Documentary Claims Jesus Was Married

[Details]

Josephus is no more reliable than the authors of the Gospels. He shouldn't be treated as such, regardless of what he wrote or didn't write about Jesus.

Yes! The only way to be sure is to find multiple sources, ideally with different biases, and original copies, reporting the same event. Of course for a lot we don't have that, and have to try to guess which bits are true, which bits are bias, and which bits were added by some copyist.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

I worked in the Rockefeller Museum where these ossuaries have been in storage and, believe me, these ossuaries are nothing special. The names are common. There is no way to confirm that they belong to some of the biblical characters.

Do you have any way of knowing if any other ossuaries found in Jerusalem contained the same grouping of names (or a similar group of family names) in common with the names associated with Jesus' family of the New Testament?

 

[Dark Knight]

DK, I think everyone who has mentioned Josephus here has agreed with that statement. Who is claiming Josephian infallibility?

I read him being quoted regularly without much in the way of quantification like they do the Gospels or other Biblical writing. They just call him a historian and say he recorded such and such an event. And they even speak of him mentioning, or not mentioning, Jesus, as we've talked about here. The Romans certainly wouldn't appreciate him putting Jesus in a positive light, for obvious reasons.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Ossuaries are secondary burials. The body is left out in the elements to decompose and then the defleshed bones are stacked inside a small stone box -- the size of a standard kitchen trash can -- and the box placed in a tomb.

Do you mean to say that the body "left out in the elements to decompose" was outside a closed tomb?

My understanding of 1st century Jewish burial customs is that the body was left inside a closed tomb for at least a year until it decomposed to bones. Then the remains were collected and placed in a stone ossuary. Not burying a Jewish person but leaving their bodies on the ground somewhere to be picked clean by birds and animals would have seemed to be an entirely unholy nd unacceptable act.

Wouldn't Jesus' body, after having been buried in a "borrowed" tomb provided by (according to all 4 gospels) Joseph of Arimathea, be expected to be,a year or so later, gathered together as just bones by his family, pllaced in an ossuary, then buried in a family tomb of whatever kind the family could afford?

The bones wouldn't necessarily be reduced to "clean" bone in that time frame, but would be placed inside the ossuary in whatever condition they were when collected, hence, leaving some physical material with DNA properties on the the sides and bottom of the stone box.

 

[Dark Knight]

A Catholic priest made a good point on the Glenn Beck show. He asked why the Christian religion, more than any other religion, is always a target by people who don't believe in anything to begin with. That is a good point, why do they care what Christians of many different denominations believe and try to discount it and prove it wrong. I know that what anything anyone says is only making themselves feel better about death and eternity and they are not influencing Christians who believe many things by faith one little bit. They've been trying for a couple thousand years now and it hasn't worked yet.

Remember: The gates of Hell will not prevail against it. :woohoo:

It's no coincidence that non believers target us most, they're doing the devil's work. (Which is not to say they are Satanic. They are likely unaware.) As Maral and I said earlier, this stuff ALWAYS comes up during Easter, and sometimes Christmas. Almost never other times of the year.

 

[Maral]

<<I don't think skeptics are more interested in the Christian faith than any others. There are certainly more interesting religions and plenty even more bizarre religions. However, Christianity is the one major religion that makes a practice of proselytizing and missionizing. Other religions are secure in themselves and do not feel the need to convert everybody else. This practice of converting -- forcing one's religion on others, throwing it in their faces -- has coincided with colonization, westward expansion, etc. and the destruction of many amazing cultures and ways of believing. No surprise that Christianity is greeted with skepticism and criticism from those who do not approve of its tactics. It is not the religion itself, it is the history of its practice.>>

HOORAYYYYYYY!! cypros. right on!! this couldn't possibly be repeated enough. BRAVO!:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

and--
<<Some question whether Christ was an historical figure. We do not question other figures...but we do this "Jesus" - the Lord of so many.>>

uhh, wrinkles... we DO question other religious figures-- ALL OF THEM. and all dieties out there are 'the lord of so many'. i guess that a person named jesus probably existed, since this supposed person seemed to have quite an impact. but no one can say for sure. and you have a good point, about our dating system. however, there is no proof anywhere other than hearsay and a book that has been copied and recopied a million times over, that he did anything more than exist, and maybe do some stuff that was outisde the norm and got peoples' attention. other than that,, it's just myth and mysticism. the bible is nowhere close to being a 'historical document'. it is a book of mythical stories, some of them possibly having some basis in fact somwhere. it is considered a sared text. it's a collection of narratives, fables, and prophecies that has always been evolving and changing over the past 2,000 years. it is a lot of things, but it sure ain't a 'historical document'. it is too vague and contradictory to be considered as such.

While it is true that the Bible has been copied many times, all of the ancient documents were copied by hand and the copyists usually worked from one or two documents. They made many copies of the source copy, preserving the source and comparing it to the new copies. The Jews took great care in copying the Scriptures of the Old Testament because of the strong convictions they held. They believed that adding anything would be punishable by hell. Josephus attested to this in "Against Apion". Of course there were minor copying errors, but it is simply not true to say that these minor errors made over time changed the copies so much that they didn't look anything like the original document. The accuracy of the documents was confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

There are over 5,000 Greek New Testament copies in existence, many more than any other historical document. These manuscripts were copied from the original or good copies of the original. Historians and Bible scholars have compared them for variations. The few variations that do exist are rarely important to the meaning of the text.

Another way that we can see that the copies of the New Testament have remained virtually unchanged from the original manuscripts is through the works of the early church fathers. Almost the entire New Testament could be reproduced from citations contained in their works.

Whether or not one believes the Bible is the Word of God, it cannot be dismissed as a historical document.

 

[reb]

<It's no coincidence that non believers target us most, they're doing the devil's work. (Which is not to say they are Satanic. They are likely unaware.) As Maral and I said earlier, this stuff ALWAYS comes up during Easter, and sometimes Christmas. Almost never other times of the year>

wrong, my dear DK.... this ain't no 'devil's' work-- as i've said, before this is MY work, strictly MY idea. don't blame some evil spirit for MY critical thinking skills... geez, give me some credit already...!

and-- it's not also true that non-christians target christians mostly at easter. i target christians all year round! after all, most of them spend half their time targeting everyone else, so it's just a taste of their own medicine, plus,, it's payback for being forced to spend half my life in church growing up listening to all that mindless drivel. LOL. if i could only have all that time back, the thing i could have done..... wow.

but just remember DK, it's always a good thing to have your beliefs challenged, right? no harm no foul.
but come on, hon.. let's evolve past the 12th century and let go of all that 'satan' stuff.. OK?, you're really starting to worry me. you know they lock people up for that kind of crazy talk!

 

[LovelyPigeon]

As Maral and I said earlier, this stuff ALWAYS comes up during Easter, and sometimes Christmas. Almost never other times of the year.

The currrent "stuff" being this documentary is coming up Sunday, March 4.

April 8 is Easter (this year the Orthodox and Western Easter fall on the same date), which is a month later and not "during Easter".

 

[Cypros]

Do you have any way of knowing if any other ossuaries found in Jerusalem contained the same grouping of names (or a similar group of family names) in common with the names associated with Jesus' family of the New Testament?

Nope. Never heard of another example. Most ossuaries are not inscribed although inscribed ossuaries tend to be grouped together (a family tradition?). I read somewhere that there are maybe 200 inscribed ossuaries known. That is not much for statistical analysis considering how common ossuaries (uninscribed) are in the archaeological record.

Only a small percentage of tombs are known and discovered intact (with the ossuaries still inside). So many of the recorded ossuaries are from illiicit excavations and so reconstructing the original context is difficult if not impossible. This is the problem of looting and private collectors. We lose the truly valuable contextual information.

