Does Pam Paugh Know Anything About JB's Murder?

[DeeDee249]

But who would have known they were there? JR? BR? An intruder? Probably not. So why wouldn't PR just go upstairs and get the proper size?

And has it been confirmed that the size 12s came from the basement?


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That's the whole point. NO intruder would know they were there. There are a few theories as to why Patsy would not have gone up to get JB's own panties. One is that in the horrible reality of the moment, she may not have wanted to take the time. Another is that JB may have been wearing a pair of Wednesday panties in her own size (Patsy claimed not to remember whether she bought a set for JB when she bought the set for Jenny) and they became bloodied (it was proved that JB's own blood had been wiped from her pubic area and thighs). If anyone had noticed the Wednesday panties at the White's party (because JB was known to ask anyone in earshot to help her in the toilet) they'd have needed another Wednesday pair, of which the only one was in the set that was bought for Jenny.
It has never been proved that the size 12's panties were in the basement. But Patsy bought them for her niece, and said she planned to mail out the gifts for Jenny after they got back from the trip. Patsy also said she kept the wrapped gifts in the wine cellar, where the unwrapped gifts were found. IF the police had checked the name tags on all the "partially unwrapped" gifts, they'd know whether it really was BR looking through them. He was old enough to read, so he'd know which gifts were his. I personally do not think BR did this. First of all, these unwrapped boxed had to be like that Christmas day. He'd have already gotten his gifts Christmas morning. Even though Patsy said he had a birthday coming in the new year, I don't see how he'd have time to go through the gifts when they got home from the White's, with a TOD of approximately midnight to 1 AM. If the unwrapped gifts said "Jenny" on the tags, we'd know for sure that it was a parent looking for the panties. Kolar claims it was BR, but I have never seen where it was PROVEN it was BR (by checking the tags, for example).
And who "partially" unwraps a gift anyway?

 

[elannia]

Pam Paugh has stated there were two. She doesnt know who actually killed her. Patsy says "they've" killed my baby. Patsy says on tv two people know.. the killer and the person he(she) confided in

 

[UKGuy]

That's the whole point. NO intruder would know they were there. There are a few theories as to why Patsy would not have gone up to get JB's own panties. One is that in the horrible reality of the moment, she may not have wanted to take the time. Another is that JB may have been wearing a pair of Wednesday panties in her own size (Patsy claimed not to remember whether she bought a set for JB when she bought the set for Jenny) and they became bloodied (it was proved that JB's own blood had been wiped from her pubic area and thighs). If anyone had noticed the Wednesday panties at the White's party (because JB was known to ask anyone in earshot to help her in the toilet) they'd have needed another Wednesday pair, of which the only one was in the set that was bought for Jenny.
It has never been proved that the size 12's panties were in the basement. But Patsy bought them for her niece, and said she planned to mail out the gifts for Jenny after they got back from the trip. Patsy also said she kept the wrapped gifts in the wine cellar, where the unwrapped gifts were found. IF the police had checked the name tags on all the "partially unwrapped" gifts, they'd know whether it really was BR looking through them. He was old enough to read, so he'd know which gifts were his. I personally do not think BR did this. First of all, these unwrapped boxed had to be like that Christmas day. He'd have already gotten his gifts Christmas morning. Even though Patsy said he had a birthday coming in the new year, I don't see how he'd have time to go through the gifts when they got home from the White's, with a TOD of approximately midnight to 1 AM. If the unwrapped gifts said "Jenny" on the tags, we'd know for sure that it was a parent looking for the panties. Kolar claims it was BR, but I have never seen where it was PROVEN it was BR (by checking the tags, for example).
And who "partially" unwraps a gift anyway?

DeeDee249,

And who "partially" unwraps a gift anyway?

