do you think maddie is alive or dead

[blefuscu]

It seems they are good enough for the FBI but not for people who really have no real expertise in the area! If you know better than the FBI then great. I know who I would prefer to be looking into my case if, god forbid, I needed something researched for me.

 

[Jmoose]

Sure they are.. I was reading about a how the dogs are reward trained and so that can skew a dog depending on his desire for a treat.

They are dogs.. Not computers.. anything living is fallible..


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - the cadaver dog

Well, dogs can't have opinions...are you really saying that you know for a fact that the dogs were bribed with treats to hit where they did?

 

[SapphireSteel]

There reliable in the us good enough for me!

They are reliable in every other case apart from Madeleine's.

People should stop and think before casting aspersions on the honesty of unrelated professionals. Why it is ok to do to those helping solve the case, yet not those who caused the case, is beyond me.

That's not LEGAL...it's slander, libel or defamation, whichever name you wish.

People can and do get prosecuted for slander on the internet.

:scared:

 

[Gem2626]

You could say that.

You could also say that "the video" is a heavily edited version of what took days to organise and achieve. Yes he guides the dogs, but it is more to focus their attention. These dogs are being literally bombarded by odor molecules, they get very excited. In fact one of the dogs went off before she even got into the building...how was that "cued"? How did they "cue" them into ignoring the other cars?

Indeed, the original session was initially postponed because they couldn't find somewhere clean enough to hold it.

If he was cueing, the cleanliness or otherwise of the surroundings wouldn't matter.

So you are saying that the British expert, hired and brought in by the British police, was involved in an organised manufacturing of "evidence"?

Very serious charges right there...what's his motive? Grime's livelihood is these dogs getting it right!

:cow:

Whether he meant to or not he is showing that that car is more important than the others by standing there and constantly calling the dog back. He shouts at her to come back. He didn't shout at her to come back to any of the other cars. He was telling her that that car was the important one. She had a sniff and off she went she wasn't interested in it.

It was not a controlled experiment the results don't hold up.

 

[Jmoose]

Whether he meant to or not he is showing that that car is more important than the others by standing there and constantly calling the dog back. He shouts at her to come back. He didn't shout at her to come back to any of the other cars. He was telling her that that car was the important one. She had a sniff and off she went she wasn't interested in it.

It was not a controlled experiment the results don't hold up.

What experience do you have with "working dogs"? I work with guard dogs on a daily basis, and don't believe you can see from this video every bit of the work that these dogs do-the video was edited

 

[SapphireSteel]

Whether he meant to or not he is showing that that car is more important than the others by standing there and constantly calling the dog back. He shouts at her to come back. He didn't shout at her to come back to any of the other cars. He was telling her that that car was the important one. She had a sniff and off she went she wasn't interested in it.

It was not a controlled experiment the results don't hold up.

Why would a film clip of the dogs working, which they did for hours, include stuff they didn't find?

The clip is edited to only show what she did hit on, not what she didn't, otherwise it would be about 10 hours long and show her running through the entire resort not hitting on anything, being called back, still not hitting on anything, for 99% of the time.

:cow:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Whether he meant to or not he is showing that that car is more important than the others by standing there and constantly calling the dog back. He shouts at her to come back. He didn't shout at her to come back to any of the other cars. He was telling her that that car was the important one. She had a sniff and off she went she wasn't interested in it.

It was not a controlled experiment the results don't hold up.

What about the clothing?

No guiding or cueing there....

 

[Jmoose]

I guess the next thing we discuss is the possibility of the McCanns taking polygraph tests and failing them-oh,wait, they aren't admissable in court, so failing a polygraph doesn't matter-just one piece of circumstantial evidence? Sheesh!! I don't know if these people accidently killed their child-just saying that a friend/witness's story morphing over time to the McCann's benefit doesn't appear to be evidence either.

 

[SapphireSteel]

What also can't be explained is the biological material found at the alert sites.

Unless we are going to accuse Grime of taking Madeleine and planting it all to cover himself?

 

[blefuscu]

There is absolutely NO evidence of an intruder in that apartment. Are we to believe that an intruder sneaked into an apartment which quite conveniently had unsupervised children in it, grabbed one (who made no sounds at all) got back out of the apartment (all in the dark without disturbing anything) and whisked her away, going in two different directions depending on which Jane Tanner statement you believe (if you can believe her)?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Entered through the door and left through the window, don't forget.

Then waltzed straight past Tanner and Gerry, with Madeleine in his arms...all while they were actively "checking the children" at the time?

If the dogs are lying, so is the PJ, so also is Grime, a completely independent an unrelated dog handler with exactly zero interest in the crimes his dogs work on, just their results.

So a conspiracy with the dogs must involve -

British police
Portugese police
Martin Grime

All lying to frame the poor McCanns.

Seriously????????????

 

[blefuscu]

Entered through the door and left through the window, don't forget.

Then waltzed straight past Tanner and Gerry, with Madeleine in his arms...all while they were actively "checking the children" at the time?

If the dogs are lying, so is the PJ, so also is Grime, a completely independent an unrelated dog handler with exactly zero interest in the crimes his dogs work on, just their results.

So a conspiracy with the dogs must involve -

British police
Portugese police
Martin Grime

All lying to frame the poor McCanns.

Seriously????????????

Out of the window that only had Kate's fingerprints on, and no evidence of anyone climbing through. He also hauled a sleeping child through the window without waking her. And Kate's fingerprints weren't smudged by him going through the window.

Must take a brave person to take a child they're abducting straight past the father! Who on earth would do that? It's suicidal!

 

[Inana]

I was specifically referring to the wholesale trashing of Grimes reputation.

Right here, right now, folks are happy to say he "cued" his dogs.

