Does Pam Paugh Know Anything About JB's Murder?

[UKGuy]

All of these posts have me thinking about those stupid size 12 Bloomies.

I wonder why Patsy sent them, all those years later.

Why didn't she get rid of them?

Frigga,
BBM: because it meant they had always been in the house just like Patsy claimed. Otherwise it meant the Intruder removed five pairs of bloomingdale's underwear!


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[andreww]

Frigga,
BBM: because it meant they had always been in the house just like Patsy claimed. Otherwise it meant the Intruder removed five pairs of bloomingdale's underwear!



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Yes, but the million dollar question is where were they and why weren't they discovered by police? If they were in fact a gift for the niece, they should have been with the unwrapped gifts in the WC. They weren't. If they were JBs, they should have been hidden in her underwear drawer. They weren't. So where exactly were they? Obviously they were concealed after the crime, found later and returned to LE without explanation.

Makes me wonder what other items LE missed in the search or were removed from the house by the Rs.

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[Darlene733510]

If I remember correctly, the gifts were opened as though a knife had been used, not just torn open. We know BR's knife was found nearby. The knife had been hidden by the housekeeper, and PR knew where LP hid the knife. So.....was that knife given back to BR, or did PR use it to slit those packages to get to the size 12 panties? I would think that if BR wanted to see what was in the packages, he would just tear them open.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, but the million dollar question is where were they and why weren't they discovered by police? If they were in fact a gift for the niece, they should have been with the unwrapped gifts in the WC. They weren't. If they were JBs, they should have been hidden in her underwear drawer. They weren't. So where exactly were they? Obviously they were concealed after the crime, found later and returned to LE without explanation.

Makes me wonder what other items LE missed in the search or were removed from the house by the Rs.

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andreww,
BBM: The same place JonBenet's size-6 underwear ended up!

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[UKGuy]

If I remember correctly, the gifts were opened as though a knife had been used, not just torn open. We know BR's knife was found nearby. The knife had been hidden by the housekeeper, and PR knew where LP hid the knife. So.....was that knife given back to BR, or did PR use it to slit those packages to get to the size 12 panties? I would think that if BR wanted to see what was in the packages, he would just tear them open.

Darlene733510,
Well scissors or a knife was needed to break the plastic seal. Someone said JonBenet could never have accomplished this simply using her fingers.

BBM: Good point, if it all stacks up then it puts Patsy further in the frame.

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[DeeDee249]

Darlene733510,
Well scissors or a knife was needed to break the plastic seal. Someone said JonBenet could never have accomplished this simply using her fingers.

BBM: Good point, if it all stacks up then it puts Patsy further in the frame.

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Not all of those panty sets had to be cut open. Some came in clear plastic tubes that had a lid at one end that could be popped off. Some came in a plastic pouch that had a snap opening. Not sure whether the set Patsy brought opened in any of those ways, but it is possible.

 

[elannia]

Any thoughts about DP here? I posted some on another thread but this one would be more appropriate.

 

[UKGuy]

Any thoughts about DP here? I posted some on another thread but this one would be more appropriate.

elannia,
Well there is no forensic evidence linking him to JonBenet's death. So while he did play a role in Jonbenet's life, its unlikely he was involved in that tragic nights events.

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[carolbell]

The police were in charge, they should have controlled and inventoried what she took. It is not her fault, it is the police who didn't stop her. I believed they did but not too thorough.

 

[carolbell]

B.R. admitted he opened packages earlier in the day. He had a birthday coming up and patsy had more presents for them to take to Michigan. He was a child, just curious

 

[andreww]

B.R. admitted he opened packages earlier in the day. He had a birthday coming up and patsy had more presents for them to take to Michigan. He was a child, just curious

Didn't John take the Michigan presents to the plane? Why were they in the basement still if the Ramsey's were leaving so early?


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[UKGuy]

Didn't John take the Michigan presents to the plane? Why were they in the basement still if the Ramsey's were leaving so early?


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andreww,
Why were they in the wine-cellar? Can you imagine Patsy wrapping gifts in the wine-cellar?

Those opened gifts must be linked in some manner to JonBenet's death, even if it's only via the size-12's, although there might be another explanation that involves the barbie doll, was it also gift wrapped?

That the doll was glided over during the R's questioning is breathtaking!

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[OliviaG1996]

Didn't John take the Michigan presents to the plane? Why were they in the basement still if the Ramsey's were leaving so early?


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I really do think the presents found in the wine cellar were BR's birthday presents. If they were, the Rs weren't going to take the presents with them to Michigan because the trip wasn't going to last until the end of January, as they were only visiting for Christmas. Like UKGuy suggests, I believe the presents had to do with what took place later that night. JMO.

 

[BoldBear]

Patsy wrapped gifts in the laundry room. "My Twin Doll" was hidden in the laundry room on a top shelf (DOI).

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy wrapped gifts in the laundry room. "My Twin Doll" was hidden in the laundry room on a top shelf (DOI).

BoldBear,
BBM: So why were the partially opened gifts found in the wine-cellar? They cannot all have been BR's birthday gifts!

Did the barbie-doll found in the wine-cellar originate from an opened gift? I reckon this might have been used to encourage JonBenet to participate in abusive behaviour.

I view the wine-cellar as less of a staged crime-scene but more a place to dump incriminating evidence.

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[DeeDee249]

BoldBear,
BBM: So why were the partially opened gifts found in the wine-cellar? They cannot all have been BR's birthday gifts!

Did the barbie-doll found in the wine-cellar originate from an opened gift? I reckon this might have been used to encourage JonBenet to participate in abusive behaviour.

I view the wine-cellar as less of a staged crime-scene but more a place to dump incriminating evidence.

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We all have seen pictures of that wine cellar- filthy mold-covered floor, debris and paint cans, old screens. There is NO way Patsy would wrap presents in there (as she told LE she did) and no way anyone would need to hide presents in a place like that in a huge house that had to have many more suitable places. IMO, the presents were in the wineceller because whoever wiped the blood from JB's thighs and pubic area, and whoever redressed her were LOOKING for the new gift set of panties meant for Patsy's niece and was likely already wrapped up with some of her other gifts. I do not buy that it was BR snooping to see what they got for Christmas. He was old enough to know his parents could see the presents had been partially opened. Besides that, Patsy had her own version of why there were partially unwrapped presents in there- she said she had "forgotten" what was in the boxes. If she wrapped the way a normal person wraps a gift- a name tag is on the box. What difference does it make what is in a specific box? It ONLY matters if you need to remove something from a box and aren't sure which box it is in. There is no other reason to "partially" unwrap it. As for the Barbie doll in the room- this topic has been tossed around for many years. Long ago, Tricia reported that she had from an "impeccable source" that there was, indeed, a boxed Barbie doll in the winecellar with the body. Photos show it not ON the blanket, but tossed to the side. Of course, we do not know exactly where it was when JR removed JB's body from the blanket. I have never seen in ANY deposition or interview where JR was asked about the Barbie doll. He was asked about the Barbie nightie, but not the doll. If those of you who are long-time posters here recall, the boxed doll in the photo looked like the 1996 Holiday Barbie, something that is very likely to have been a gift to JB or her cousin (who was supposed to receive the panty gift set). It may have been wrapped as a gift for Jenny, and unwrapped in the process of getting the panty set. One thing that was also never looked into...was there a SECOND Holiday Barbie upstairs under the Christmas Tree that obviously WOULD have been JB's gift? We do not know, because LE never asked. And the RST made a big deal out of the "kidnapper" putting "Her favorite doll" in with her body. First- how would a kidnapper, especially a "small foreign faction", know which was her favorite doll? It may not even have been her doll.
I agree that the doll originated from a wrapped and then opened gift, but I don't see how it would have encouraged her to engage in abusive (i.e. sexual) behavior. I also disagree about the wine cellar being nothing more than a place to dump evidence (including the body). I think it was a place to HIDE the body temporarily until police left the house and the Rs could say they "found" her- dead.

 

[andreww]

Who knows? The doll certainly could have been used as bait to lure JBR to the WC. But then that would also mean that she was awake in the basement and that is where the head bash occurred. I'm fine with that but I know others have argued that she had marks that indicated she'd been dragged. I don't put much stock in the dragging theory however.