You could go to the Catalogue of Jewish Ossuaries in the Collections of the State of Israel published in 1994 by L. Y Rahmani to count the occurrence of each name in this collection. It is not a complete list since not all inscribed ossuaries are possessed by the Israel Antiquities Authority, but I would consider this a good representative sample. According to an article analyzing the so-called James ossuary:

"Yoseph, Joseph, sometimes spelled Yehoseph, is also a name that was commonly used in ancient Judea. The Hebrew form occurs at least a dozen times, and the Greek form a few times on ossuaries in Rahmani’s catalogue. It is found also in Aramaic texts of the early second century from the caves of Murabba‘at. In the form Yehoseph, it is even more common in the Murabba‘at texts. Similarly, Yeshua‘, Jesus, is attested on ossuaries also (six times in Hebrew and four times in Greek in the Rahmani catalogue); it also occurs in Murabba‘at texts. Hence, theoretically the new Aramaic inscription could refer to any one of these persons, when the names are considered in isolated fashion. ...

Although it is not widely known, this is not the first time that the name Jesus has been discovered on an ossuary. In January 1931 the Israeli scholar E. L. Sukenik published an inscription from an ossuary found in what was then called the Palestine Archaeological Museum (today the Rockefeller Museum) in 1926. It read: Yeshua‘ bar Yehoseph, “Jesus, son of Joseph” (Rahmani, Catalogue, §9). If this ossuary were related to the newly published one, it might be the same Joseph, and possibly the same Jesus. Sukenik, however, was a careful scholar and did not draw a conclusion from it about any New Testament personages, realizing that Joseph and Jesus were commonly used names for Judean Jews in the first century."

http://www.americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=2614&issueID=412

 

[reb]

and, as we all know,, "Easter" is just the name for the old pagan spring festival, that the christians ripped off anyway.. and attached their own resurrection myth to it, so they could convert more followers.

 

[SadieMae]

This stuff ALWAYS happens during the Lenten/Easter season. Proof that Satan is getting very, very desperate. Some sort of crap comes out during the Holy Season almost every year. Sometimes during Christmas, too. Lame, lame, lame. Satan's end is near, and there is nothing he can do to stop it. But "the father of all lies" is going to try to take as many of us with him as possible, apparently.

Very true Dark Knight...I didn't read or see the Davince Code...would be a waste of my time. I don't agree with everything in the Bible because of historical research and because of the language translations hundreds of years later. But no where, even in the loosest translation in the Bible even hints that Jesus was married.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

Another way that we can see that the copies of the New Testament have remained virtually unchanged from the original manuscripts is through the works of the early church fathers. Almost the entire New Testament could be reproduced from citations contained in their works.

While I realize that you have probably taken this info almost word-for-word from internet posts of apologists, if you examine the actual citations of those early church fathers you may find yourself disappointed. I know that I was (and I'm a Southern Baptist cradle roller, albeit as an adult I'm a 'flaming' liberal non-literalist who questions the claims of inerrancy).

 

[SadieMae]

and "Easter" is just the name for the old pagan spring festival, that the christians ripped off anyway.. and attached their own resurrection myth to it, so they could convert more followers.

Yes, that's very true reb. That's what I was referring to in my earlier post on historical research. Easter was a celebration of the godess Astar, who represented rebirth and fertility. Thus the symbols of eggs, chicks and rabbits. The pagan spring festival/celebration to coincide with the resurrection was used to convert pagans to Christianity. Also, Christmas, the birth of Christ coincides with the winter soltace, which was a pagan biggie celebration. How it all worked out timewise, I dunno.

 

[LovelyPigeon]

But no where, even in the loosest translation in the Bible even hints that Jesus was married.

Nor does it hint that Jesus was unmarried.

Other writings, not accepted in the canon, do suggest and even proclaim that Jesus was married to Mary Magdelene. Some traditional beliefs also suggest that Jesus had a child by Mary Magdelene and their family lineage continued in France after the death of Jesus.

P.S.- The DaVinci Code is a great book for mystery enthusiasts, and can lead to some independent study of Biblical and historical information. I highly recommend it as fictional mystery, and you might even be inspired to do some biblical and historical searching as well.

 

[GreenEyedGirl]

The currrent "stuff" being this documentary is coming up Sunday, March 4.

April 8 is Easter (this year the Orthodox and Western Easter fall on the same date), which is a month later and not "during Easter".