Why a totally uninvolved professional is more likely to lie and deceive than those who have been proven to lie, is beyond me.

:dunno:

He charged big bucks to bring his dogs to Portugal. That's why.

 

[blefuscu]

He charged big bucks to bring his dogs to Portugal. That's why.

And then the dogs colluded with each other, as dogs do, to signal in places where traces of blood and DNA were found! Dogs really are sneaky!

 

[redheadedgal]

He charged big bucks to bring his dogs to Portugal

1) link please!

2) if grime was paid, how do you know it's "big bucks"? might it not be the standard fee for a handler and dogs of that caliber?

Vol IX, pp. 2262-68
11-also Processo XI 2813 to 2835 in Português
Personal Profile Martin Grime
I am an U.K.A.C.P.O. accredited police dog training instructor in post at the Operational Support Services. I am a Subject Matter Expert registered with N.C.P.E. and specialist homicide canine search advisor. In support of the national Homicide Search Advisor, Mark Harrison, I advise Domestic and International Law enforcement agencies on the operational deployment of Police Dogs in the role of Homicide investigation. I develop methods of detecting forensically recoverable evidence by the use of dogs and facilitate training.
I am a Special Advisor to The U.S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation, in relation to their Canine Forensic Program.
I am regularly deployed to assist in high profile homicide cases within my portfolio and form a 'Specialist Canine Homicide Search Team' including the S.A.M dog teams from Dyfed Powys.

3) if, hypothetically, grime was out to swindle monies out of LE, it wouldn't matter what the results of the dog searches were. he would've gotten paid no matter if the dogs hit/alerted or not. so why would he "cue" his dogs under this theory? unfortunately, this utter conjecture of yours fails.

 

[Inana]

Zero.

Actually, when he was "retired", he was considered to have 2false positives. This case and the infamous coconut case.

 

[Inana]

1) link please!

2) if grime was paid, how do you know it's "big bucks"? might it not be the standard fee for a handler and dogs of that caliber?



3) if, hypothetically, grime was out to swindle monies out of LE, it wouldn't matter what the results of the dog searches were. he would've gotten paid no matter if the dogs hit/alerted or not. so why would he "cue" his dogs under this theory? unfortunately, this utter conjecture of yours fails.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

 

[SapphireSteel]

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id157.html

I'm not quite sure what that link is supposed to illustrate?

That Grime gets paid very well for his dogs?

Do you think he would be able to get paid that well if the dogs were "wrong" or "inaccurate"?

How much do you think he got paid to plant evidence? Because that's what you're implying. And who paid him? The British police? The Portugese?

Yes, lets get these incredibly expensive dogs in, and pay their handler to falsify the results. Why bother with the dogs in the first place?

There has to be a million cheaper ways to frame somebody...

:dunno:

 

[Linda7NJ]

Actually, when he was "retired", he was considered to have 2false positives. This case and the infamous coconut case.

Considered by who?

Please provide a link to the above statement of an alleged fact.

Just because law enforcement has been unable to find her little body doesn't mean the dog was wrong. IMO


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[redheadedgal]

Actually, when he was "retired", he was considered to have 2false positives. This case and the infamous coconut case.

the great coconut scandal is often brought up in the lisa irwin threads too... here is a response to one such post i made a while back:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset">Originally Posted by brit1981
I agree, why not take a ten month old probably easier to handle than a new born. Plus there was one dog hit, but there were hits when looking for Gina de Jesus too and she was alive. Would le have looked harder if they thought she was alive? Plus dogs have made other false alerts like in the jersey case where Grimes dog alerted to coconut.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
no links? i'd like to see one that mentions the hit in the de jesus case -- thnx!

here are some interesting ones about that coconut:

Another nonsense is the &#8216;coconut story&#8217;. What was believed to be a piece of child&#8217;s skull was recovered and subsequently found to contain collagen (only found in mammals) This then found its way to Kew Gardens for forensics, and then just happened to change size, colour and shape and somehow ended up being a piece of coconut.

http://jerseyabusescandal.blogspot.c...1_archive.html


Eddie is now reacting very strongly and indicating to us that the scent of dead human flesh is in this location. This is where we were to find JAR/6, which the establishment continue to say was only coconut, but cannot explain how Eddie reacted as he did, nor indeed, how the lab at Oxford found Collagen.

Collagen is not found in coconut or wood, it is only present in mammals, which would seem to destroy the claims of the Jersey establishment, aided and abetted by the Jersey Evening Post and Channel Television, that JAR/6 is coconut or wood.

If this dog was a waste of money, then how did he lead us to this exact spot? How did he later, in the &#8216;live&#8217; presence of Wendy Kinnard (the then Home Affairs Minister) and Graham Power (the then Chief Police Officer), lead us to the bones in the cellars which an Anthropologist in the United Kingdom said were &#8220;fleshed and fresh&#8221; when burnt and buried? It cannot be a co-incidence that this dog, trained to detect the scent of dead human flesh, reacted so strongly in an area where we were to find a fragment of substance initially identified by a professional, accomplished, Anthropologist, as a part of a child&#8217;s skull, and right beside the spot where builders found bones and children&#8217;s shoes which they thought were human bones. No amount of spin by Le Marquand and others can contradict this, and no amount of misinformation from Warcup and Gradwell can conceal this truth.

Throughout the investigation, we subjected Martin and his dogs to many &#8216;verifying&#8217; tests, from burying swabs in sand (which he always found no matter how large an area), to minute blood stains. The dogs never failed!

As for Martin Grime and the dogs that they have tried to discredit, they are now working full time for one of the best Law Enforcement Agencies in the world in the USA: the FBI.

http://missingmadeleine.forumotion.n...enne-in-jersey