Documentary Claims Jesus Was Married

[Details]

LOL this whole discussion cracks me up.

It's a James Cameron publicity stunt. Publicity for his film. Apparently it worked.

That's the funny bit here - most people in this discussion either find his claims contemptuous because they cannot be true biblically, or contemptuous because they are based on very shady 'science' - and extremely unlikely to be true. But the discussion is good.

As another poster mentioned - the existience and names on these tombs has been known for 27 years. It just was never considered to be reasonable or likely at all that they meant anything, given the wrong location and how common the names are. They've excavated a ton of Marys, Josephs, Jesuses, and so on and so forth.

 

[Details]

No, God created the elements necessary for the electrostatic discharge that leads to thunder.

Yep, just like he created the laws of physics, and the matter for the big bang, stellar development, and evolution to all happen.


I heard a really good analogy once. Imagine you see a pool table, with all the balls (other than the white) in their pockets. One theory is that someone went and picked each ball up and dropped it in it's pocket. The other is that some pool master used one stroke of the cue to hit a very precisely calculated path that knocked all of the balls in to their pockets. Which of these is the more difficult task, the more impressive, the more marvelous, the more... godlike? To the pool master, using the cue is more efficient, and more fun. Waving a magic wand and creating people and animals and such one by one, or setting up the rules of evolution and physics, setting things in motion, such that what he wanted happened?

 

[Dark Knight]

Yep, just like he created the laws of physics, and the matter for the big bang, stellar development, and evolution to all happen.


I heard a really good analogy once. Imagine you see a pool table, with all the balls (other than the white) in their pockets. One theory is that someone went and picked each ball up and dropped it in it's pocket. The other is that some pool master used one stroke of the cue to hit a very precisely calculated path that knocked all of the balls in to their pockets. Which of these is the more difficult task, the more impressive, the more marvelous, the more... godlike? To the pool master, using the cue is more efficient, and more fun. Waving a magic wand and creating people and animals and such one by one, or setting up the rules of evolution and physics, setting things in motion, such that what he wanted happened?

I, like many other Catholics, have no problem with what you have basically said, although I don't personally believe in the evolution part. But if God came to me in a dream and said "Yep I did that too" it wouldn't devastate me, lol. But God setting processess in motion, rather than the "magic wand" theory is not a problem for me to believe. He MAY have done it with the snap of His fingers, or He may not have, but either way, it was Him that did it, and THAT is what is important.

 

[Details]

I think 'THAT' is the key point where disagreements about whether it's science or religion can be resolved. Science is describing the processes and rules of how things happen, what has happened in the past, what will happen in the future. Religion speaks to the why, was it some big guy in the clouds with his thunder hammer, a superbeing with 3 personalities, or is it just the way things are?

 

[accordn2me]

LOL! Mother Nature is neither a god nor a goddess. Nature IS the Supreme Power and Man cannot control it nor completely understand it no matter how hard he tries. Mother Nature is neither wrathful nor benevolent (those are human characteristics). It just IS.

pssssst....you're really talking about God, aren't you!

 

[accordn2me]

That's the funny bit here - most people in this discussion either find his claims contemptuous because they cannot be true biblically, or contemptuous because they are based on very shady 'science' - and extremely unlikely to be true. But the discussion is good.

As another poster mentioned - the existience and names on these tombs has been known for 27 years. It just was never considered to be reasonable or likely at all that they meant anything, given the wrong location and how common the names are. They've excavated a ton of Marys, Josephs, Jesuses, and so on and so forth.

OK. But have they excavated a "Jesus son of Joseph" and two Marys, one with a specific spelling, all in the same box?

 

[accordn2me]

I think 'THAT' is the key point where disagreements about whether it's science or religion can be resolved. Science is describing the processes and rules of how things happen, what has happened in the past, what will happen in the future. Religion speaks to the why, was it some big guy in the clouds with his thunder hammer, a superbeing with 3 personalities, or is it just the way things are?

Science and religion go hand-in-hand. If people wouldn't let themselves get stuck on trivial inconsistencies, and things like pronouns, there shouldn't be a problem reconciling the two.

 

[Details]

OK. But have they excavated a "Jesus son of Joseph" and two Marys, one with a specific spelling, all in the same box?

Probably here and there. And that box is in the wrong place, and of the wrong social class. If you look at the stats even the filmmaker is using, 50% of all females in that time are a 'Mary'. Jesus, Joseph, also very common. Greek - not uncommon either.

 

[Glow]

Yep, just like he created the laws of physics, and the matter for the big bang, stellar development, and evolution to all happen.


I heard a really good analogy once. Imagine you see a pool table, with all the balls (other than the white) in their pockets. One theory is that someone went and picked each ball up and dropped it in it's pocket. The other is that some pool master used one stroke of the cue to hit a very precisely calculated path that knocked all of the balls in to their pockets. Which of these is the more difficult task, the more impressive, the more marvelous, the more... godlike? To the pool master, using the cue is more efficient, and more fun. Waving a magic wand and creating people and animals and such one by one, or setting up the rules of evolution and physics, setting things in motion, such that what he wanted happened?

Thats a good analogy! What does one say however, when some say they dont believe that "anyone" made the pool table, balls and cue stick? :waitasec:

 

[Details]

Thats a good analogy! What does one say however, when some say they dont believe that "anyone" made the pool table, balls and cue stick? :waitasec:

I'd say that they're outside the analogy. Who made God, anyway?

 

[Maral]

Science and religion go hand-in-hand. If people wouldn't let themselves get stuck on trivial inconsistencies, and things like pronouns, there shouldn't be a problem reconciling the two.

Exactly! This is what the Catechism of The Catholic Church teaches about faith and science:

159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth." "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."