BR, as he quickly looks inside each gift? Kolar said BR did this earlier Christmas day, not on returning from the White's. That question by the investigators, i.e. did you purchase a size-6 set of Bloomingdales for JonBenet is curious since they must already have known the answer, since they searched the house and removed JonBenet's underwear. I reckon JonBenet was wearing a Wednesday, size-6 pair of Bloomingdales to the White's, purchased by Patsy on her December visit. From the line of questioning Patsy realized this was important so invoked ramnesia to answer?

Why did Patsy not place the remaining pairs from the now opened size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, anticipating any future queries on this subject?

Speculating: why would Patsy stage a sexual assault on JonBenet causing her to bleed, then wipe her down and redress her in clean size-12's and longjohns?

TOD is another curiosity. If you allow a time period for the necrosis to develop as a consequence of JonBenet's head injury, then surely this must extend the timing of the original assault backwards in time? TOD between 12 and 1 am is a historical assumption and does not include any necrosis interval.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

BR, as he quickly looks inside each gift? Kolar said BR did this earlier Christmas day, not on returning from the White's. That question by the investigators, i.e. did you purchase a size-6 set of Bloomingdales for JonBenet is curious since they must already have known the answer, since they searched the house and removed JonBenet's underwear. I reckon JonBenet was wearing a Wednesday, size-6 pair of Bloomingdales to the White's, purchased by Patsy on her December visit. From the line of questioning Patsy realized this was important so invoked ramnesia to answer?

Why did Patsy not place the remaining pairs from the now opened size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer, anticipating any future queries on this subject?

Speculating: why would Patsy stage a sexual assault on JonBenet causing her to bleed, then wipe her down and redress her in clean size-12's and longjohns?

TOD is another curiosity. If you allow a time period for the necrosis to develop as a consequence of JonBenet's head injury, then surely this must extend the timing of the original assault backwards in time? TOD between 12 and 1 am is a historical assumption and does not include any necrosis interval.

.

As I mentioned, If it were really BR looking though the gifts, he'd have opened his own. He could read the name tags on the boxes (I assume there were tags- NO ONE wraps gifts and doesn't put the name of the intended recipient on the box). I also mentioned that if police had examined the partially opened boxes to see WHOSE gifts were opened, it would have been helpful. If a box marked for Jenny (the intended recipient of the Day Of The Week panty set) that would point to someone opening boxes looking for the panties.
With all Patsy was doing that night, running up to put the remaining panties in the drawer was probably not something that popped into her mind. I do not think Patsy staged a sexual assault causing her to bleed. Dead bodies don't bleed, but aside from that, I believe whatever caused her to bleed also caused her to scream, which precipitated the bash on the head to shut her up.
There was no visible necrosis at that point- there was some mild autolysis noted in some organs, but only at the autopsy. The TOD of 12 midnight-1 am is more than a historical assumption, as far as I am concerned. The position of the pineapple in her digestive tract combined with the stage of rigor mortis she was in when found both point to a TOD of that time frame. I do not understand your comment about "necrosis developing because of the head injuries" and how that would push back the timeline. The original assault (I assume you mean sexual assault) obviously occurred when she was alive. She was alive in that house between approximately 9-10 PM (when they arrived home) and 12-1 AM (when she died). Whatever happened, including the pineapple snack and assault with head bash happened between those hours.

 

[Historydetective63]

It is my understanding that JB's underwear and longjohns that she was found in both had urine stains on them. In other words, that makes me think she was not redressed as some have said. Her pubic area may have been wiped off but If she had been redressed her underwear and longjohns would probably be clean ones. About the presents in the wine cellar, I read the transcript of the interview with PR who said she partially tore some of the gifts because she could not remember what toys/gifts they were. BR did have a birthday coming up in January and she said some of the gifts were to be saved for his birthday. This explanation makes sense to me although a lot of other things PR said do not.

 

[DeeDee249]

It is my understanding that JB's underwear and longjohns that she was found in both had urine stains on them. In other words, that makes me think she was not redressed as some have said. Her pubic area may have been wiped off but If she had been redressed her underwear and longjohns would probably be clean ones. About the presents in the wine cellar, I read the transcript of the interview with PR who said she partially tore some of the gifts because she could not remember what toys/gifts they were. BR did have a birthday coming up in January and she said some of the gifts were to be saved for his birthday. This explanation makes sense to me although a lot of other things PR said do not.

The Rs later changed their story about the opened gifts, saying BR admitted HE opened them. I don't believe Patsy anyway. We've all wrapped gifts. You wrap it, you put a name tag on it. You'll remember what you bought when you give it to the intended recipient. No need to remember what was in the box- unless you need to FIND something that was in a wrapped box. This could have been clarified IF police had checked the opened gifts to see whether they were BR's or had his name tag on the box.
As far as the wiping down of the pubic area- remember that dead people don't bleed. She was alive when whatever penetration caused her to bleed occurred. I believe she was naked, at least from the waist down, or at the very least her longjohns and original panties were pulled down. If she'd been lying down when she was penetrated, blood might not have gotten on her clothes, if they were pulled down. If she was standing, I'd say that at least SOME blood would have gotten on them unless they had been removed. There was NO blood found on the longjohns and only a few drops of blood on the size 12 panties, which could have resulted from seepage after the panties were put on her.
Here's my timeline: JB assaulted penetrated, and she bleeds enough to warrant wiping the blood from her pubic area and thighs. She is redressed in the clean, NEW size 12 panties that were removed from a gift box (which had been opened in order to find them- Patsy KNEW she had bought that set for her niece). Then her own longjohns were put on her. By this time, she had been bashed on the head because she screamed when she was penetrated ( anything forceful enough to cause her to bleed would also have been very painful and caused her to scream). The strangulation took place last and it was what finally ended her life. Made right there on her neck as she lay on her stomach, probably in the carpeted area of the basement, just outside the winecellar door. The paint tote, containing a piece of Patsy's broken paintbrush used to make the handle, was found right there too. JB is wearing both the longjohns and size 12 panties when she was strangled, and both are urine stained on the front (anterior) surface, indicating she voided her bladder at death while wearing them.

 

[WhoKnowsWhat]

JB was strangled on her stomach. I have been trying to imagine how her arms could possible have gotten in the position found. If she wasn't moved except very shortly after her death, was there something on the ceiling or above her head where her arms could have been hung? Why? Did JR go to her to release the ties on her arms before he found her? So strange.

 

[andreww]

JR claimed that when he found her he removed the tape, then tried to remove the hand restraints. I find that to be a little weird given that if he didn't know she was dead, every second could have been critical. The hand bindings were not something that needed to be removed. To me, an even bigger tell is that he carried her up the stairs in front of her with his hands in he armpits. What kind of father wouldnt pick up their baby and cradle them in their arms? I believe JR was repulsed by JBR at that moment and really didn't want to even touch her.


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[DeeDee249]

JR claimed that when he found her he removed the tape, then tried to remove the hand restraints. I find that to be a little weird given that if he didn't know she was dead, every second could have been critical. The hand bindings were not something that needed to be removed. To me, an even bigger tell is that he carried her up the stairs in front of her with his hands in he armpits. What kind of father wouldnt pick up their baby and cradle them in their arms? I believe JR was repulsed by JBR at that moment and really didn't want to even touch her.


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As we know, there were no real hand restraints. One wrist didn't even have a cord on it at all. The autopsy made NO note of marks on her wrists- there was nothing to indicate she had been bound at all, let alone "tightly bound" as JR claimed. He knew she was dead. She looked dead, she smelled dead (according to Det Arndt). Ad her arms were up over her face with nothing to support them.
FW was right behind JR as they entered the winecellar. He knew what her body looked like in situ and he also saw exactly what JR did or didn't do. I would hope he shared that with police, even though he did not share it with the public.

 

[UKGuy]

The Rs later changed their story about the opened gifts, saying BR admitted HE opened them. I don't believe Patsy anyway. We've all wrapped gifts. You wrap it, you put a name tag on it. You'll remember what you bought when you give it to the intended recipient. No need to remember what was in the box- unless you need to FIND something that was in a wrapped box. This could have been clarified IF police had checked the opened gifts to see whether they were BR's or had his name tag on the box.
As far as the wiping down of the pubic area- remember that dead people don't bleed. She was alive when whatever penetration caused her to bleed occurred. I believe she was naked, at least from the waist down, or at the very least her longjohns and original panties were pulled down. If she'd been lying down when she was penetrated, blood might not have gotten on her clothes, if they were pulled down. If she was standing, I'd say that at least SOME blood would have gotten on them unless they had been removed. There was NO blood found on the longjohns and only a few drops of blood on the size 12 panties, which could have resulted from seepage after the panties were put on her.
Here's my timeline: JB assaulted penetrated, and she bleeds enough to warrant wiping the blood from her pubic area and thighs. She is redressed in the clean, NEW size 12 panties that were removed from a gift box (which had been opened in order to find them- Patsy KNEW she had bought that set for her niece). Then her own longjohns were put on her. By this time, she had been bashed on the head because she screamed when she was penetrated ( anything forceful enough to cause her to bleed would also have been very painful and caused her to scream). The strangulation took place last and it was what finally ended her life. Made right there on her neck as she lay on her stomach, probably in the carpeted area of the basement, just outside the winecellar door. The paint tote, containing a piece of Patsy's broken paintbrush used to make the handle, was found right there too. JB is wearing both the longjohns and size 12 panties when she was strangled, and both are urine stained on the front (anterior) surface, indicating she voided her bladder at death while wearing them.

DeeDee249,
Were not all the gifts opened? i.e they were all Partially Wrapped. Patsy would not need to open all her gifts to find the size-12's, either she would recognize the gift-wrapping or as you suggest it was name-tagged, which strengthens the idea that BR opened the gifts?

I agree with most of your version of events. I think the ligature/paintbrush was chosen to mask a prior neck injury, her head injury is debatable, but appears to be functionless as a staging element.

So you reckon Patsy lied through her teeth when questioned about the size-12's even although she knew there were none in JonBenet's underwear drawer?

.

 

[andreww]

As we know, there were no real hand restraints. One wrist didn't even have a cord on it at all. The autopsy made NO note of marks on her wrists- there was nothing to indicate she had been bound at all, let alone "tightly bound" as JR claimed. He knew she was dead. She looked dead, she smelled dead (according to Det Arndt). Ad her arms were up over her face with nothing to support them.
FW was right behind JR as they entered the winecellar. He knew what her body looked like in situ and he also saw exactly what JR did or didn't do. I would hope he shared that with police, even though he did not share it with the public.

We really don't know much about the hand restraints because like every other piece of supposed evidence, JR tampered with it before the police ever saw it.


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[andreww]

DeeDee249,
Were not all the gifts opened? i.e they were all Partially Wrapped. Patsy would not need to open all her gifts to find the size-12's, either she would recognize the gift-wrapping or as you suggest it was name-tagged, which strengthens the idea that BR opened the gifts?

I agree with most of your version of events. I think the ligature/paintbrush was chosen to mask a prior neck injury, her head injury is debatable, but appears to be functionless as a staging element.

So you reckon Patsy lied through her teeth when questioned about the size-12's even although she knew there were none in JonBenet's underwear drawer?

.

I'd go so far as to say that every word out of her mouth was a lie. If you are to believe that J&P are responsible, then absolutely nothing in her deposition would have happened the way she reported it.


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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Were not all the gifts opened? i.e they were all Partially Wrapped. Patsy would not need to open all her gifts to find the size-12's, either she would recognize the gift-wrapping or as you suggest it was name-tagged, which strengthens the idea that BR opened the gifts?

I agree with most of your version of events. I think the ligature/paintbrush was chosen to mask a prior neck injury, her head injury is debatable, but appears to be functionless as a staging element.

So you reckon Patsy lied through her teeth when questioned about the size-12's even although she knew there were none in JonBenet's underwear drawer?