In the Christian church year, the two major cycles of seasons, Christmas and Easter, are far more than a single day of observance. Like Christmas, Easter itself is a period of time rather than just a day. It is actually a seven-week season of the church year called Eastertide, the Great Fifty Days that begins at sundown the evening before Easter Sunday (the Easter Vigil) and lasts for six more Sundays until Pentecost Sunday (some traditions use the term Pentecost to include these Fifty Days between Easter and Pentecost Sunday). These seven Sundays are called the Sundays of Easter, climaxing on the seventh Sunday, the Sunday before Pentecost Sunday. This is often celebrated as Ascension Day (actually the 40th day after Easter Sunday, which always falls on Thursday, but in churches that do not have daily services it is usually observed the following Sunday). Ascension Day marks not only the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, but his exaltation from servanthood to Ruler and Lord as the fitting climax of Resurrection Day (Eph 1:20-22).

from: http://www.crivoice.org/cyeaster.html

 

[Dark Knight]

The currrent "stuff" being this documentary is coming up Sunday, March 4.

April 8 is Easter (this year the Orthodox and Western Easter fall on the same date), which is a month later and not "during Easter".

Lenten season for us Catholics and some other denominations started already. All part of the preparations for Easter itself.

 

[Cypros]

Do you mean to say that the body "left out in the elements to decompose" was outside a closed tomb?

My understanding of 1st century Jewish burial customs is that the body was left inside a closed tomb for at least a year until it decomposed to bones. Then the remains were collected and placed in a stone ossuary. Not burying a Jewish person but leaving their bodies on the ground somewhere to be picked clean by birds and animals would have seemed to be an entirely unholy nd unacceptable act.

Wouldn't Jesus' body, after having been buried in a "borrowed" tomb provided by (according to all 4 gospels) Joseph of Arimathea, be expected to be,a year or so later, gathered together as just bones by his family, pllaced in an ossuary, then buried in a family tomb of whatever kind the family could afford?

The bones wouldn't necessarily be reduced to "clean" bone in that time frame, but would be placed inside the ossuary in whatever condition they were when collected, hence, leaving some physical material with DNA properties on the the sides and bottom of the stone box.

Yes, sorry, the body is usually left out on a shelf or stone bed in the tomb or within the tomb enclosure. And yes, the bones would not necessarily be totally cleaned but I do not think there would be any usable DNA material to be scraped off of the inside of the box. I am sure you know, LP, about the problem of getting useful preserved DNA (from the JonBenet Ramsey case for example). Now, if they had the bones to analyze that could yield something, but those bones were reburied in 1980. Perhaps Cameron will ask the Israel government to exhume them in order to acquire Jesus' DNA??

 

[SadieMae]

the truth is that NO ONE knows all the details about jesus's life, or even if he really existed. we have been taught things in sunday school & church as 'this is just the way it is- period-- but these ideas about this man's life have been handed down orally, copied and recopied, translated upmteen times, revised, changed, deleted, added to, etc.. and it has all turned into myth-- and we don't know the truth. if we find some hardcore physical evidence of 'jesu' that points to the fact that THIS is the guy that everyone's been talking about for all these years,, then yes- i'll believe he really existed-- but come on folks-- you know all the rest,, is just myth and fairy tales.
i always applaud people for exploring the myth and putting forth new questions about this supposed historic character.. even though they have to endure death threats and hate from the religious right (as when 'last temptation of christ' came out). the faithful can't stand anybody messing with their sacred myth.
but the other option, is to just sit down, shut up, and just believe everything you're force-fed in sunday school. and no way am i gonna do that! LOL

Regardless of it all reb...it's faith that believers have. We don't have to have all the facts or truths. Maybe we aren't supposed to know it all. I know man has had a hand in the written word, but it doesn't change my belief, my faith in Him is the bottom line.

 

[Dark Knight]

and, as we all know,, "Easter" is just the name for the old pagan spring festival, that the christians ripped off anyway.. and attached their own resurrection myth to it, so they could convert more followers.

Your constant blasphemy of our faith by calling it fairy tales and mythology does not constitute critical thinking, nice try.

 

[GreenEyedGirl]

Regardless of it all reb...it's faith that believers have. We don't have to have all the facts or truths. Maybe we aren't supposed to know it all. I know man has had a hand in the written word, but it doesn't change my belief, my faith in Him is the bottom line.

:clap: :clap: AMEN!!