 

[Cypros]

pssssst....you're really talking about God, aren't you!

Yes and no. What I am describing explains much of what religion tries to explain, but Mother Nature is not the God of the Bible. It does not have a plan. It does not have a special relationship with man. It is indifferent to man. it doesn't send down prophets, Sons, or antichrists. There is no plan.

 

[Cypros]

OK. But have they excavated a "Jesus son of Joseph" and two Marys, one with a specific spelling, all in the same box?

What do you mean "all in the same box"? These are individual ossuaries, each with its own inscription. They were found in the same middle-upper class tomb in southern Jerusalem along with several other ossuaries.

 

[Details]

Exactly! This is what the Catechism of The Catholic Church teaches about faith and science:

159 Faith and science: "Though faith is above reason, there can never be any real discrepancy between faith and reason. Since the same God who reveals mysteries and infuses faith has bestowed the light of reason on the human mind, God cannot deny himself, nor can truth ever contradict truth." "Consequently, methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are."

And, of course, there are the statements of Pope John Paul II about evolution - that it is not incompatible at all with faith, and that it is reasonably well proven:
http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/0102-97/Article3.html

 

[accordn2me]

What do you mean "all in the same box"? These are individual ossuaries, each with its own inscription. They were found in the same middle-upper class tomb in southern Jerusalem along with several other ossuaries.

LOL! I meant ossuary. I didn't realize each person had their own. Do you know if the ossuary inscribed "James, brother of Jesus" was found near these? Not that I think it's relevant if it was or wasn't. It's interesting though.

 

[accordn2me]

Yes and no. What I am describing explains much of what religion tries to explain, but Mother Nature is not the God of the Bible. It does not have a plan. It does not have a special relationship with man. It is indifferent to man. it doesn't send down prophets, Sons, or antichrists. There is no plan.

"God of the Bible" I know what you mean. I have another book suggestion for you. Conversations With God book 1 by Neale Donald Walsch. I probably spelled his last name wrong...

Have you seen Talladega Nights with Will Ferrell? The part where he is going to say grace is hilarious. He always starts with, "Dear Lord, Baby Jesus." The grace was getting kinda long so his wife calls him on the Baby Jesus part because "he grew up." A heated debate ensues about which "version of Jesus" is the best one. Ricky Bobby prefers the Christmas Jesus...

NDW has a pretty good version of God if you are not fundamentalist Christian. It's an easy read.

 

[reb]

DK, you crack me up!! 'mother nature' isn't a 'false god' any more or less than your god is a false god. if you're talking about the old pagan mother religions, they were highjacked by christians for the most part.. but people do still worship some form of 'mother nature', the 'earth spirit', whatever. you christians just don't want to see god in a female form, because you have a sexist religion. the only reason that mary was given her status was to convert the pre-christian pagans more easily from their female-centered religion. your god can only be in a male form, because the male was considered 'the first', 'in god's image', etc.. and therefore superior, while the woman is the secondary afterthought.

and any kind of talk about 'mother nature' and goddess religions have always been threatening to christians.. since all they seem to care about is what it takes to get themselves into 'heaven'.. they traditionally do not focus on the here and now on planet earth, but more the hereafter. this also ties in with their traditional sense of manifest destiny.. ie, 'god told us this country was meant to be ours and we can use up all its resources',, and so forth.. while modern pagan religions at least teach more respect and reverence for the life force here on earth.
so it figures that in their mythology,, 'father god' and 'mother earth' got a divorce.

 

[narlacat]

Or maybe it is just that they take the words in the Bible seriously. Jesus commissioned His diciples to go out and spread the Good News of the Gospels. Telling people about something is not the same thing as forcing and coercing them to convert.

Christianity is a proselytizing religion, it is a duty to share their religion and convert others- that's the way it is.
Look at the problems in Africa with HIV/AIDS, prohibiting the use of condoms

 

[narlacat]

"God of the Bible" I know what you mean. I have another book suggestion for you. Conversations With God book 1 by Neale Donald Walsch. I probably spelled his last name wrong...

Have you seen Talladega Nights with Will Ferrell? The part where he is going to say grace is hilarious. He always starts with, "Dear Lord, Baby Jesus." The grace was getting kinda long so his wife calls him on the Baby Jesus part because "he grew up." A heated debate ensues about which "version of Jesus" is the best one. Ricky Bobby prefers the Christmas Jesus...

NDW has a pretty good version of God if you are not fundamentalist Christian. It's an easy read.

Everybody needs to read NDW's books, if everyone did, and understood the message, what a different world this could be.

 

[Dark Knight]

DK, you crack me up!! 'mother nature' isn't a 'false god' any more or less than your god is a false god. if you're talking about the old pagan mother religions, they were highjacked by christians for the most part.. but people do still worship some form of 'mother nature', the 'earth spirit', whatever. you christians just don't want to see god in a female form, because you have a sexist religion. the only reason that mary was given her status was to convert the pre-christian pagans more easily from their female-centered religion. your god can only be in a male form, because the male was considered 'the first', 'in god's image', etc.. and therefore superior, while the woman is the secondary afterthought.

and any kind of talk about 'mother nature' and goddess religions have always been threatening to christians.. since all they seem to care about is what it takes to get themselves into 'heaven'.. they traditionally do not focus on the here and now on planet earth, but more the hereafter. this also ties in with their traditional sense of manifest destiny.. ie, 'god told us this country was meant to be ours and we can use up all its resources',, and so forth.. while modern pagan religions at least teach more respect and reverence for the life force here on earth.
so it figures that in their mythology,, 'father god' and 'mother earth' got a divorce.

Maybe you're a false poster. Reb doesn't actually exist. Just a figment of our imaginations, most likely. :slap:

And I didn't mean the pagan-folk specifically, no.