Kings of Leon concert he was very drunk and stumbled into a group of people. Later, two women were practically shoved off their feet by an aggressive OP. One told him his behaviour was rude and unacceptable. He was extremely abusive to the two women, calling them “*advertiser censored**ing lesbians”. One of the women said “What is your problem?” to which he replied, “I’m drunk, what’s yours?”

June/July, 2012 - Attends shooting range with friends, including Francois Hougaard, and fires at a watermelon which explodes. He says,” It’s a lot softer than brain, but *advertiser censored**, it feels like a zombie stopper.”

July/Aug 2012 - Temper tantrum at London Paralympics when he loses a race to Brazilian, Alan Oliveira whom he wrongly accuses of using illegal blades. Following his outburst on the track he was taken to an underground room where he went on a 2 hour rampage, shouting, screaming, crying, hitting tables, kicking walls and throwing furniture around. Each time Paralympic chiefs went into the room to try and calm him down they saw a fresh escalation of his hysterical reaction.

Room-mate, Arnu Fourie changes rooms to get away from OP’s constant screaming on the phone.

Sept 2012 - Enraged by jealousy, confronts and swears at Quinton van der Burgh at the Kyalami racetrack about his relationship with Sam Taylor. He said he would break his legs and *advertiser censored** him up.

Sept 2012 - Started sending threatening SMSes to Van der Burgh.

Sept 30, 2012 - Shoots through the sunroof of a car.

Nov 2012 - Marc Batchelor, a friend of van der Burgh got involved and he and OP exchanged threatening SMSes. Threatened to break Marc Batchelor’s legs.

Nov 2012 – Divaris arranged a meeting with the Hawks to settle the dispute. Batchelor said OP turned up with a black eye and stitches in his head because he had been involved in a fight at a party the night before. Schultz said, “He was so pissed he fell and cut his head. He was dancing with his gun”.

Jan 2013 - Tasha’s shooting incident

Jan 2013 – Turned up for filming at “It Gets Better” gay and lesbian youth campaign with a very angry looking black eye

Feb 2013 - Shoots and kills Reeva

Apr 2013 - 52 days after killing Reeva he turned up, uninvited, at a private party in Illovo, Joburg, hosted by a businessman. Guests said he was drunk, knocking back one drink after the other, including tequila shots. He hit on Kesiah Frank, a beautiful blonde model who holds a law degree. He asked her to dance and flirted with her repeatedly until she made it clear she was not interested.

Apr 6, 2013 - Out partying with friends at the Kitchen Bar restaurant, throwing back shooters and patted a friend’s girlfriend on the bottom. Patrons were shocked and thought it horribly insensitive to go out for drinks with friends so soon after Reeva's death.

After leaving the Kitchen Bar he went across the road to the Buddha Ta cocktail lounge accompanied by Craig Lipschitz who was involved in a vicious brawl with former bouncer, Guil Yahav. Lipschitz is always accompanied by 4 bodyguards. Yahav was implicated in the vicious murder of another bouncer, Patrick Caetano who was hacked to death with a butcher’s knife at the Kyalami Business Park and was caught on CCTV.

July 2014 – OP attended The VIP Room nightclub with Guil Yahav. He was intoxicated and got involved in an argument with Jared Mortimer. The club’s bouncers were asked to remove him after he then got into a confrontation with another man.


Miscellaneous:

2002 - At 15 he was allowed to drive Carl’s car illegally around Pretoria

2004 - Bought his first car when he was 17, too young for a driver’s licence

Mothers had to remove their children from the gym because of his continual swearing. He was known to rant and rave as he struggled to complete the simplest of routines, would stalk out in a fury, returning only when his anger had expired.

His biographer Gianni Merlo said, "He could get very furious suddenly"

He really is a nasty piece of work.

Reeva had the great misfortune to walk into this IED.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

@Judgejudi, the scary part is those incidents are only what we know about. You can bet there were many more that were kept hush hush, I'm sure there are some that even his family may not know about.

Exactly, Val. No doubt his well-oiled, well-paid PR Spin Machine (under the iron hand of Uncle Arnie) has been a modern marvel since 2004.

 

[ColonelMustard]

Vandals hurl white paint at Shrien Dewani’s family home

https://metro.co.uk/2014/12/11/vandals-hurl-white-paint-at-shrien-dewanis-family-home-4983245/

'Get out of jail free' card left outside Shrien Dewani's family home

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ica-following-honeymoon-murder-acquittal.html


I'm not a vindictive vengeful person, at heart, but I must say that I'm grateful to whomever is responsible and I hope they keep it up PLUS some. Why? Because I think he's guilty as sin and I hate rich people buying their own kind of "justice."

I can't say that OP won't get some of the same treatment when he gets out. Unless he completely changes his appearance, OP is much more recognizable than Dewani. Even so, I figure Dewani will eventually be forced to head to India to get lost in the crowds.

 

[ColonelMustard]

You know, it's not just that Dewani/OP completely or essentially got away with these murders, it's their smug arrogance - and their family's that makes me see red rats. I'm sorry but if either of my sons did something heinous, I'd still love them but 1) They'd better admit it. 2) Tell the truth 3) Be sincerely sorry 4) Do their time. 5) Never whine 6) Be humble 7) Be a positive force for good in jail/prison.

Then, again, I remain haunted by something I read many years ago written by a female Cauacasian American suburbanite:
From American Mom Motherhood, Politics, and Humble Pie by Mary Kay Blakely 1994 pp 14-20 (My emphasis). I share it here for anyone who might be interested.

A "SNAPSHOT" feature in USA Today a few years earlier briefly listed the five greatest concerns parents and teachers had about children in the '5 Os: talking out of turn, chewing gum in class, doing homework, stepping out of line, cleaning their rooms. Then it listed the five top concerns of parents today: drug addiction, teenage pregnancy, suicide and homicide, gang violence, anorexia and bulimia. We can also add AIDS, poverty, and homelessness. Change takes time? Between my own childhood and the advent of my motherhood-one short generation-the culture had gone completely mad.

While my sturdy support network saved my sanity during my sons' early childhood, it was indispensable during the mindracking years of adolescence, when the stakes rose precipitously and upped the guilt ante beyond any individual woman's resources. In an ideal society, mothers and fathers would produce potty-trained, civilized, responsible new citizens while government and corporate leaders would provide a safe, healthy, economically just community. But it was not our luck to live in an ideal world. Given the violence and greed and myopic leadership of the past two decades, a young man coming of age in the United States today faces treacherous curves and dangerous potholes on the way to every destination.

By the time my sons entered the second half of high school, every one of the grim realities in USA Today had shown up in the lives of their classmates and friends. It was impossible to assure myself that I didn't have to worry about my sons getting involved with guns or drugs. They and I both knew kids in our neighborhood, kids who regularly sat around our own kitchen table, who were. The scary reports about racial tensions and domestic violence in America were not abstractions to us. We have always lived right down the block, right next door to them, in our "good neighborhoods" as well as the bad.

Raising sons forever changed the way I read the newspapers. Desperate for an answer to "How could this be?" I would read and reread stories about the six teenage "wilders" from the Bronx who brutally assaulted a jogger in Central Park and left her in a coma; the half-dozen members of the California Spur Posse who proudly tallied their sexual conquests-including that of a twelve-year-old girl; the four high school athletes in Glen Ridge, New Jersey, who gang-raped a mentally retarded young woman with baseball bats and broom handles while nine others looked on. These stories seared me.

Invariably, my imagination would heat up and I would see six poor mothers in the Bronx, nine middle-class mothers in California, thirteen well-to-do mothers in New Jersey: I felt certain I knew exactly how their hearts must be breaking. I could also imagine what might be going on inside the tortured mind of Joel Steinberg's mother, after the bloody images of Hedda Nussbaum and five-year-old Lisa Steinberg convinced a jury of her son's guilt. To the bitter end of the trial, his mother refused to believe her son capable of such violent battery and murder. She built a case against Hedda, portraying her as a lousy mother, a drug abuser, so out of control she must have been "asking for it"-something, anything, to explain this alien son in the news, not the boy she once knew, not the son she so carefully raised. The choices I saw for her, listening to long months of shocking testimony, were these: Deny reality, or start weeping and never stop.

"You raise your children knowing them intimately;' novelist Rosellen Brown said, "but then you reach a point where that's no longer true?' It takes twenty or so years before a mother can know with any certainty how effective her theories have been- and even then there are surprises. The daily newspapers raise the most frightening questions of all for a mother of sons: Could my once sweet babes ever become violent men? Are my sons really who I think they are?​

 

[Mr Fossil]

June Steenkamp holds out for truth in death of her daughter

http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/...holds-out-for-truth-in-death-of-her-daughter/

 

[zwiebel]

A little off topic but I started a thread for Christmas cards, or just greetings, in every language we speak here at WS. Just one response so far. It would be wonderful to see seasonal greetings from any of the languages spoken in SA there...Be prepared for something of a Santa surprise though, if you follow the link. It's Venice Beach...Good heavens.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...stmas-in-any-language-what-s-yours&p=11299164

 

[Mr Fossil]

Oscar's Christmas tuck-in

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-christmas-tuck-in-1.1795163#.VIy2ciusV8E

 

[soozieqtips]

Oscar's Christmas tuck-in

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/oscar-s-christmas-tuck-in-1.1795163#.VIy2ciusV8E

His stomach may not be full, but at least there are church services to "feed his soul"

 

[JudgeJudi]

David Dadic retweeted

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · Dec 10

Cases of Seekoei 1982 AD, Nzimande 2010 SCA, and even Blom 1939 AD all now: under review - subject to further notice. ��

 

[Mr Fossil]

Worth reading some of James Grant's twitter conversations (tweets with replies) for the last few days

https://twitter.com/CriminalLawZA/with_replies

For example:

James Harrison ‏@HarrisonSea Dec 11
@CriminalLawZA next year SCA overturns OP conviction - guilty of murder, sentence 15yrs. What can OP do then? ConCourt? #hypothetical

James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA
@HarrisonSea Yep, I expect, #OP willing, this will go to the Con Court on some issues.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Really?

"By the time I’m 50, I hope to be married with a family, dog and white picket fence around my house. Owning a restaurant is a dream. I love food and working with people."

"... a dog". I bet it won't be another silent, playful pit bull. Next time it will be a snarling, highly trained guard dog with a propensity to go for the throat.

"... a white picket fence around my house". I think maybe a 20' high brick wall, barbed wire and broken glass on top of it, electronic sensors, and a moat filled with crocodiles might be more the go. If he can't legally own guns, what will he use to protect himself while at home?

"... working with people"? I'm unaware of him ever having worked with people. Maybe he'll get work experience in prison.

http://fandaily.info/celebrity-coup...ar-pistorius-girlfriend-or-is-it-vicky-miles/

Bitterly ironic - that's exactly what he destroyed on Feb. 14 2013 ... his white picket fence dream.

(I wonder what happened to poor Enzo and Silo. I have a very strong feeling Uncle Arnie and Aunt Lois are NOT dog people. Oscar refers to Enzo in his testimony in the past tense. It's stunning how just ONE raging moment has such profoundly far-reaching effects and destroys so much.)

 

[jay-jay]

Bitterly ironic - that's exactly what he destroyed on Feb. 14 2013 ... his white picket fence dream.

(I wonder what happened to poor Enzo and Silo. I have a very strong feeling Uncle Arnie and Aunt Lois are NOT dog people. Oscar refers to Enzo in his testimony in the past tense. It's stunning how just ONE raging moment has such profoundly far-reaching effects and destroys so much.)

BBM .. I also wondered what became of his pet monkey :cry:

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Its because of the stupid way the judgement is drafted.

If she has simply approached it as a case of erroneous self defence - it would be logical.

Stupid judgement is right. It (like the sentence) was drafted by a very calculating, very deceitful judge. This “mess” of a verdict (as you so aptly describe) could not have been otherwise.

Like Oscar’s highly tailored versions(s) and multiple defenses, Masipa was forced to twist the law, slice and dice the facts and evidence to narrowly fit her goal. She incorporated only those bits and pieces that helped serve her ruling. She encountered the same problem that plagued Oscar - who “creatively” tried to present ridiculous, circular bullsh#t as the “truth”.

In a certain crucial respect, Masipa’s a worse liar than OP, as she’s sworn to uphold the law and ostensibly, the truth. She failed spectacularly - she backed up his lies with the force of (arbitrary) “law” ... hers.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

BBM

Good point. But what an absolute farce that, after all this, we're still likely to be stuck with that most elusive of creatures - the mysterious mythical intruder who lives only in the damp, dark recesses of OP's fevered imagination, allegedly.

I suspect that very few of the early PPD cases relate to a situation where the 'putative' refers to the imagined existence of a third party, as opposed to an incorrect assessment by a defendant of the degree of danger posed by a third party.

So very well said, Sherbert.

Entirely lost in Masipa’s ruling is the one crucial key that should have driven this case. Oscar never faced any threat - ZERO. How is a closed, locked door ever a “threat”? He was NEVER in danger. This is not simply a technicality - it’s the very heart of SA gun laws.

That a seasoned judge would allow a murder defendant to skate to the safety of PPD on the amorphous, illusory basis of alleged “sound” and “noise” is beyond the pale.

In essence, her ruling creates a new defense to murder:

Actual or imminent ATTACK is no longer required to claim PPD - merely claimed perceptions of “fear”, “terror”, “sounds” and “noise”.

How frightening is that? The Oscar Defense will become the new get-out-of-jail-free card.

How could the SCA ever uphold such a horrific, dangerous precedent?

 

[zwiebel]

With the burden of attending court proceedings lifted, June Steenkamp looks transformed. I could really see Reeva in her during this interview. It's so sad that her and Barry's burden could not have been lightened a little more by the reassurance they had heard the truth in court. I really do believe vengeance was not their aim and that more truthful, straightforward testimony would ultimately have been better for Oscar Pistorius and his family, as well as Reeva's.

http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/...holds-out-for-truth-in-death-of-her-daughter/