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[UKGuy]

We all have seen pictures of that wine cellar- filthy mold-covered floor, debris and paint cans, old screens. There is NO way Patsy would wrap presents in there (as she told LE she did) and no way anyone would need to hide presents in a place like that in a huge house that had to have many more suitable places. IMO, the presents were in the wineceller because whoever wiped the blood from JB's thighs and pubic area, and whoever redressed her were LOOKING for the new gift set of panties meant for Patsy's niece and was likely already wrapped up with some of her other gifts. I do not buy that it was BR snooping to see what they got for Christmas. He was old enough to know his parents could see the presents had been partially opened. Besides that, Patsy had her own version of why there were partially unwrapped presents in there- she said she had "forgotten" what was in the boxes. If she wrapped the way a normal person wraps a gift- a name tag is on the box. What difference does it make what is in a specific box? It ONLY matters if you need to remove something from a box and aren't sure which box it is in. There is no other reason to "partially" unwrap it. As for the Barbie doll in the room- this topic has been tossed around for many years. Long ago, Tricia reported that she had from an "impeccable source" that there was, indeed, a boxed Barbie doll in the winecellar with the body. Photos show it not ON the blanket, but tossed to the side. Of course, we do not know exactly where it was when JR removed JB's body from the blanket. I have never seen in ANY deposition or interview where JR was asked about the Barbie doll. He was asked about the Barbie nightie, but not the doll. If those of you who are long-time posters here recall, the boxed doll in the photo looked like the 1996 Holiday Barbie, something that is very likely to have been a gift to JB or her cousin (who was supposed to receive the panty gift set). It may have been wrapped as a gift for Jenny, and unwrapped in the process of getting the panty set. One thing that was also never looked into...was there a SECOND Holiday Barbie upstairs under the Christmas Tree that obviously WOULD have been JB's gift? We do not know, because LE never asked. And the RST made a big deal out of the "kidnapper" putting "Her favorite doll" in with her body. First- how would a kidnapper, especially a "small foreign faction", know which was her favorite doll? It may not even have been her doll.
I agree that the doll originated from a wrapped and then opened gift, but I don't see how it would have encouraged her to engage in abusive (i.e. sexual) behavior. I also disagree about the wine cellar being nothing more than a place to dump evidence (including the body). I think it was a place to HIDE the body temporarily until police left the house and the Rs could say they "found" her- dead.

DeeDee249,

Besides that, Patsy had her own version of why there were partially unwrapped presents in there- she said she had "forgotten" what was in the boxes.

Sure, so she was always going to open them because she forgot to name tag them, duh!

The barbie doll might have nothing to do with the opened gifts it might have originated somewhere upstairs, say JonBenet's bedroom?

Sure JonBenet was hidden in the wine-cellar, but so was other stuff, e.g. pink barbie nightgown with BR's touch-dna on it, the partially opened gifts, were these dna tested? On the dna aspect, if there are enough markers available then it should be able to work out if the touch-dna on the size-12's came from some asian factory worker. Basically they can determine which continent the donor came from, e.g. Oceania, Western Eurasia, Eastern Eurasia, etc. Here is an old link, check the date: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/10/01/science/for-sale-a-dna-test-to-measure-racial-mix.html

Whats the difference between JR finding JonBenet early on and either JR or PR phoning later that evening to report finding JonBenet?

Is it a coincidence that there was a pink barbie nightgown and a barbie doll found in the wine-cellar?

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[TheCuriousFrog]

Whats the difference between JR finding JonBenet early on and either JR or PR phoning later that evening to report finding JonBenet?


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^^This.

They/she would also have not left the body in their home, knowing that it would incriminate them. If Patsy knew Jonbenet was in the basement and would be found, wouldn't she have gone down there to "discover" it herself?

 

[TheCuriousFrog]

Who knows? The doll certainly could have been used as bait to lure JBR to the WC. But then that would also mean that she was awake in the basement and that is where the head bash occurred. I'm fine with that but I know others have argued that she had marks that indicated she'd been dragged. I don't put much stock in the dragging theory however.


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Her parents would not have needed a doll to lure her, so if that's true, it wasn't them.