do you think maddie is alive or dead

[ScarlettScarpetta]

At the very least, charged with negligence.

The fact that they weren't charged even for this relatively minor offence when they have freely admitted their guilt, illustrates that there are deeper issues at the heart of this case.

Like the Ramseys before them, we have expensive lawyers, PR, playing the media, attempting to steer the investigation, and friends in politically high places.

So far, it's worked. So far.

None of them has ever been in a witness box answering questions, which in itself is almost inexplicable...unless of course you're wealthy and influential.

The day they are questioned under oath in a courtroom, is the day the whole farce starts to unravel.

:banghead:

You can not compare the two cases. One is a little girl who went missing in a foreign country and the other was a little girl murdered in her home.
The parents have no commonality other than the fact that neither set of parents have ever been charged or convicted of a crime.

IT has nothing to do with influence it has to do with what you can prove and what you can't. What is real and what is not.

There is nothing that says that Madeleine is dead. Nothing.

 

[jordynsmommy529]

You can not compare the two cases. One is a little girl who went missing in a foreign country and the other was a little girl murdered in her home.
The parents have no commonality other than the fact that neither set of parents have ever been charged or convicted of a crime.

IT has nothing to do with influence it has to do with what you can prove and what you can't. What is real and what is not.

There is nothing that says that Madeleine is dead. Nothing.

BBM

That's false, you can't prove she is dead but there are dogs that suggest it.

Is Madeleine McCann Alive? CADAVER dog alerts suggest Madeleine DIED in Apartment 5A! - YouTube

 

[SapphireSteel]

The dogs are viewed as an important and infallible investigative tool in every single case except Madeleine's.

Such is the power of the spin.

 

[Inana]

The dogs are viewed as an important and infallible investigative tool in every single case except Madeleine's.

How do you explain that Eddie and Keela both alerted to the Renault car key? There was no blood found on the key, but whatever type of dna was found, turned out to be Gerry's? Low and behold, he's ALIVE!!!

And Eddie alerted in the McCann"s bedroom, but Grimes discards that as:

“What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner."


Rubbish. The apartment was not "closed down", but rented out as soon as June 11 and was rented until 2 days before the dogs were brought. So now Eddie alerts to errant residue in the air?


And the video of Eddie and Keela http://www.mccannfiles.com/id161.html shows that Grimes cued them to alert, especially Keela. How many times is Grimes going to tap on those tiles and keep her right behind the couch before she figures out he wants her to alert?

Right out of his mouth:
" 'False' positives are always a possibility...My experience as a trainer is that false alerts are normally caused by handler cueing. All indications by the dog are preceded by a change in behavior. This increased handler confidence in the response. This procedure also stops handlers 'cueing' and indication. The dogs are allowed to 'free search' and investigate areas of interest. The handler does not influence their behavior other than to direct the search."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARTIN_GRIMES.htm But he never stopped cueing them.

The Government's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) said specialist victim recovery dogs are not trained to approved standards, with no way of gauging their competence. http://news.sky.com/story/844071/sniffer-dogs-can-hinder-police-work

I know Grimes avows that HIS dogs were trained to much higher standards than any other, but just sounds to me like saber-rattling once his expertise was questioned. He and his dogs are not "the best" just because he says so.
If so, I'm the Queen of England. You may call me Lilibet. :snooty:

 

[Inana]

OK the key factors to me are these:

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id162.html

Just before 10:00pm on the night of 03 May 2007, the Smith family from Ireland pass a man carrying a child in his arms. The man averts his eyes from them to signal that he does not wish to speak.

Four months later, during which time the McCanns never sought to exploit this potentially crucial sighting, the Smith family are watching TV. They see the McCanns return to the UK and observe Gerry leave the plane and walk across the tarmac with Sean in his arms.

The father, Martin Smith, is shocked. He recognises the walking style and the way the child is being held against the shoulder. It is exactly like the man he saw on the streets of Praia da Luz, four months earlier...

[Portuguese] Detectives accepted that Gerry McCann could not have been carrying Madeleine through Praia da Luz shortly before 10pm because many other witnesses placed him at the Ocean Club's tapas restaurant.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7548108.stm <O</O

 

[Inana]

OK the key factors to me are these:


http://www.mccannfiles.com/id70.html
The first eyewitness account of the frantic moments after Madeleine McCann disappeared can be revealed today.

Nanny Charlotte Pennington confirms that Kate McCann did scream: "They've taken her, they've taken her!"

The mother's precise words have become a pivotal issue in the case, with Portuguese police questioning why she would automatically assume Maddie had been abducted.

Mrs McCann's family have countered this by insisting they recall her shouting: "Madeleine's gone."

Miss Pennington, however, one of the first people to set foot in the couple's apartment after the disappearance, says she heard the mother use both phrases.

There is plenty of probable cause for Kate to assume her child was kidnapped. Portugal does not have a very good record on human trafficking:


http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/09/world/school-pedophilia-scandal-shakes-portuguese-society.html <O</O
"Pedophilia Scandal Shakes Portuguese Society. ''I was 11,'' he said. ''We all knew to watch out for Bibi.'' &#8230;The arrest of a prominent opposition party leader and his vehement denials have raised the possibility that either top officials were involved or top officials are trying to use the case to smear political enemies."<O></O>
and