.

We don't know if all the gifts were opened. We don't know how many gifts were opened and we don't know whose gifts were opened. The same gift wrap could have been used to wrap all the gifts or many of them- we have never seen photos of them all.
I think Patsy lied through her teeth about pretty much everything. She knew there were none in her drawer because she knew the rest of them were still in the package. This was proved when she sent the package to LE 5 years later, the remaining panties still inside.

 

[UKGuy]

We don't know if all the gifts were opened. We don't know how many gifts were opened and we don't know whose gifts were opened. The same gift wrap could have been used to wrap all the gifts or many of them- we have never seen photos of them all.
I think Patsy lied through her teeth about pretty much everything. She knew there were none in her drawer because she knew the rest of them were still in the package. This was proved when she sent the package to LE 5 years later, the remaining panties still inside.

DeeDee249,
BBM: So what do we know? That Patsy lied prior to being informed that JonBenet's underwear drawer contained no size-12 underwear, is not the same as saying she knew they would be discovered many years later. Hardly a momentous forensic dicovery?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
BBM: So what do we know? That Patsy lied prior to being informed that JonBenet's underwear drawer contained no size-12 underwear, is not the same as saying she knew they would be discovered many years later. Hardly a momentous forensic dicovery?


.

What we KNOW is that Patsy lied about putting the panties in JB's drawer. I never said she knew they would be discovered and sent to police many (5, to be exact) years later. The discovery was "momentous" because is proved Patsy lied abut putting them in her drawer. Nothing more than that.

 

[andreww]

I don't think you will ever be able to say Patsy lied about anything because if you look at her statements she never says she is 100% sure of anything. She is always careful to preface statements with "I think I might have" or "I probably would have" and end the statement with "but I really don't remember". I'm sure her lawyers beat those phrases in to her head! The only thing she is certain of is that she, John or Burke didn't do it, which is odd because during the time of the murder she was supposedly asleep. How could she possibly be certain of that???


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[DeeDee249]

I don't think you will ever be able to say Patsy lied about anything because if you look at her statements she never says she is 100% sure of anything. She is always careful to preface statements with "I think I might have" or "I probably would have" and end the statement with "but I really don't remember". I'm sure her lawyers beat those phrases in to her head! The only thing she is certain of is that she, John or Burke didn't do it, which is odd because during the time of the murder she was supposedly asleep. How could she possibly be certain of that???


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Of course, one of the reasons the defense team made sure plenty of time elapsed before police actually questioned the parents is so that they would be able to say "I don't remember".

 

[UKGuy]

I don't think you will ever be able to say Patsy lied about anything because if you look at her statements she never says she is 100% sure of anything. She is always careful to preface statements with "I think I might have" or "I probably would have" and end the statement with "but I really don't remember". I'm sure her lawyers beat those phrases in to her head! The only thing she is certain of is that she, John or Burke didn't do it, which is odd because during the time of the murder she was supposedly asleep. How could she possibly be certain of that???


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andreww,
On the subject of the size-12's, Patsy stated she placed them into JonBenet's underwear drawer, the investigators say none were found in the drawer.

This suggests someone other than Patsy removed them from the drawer, or that they were never there in first place, i.e. Patsy is lying through her teeth.

In this context Patsy's memory is not in question, its actually the opposite, since she remembers the purchase and subsequent agreement to give them to JonBenet.

So who is she lying for, is it BR, since she realizes he was opening gifts on Christmas day, or is it JR who removed the size-6 underwear along with the size-12 underwear since he had contaminated it all with his forensic evidence?

.

 

[Frigga]

All of these posts have me thinking about those stupid size 12 Bloomies.

I wonder why Patsy sent them, all those years later.

Why didn't she get rid of them?

 

[andreww]

Probably because they do nothing to show her guilt. It might have been helpful if she said where they were on January 26th 1996, but whatever. The Ramsey's liked to do stuff like that to show how much they were cooperating with LE. That was sarcasm in case you didn't catch it