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/04/world/europe/04portugal.html?_r=0 <O></O>
Six Convicted of Sexual Crimes at Portuguese Children&#8217;s Home<O></O>
MADRID &#8212; Six people were convicted of child sexual abuse in a Lisbon court on Friday, in a trial that lasted nearly six years and shocked people in Portugal and beyond. A three-judge panel found the defendants guilty of raping and sexually abusing minors at a state-run institution for needy children, and of running a ring for pedophiles. A seventh defendant, charged with allowing her home to be used for sexual abuse, was acquitted.<O></O>
and

http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/heart-without-compromise-children-and-children-wit/2012/sep/22/when-child-trafficking-wears-disguise-case-madelei/ <O></O>
"The criminal organizations involve a complex network that ranges from government officials, orphanages and adoptive families and involves skills twisted to serve the dark purpose of stealing children for profit. The child simply &#8220;disappears&#8221; as falsified paperwork and bribes erase the identity of the child."
And we know Mr Amaral is not above falsifying documents, as he was convicted of falsifying documents in another case of a missing child.
<O></O>

 

[Inana]

...Btw the reference from wikileaks to the uk police developing the evidence was about them sending in the british cadaver dog and blood dog.....which was a strong reason after their alerts why the mccanns were made suspects....no one kept anythng back

Do you have a link for this? I've asked before but my request was ignored.

 

[Inana]

At the very least, charged with negligence.

The fact that they weren't charged even for this relatively minor offence when they have freely admitted their guilt, illustrates that there are deeper issues at the heart of this case.

But they were not charged with anything <modsnip>

Do you really believe that the entire LE establishments in the UK are in a giant conspiracy to protect the McCann's? For what purpose? They are two people, like any other.

If my child went missing in a foreign third-world country, especially one with Portugals reputation for not protecting children, I would certainly hope I could contact the US embassy for help and protection.

I think if the McCann's were negligent, it was for going to Portugal.

 

[jordynsmommy529]

But they were not charged with anything <modsnip>

Do you really believe that the entire LE establishments in the UK are in a giant conspiracy to protect the McCann's? For what purpose? They are two people, like any other.

If my child went missing in a foreign third-world country, especially one with Portugals reputation for not protecting children, I would certainly hope I could contact the US embassy for help and protection.

I think if the McCann's were negligent, it was for going to Portugal.

BBM

So not neglectful for leaving 3 toddlers alone?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Nope, no neglect.

Depending on who you talk to.

Team McCann, or everybody else.

Gerry's famous quote, with Expresso Magazine in 2008 -

Gerry &#8211; In a way, we would like to have been accused so we could defend ourselves openly. Now, reading the process, there is no evidence that justifies the suspicion, apart from the dogs' action. There was never a sustained explanation. And the questioning: 'What happened to Madeleine? How did you get rid of her? Who helped you? Where did you put her?' All fantasy! If they had found DNA &#8211; so what? And if Madeleine had hurt herself inside the apartment &#8211; why would that be our fault?

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id163.html

Ah Gerry. In one short speech he manages to rubbish the dogs, LE, the forensics AND absolve himself of blame entirely.

:sick:

 

[Donjeta]

Eh...what? He doesn't understand why the parents are to blame if little children who are left unsupervised by the parents hurt themselves?

If that's how he really thinks it's a miracle that the twins are still alive.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

BBM

That's false, you can't prove she is dead but there are dogs that suggest it.

Is Madeleine McCann Alive? CADAVER dog alerts suggest Madeleine DIED in Apartment 5A! - YouTube

No. That is not true.. Just because a dog hits on something does not mean it is a real hit. I have read lots of information on why a dog can hit on something. It could be that someone bled that was not even related to them and the dog smelled the blood. It means nothing.. there is no body to confirm it. AS long as there is no body, She can not be proven dead.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

http://www.policek9.com/Fleck/Cadaver Dogs.pdf

"Based upon review of the case law below, an alert from a cadaver dog is only
reasonable suspicion. The dog alert must be corroborated by other evidence."

 

[SapphireSteel]

Eh...what? He doesn't understand why the parents are to blame if little children who are left unsupervised by the parents hurt themselves?

If that's how he really thinks it's a miracle that the twins are still alive.

Yup, that's how he really thinks.

That's what they both think, and the entire reason they skipped off night after night to enjoy themselves while their babies cried alone in the dark.

:cow:

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

But yet they are, And they are fine. So what does that say?? It says that they are good parents. Whether you like their choices or not, The twins are doing well and seem to be growing and hitting their normal milestones in life.

 

[SapphireSteel]

But yet they are, And they are fine. So what does that say?? It says that they are good parents. Whether you like their choices or not, The twins are doing well and seem to be growing and hitting their normal milestones in life.

Two outta three ain't bad.
- Meatloaf.


:banghead:

 

[jordynsmommy529]

You had said that there was nothing that suggested she was dead. My point is the dogs and DNA do suggest just that. You can't prove the dogs alert was false anymore then I can prove it was accurate. I guess it just depends on how you feel about cadaver dog's, but trying too discredit them when they have been very successful in the past doesn't make much sense.

 

[redheadedgal]

You had said that there was nothing that suggested she was dead. My point is the dogs and DNA do suggest just that. You can't prove the dogs alert was false anymore then I can prove it was accurate. I guess it just depends on how you feel about cadaver dog's, but trying too discredit them when they have been very successful in the past doesn't make much sense.

sadly, the same misinformation gets posted on various forums here. the truth is, martin grime's dogs have a 90+% accuracy rate, yet that missing "less than 10%" is what is focused on, or that a hit wasn't "corroborated with other evidence".

additionally, morse? has NEVER had a false positive.

fortunately, most ppl here know what's true and what isn't

 

[redheadedgal]

I know Grimes avows that HIS dogs were trained to much higher standards than any other, but just sounds to me like saber-rattling once his expertise was questioned. He and his dogs are not "the best" just because he says so.

his dogs? are contracted by the FBI. not many handlers can say that. so yes, i'd say his ARE among the "best".

 

[redheadedgal]

- Meatloaf.

great. now i'm hungry :floorlaugh: