Does Skyline school bear any responsibility?

[wondering1]

I worked in a pre-school many moons ago ( about 20 years ago) and on the application we told ALL parents that if you think in this year someone might have to pick your child up instead of you we will need a copy of their DL on file. THen all the parent had to do was call in and say Grammy is picking up little Hannah today and we would say tell her to bring in her DL. But, if Grammy just showed up without that call...she couldn't have granchild. Even if we KNEW them...it had to be backed up with a call or in writing. Most of the people I was in contact with thanked many times. One I will never forget....his grammy came to get him and she was a nurse...as I could tell in her scrubs. He was so excited to see her..and I knew that he knew her...but I said to her..I don't know you and I know his Grammy is picking him up..I need to see you DL. And she said I will show you everything I have and I am so thankful that you do this...most folks that want that extra measure when it comes to their kids. I am not laying blame on the school yet. I want to know what the said teacher did after she thought Kyron was in the bathroom.

What did you do to confirm that the person called in giving Grammy permisson was the parent with authority to do so? I've had to do this with my kids in pre-school and was grateful that they took my word over the phone. But if you're worried about abuse, nothing short of photo i.d. and signatures of permitted persons, confirmed by the authorizing person, and the authorized person, in person, at the time of the authorization and the pick up will do. And this NEVER happens. And that's fine with me.

 

[human]

What did you do to confirm that the person called in giving Grammy permisson was the parent with authority to do so? I've had to do this with my kids in pre-school and was grateful that they took my word over the phone. But if you're worried about abuse, nothing short of photo i.d. and signatures of permitted persons, confirmed by the authorizing person, and the authorized person, in person, at the time of the authorization and the pick up will do. And this NEVER happens. And that's fine with me.

wake up call for me again and so thankful that I am in a non-classroom job now.

I,too, allowed parents to call and say that someone not on the list was going to pick the child up. I asked for ID, but I did feel the person who was calling was the parent.

But how did I know FOR SURE?

 

[nonfictionrocks]

Ultimately, with regard to the culpability of the school, does the identity of the person responsible matter, or only that the person responsible was able to manipulate the vulnerabilities of the school in such a way that an innocent child was abducted and is likely deceased?



On Facebook, students at Skyline openly discussed a "creepy" (their word) guy they saw at the school that day. Who was the creepy guy? Did the creepy guy sign in? Is the creepy guy a father, uncle, or grandfather of one of the science fair participants? Why was he considered creepy? Why won't anyone address the the identity or even the existence of the creepy guy?

The identity of the man in the picture of Kyron was confirmed. What about creepy guy?

ARGH, I can't find a link to prior discussions about creepy guy. I'll work on finding it.

BBM

I have asked a couple of times about this "creep" before and never received any answer - is he just another square peg that does not fit into a round hole?

cypress, if you find an answer please draw my attention to what you find. TIA I will look for the reference as well.

 

[nanny2five]

imo, nomatter who is responsible for what happened to Kyron, i believe skyline school has some 'splainin' to do. i want to know why nobody was concerned and him gone all day. if th told the teacher that Kyron had an appt that day and it can be verified, then i believe that absolves the school of any responsibility in the matter. if th is not responsible then clearly the school should have protected Kyron from being randomly snatched out of the hallway. jmo, mho, imo and all that jazz

 

[cypress]

BBM

I have asked a couple of times about this "creep" before and never received any answer - is he just another square peg that does not fit into a round hole?

cypress, if you find an answer please draw my attention to what you find. TIA I will look for the reference as well.

I think there are references in the Back to the Beginning thread. I'm looking there now. I know for a fact discussion about a creepy guy between students at Skyline exists, though.

 

[nonfictionrocks]

I think there are references in the Back to the Beginning thread. I'm looking there now. I know for a fact discussion about a creepy guy between students at Skyline exists, though.

Here is one:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5463982&postcount=124"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5463982&postcount=124[/ame]

 

[Chili Fries]

Yes, the school is responsible to provide the safest environment possible for the children but that's probably easier said than done.

Even with extra procedures in place, the science fair and the fact that Terri is a regular, involved parent at the school might have given the same results anyway, especially if she did lead them to believe the doctor's appointment story. Anyway a parent who really wants to do something like Terri might have done would probably just find a way to game the system either way.

And of course Skyline showed how much they could screw it up in the other direction when they instituted a callback system the Monday after Kyron disappeared and Desiree got a call saying Kyron was absent (duh). Talk about insensitive.

I think some procedures can be a mixed blessing. The doors of my niece's school are locked from the outside which meant she was locked out when she accidentally went out the wrong door as a kindergartener. Thankfully she was smart enough to knock on a window and be let back in but that type of thing is scary, especially when the school is right next to a busy highway.

 

[Jules71]

If Terri did this, in the manner so many people here believe, and have described, the knowledge that this procedure existed may have stopped her, and I would say likely would have put the brakes on her, and likely Kyron would not now be missing. Terri would have known that shortly after 10, that roll sheet was going to hit the office, and Kyron being missing would have surfaced before 10:30.

Whether Terri did this or not, a sign out procedure and check against the teacher's roll I described would have, in the least, called to attention, hours and hours earlier, that Kyron was missing. It is well known that time is of the essence in missing child cases. The sooner it's known they're missing, the chances of them being found, alive, safe, and well, significantly increase. The stats can be found on NCMEC's site as well as the DOJ site. I'm happy to find them if anyone wants to take a look. Just holler.

I guess I just don't get it. I am all for sign out sheets - if they are going to be validated, looked at, etc. But in this situation neither Terri nor a predator/abductor is going to actually sign out the child - so checking the teacher's roll against 'no one signing out the child' = call to parents? Is that what you are saying? And if school hadn't officially started, would you still 'sign your child out' of school? I would not think so. I absolutely agree if your child is marked absent, a call needs to go home.

I guess I am trying to figure out if sign out sheets really work or not. I went to an assembly because my son was getting a award. Only the kids getting the awards and their parents/guests attended. It was held toward the end of the school day. This particular assembly ended about 10 mins. before school was to let out. The principal said we could take our student home, but to make sure to sign them out in the office first. About 1/2 the parents signed out their kid, the other half did not. Nothing is/was done with that sign out sheet. I'm sure the teachers did not expect the kids back in class and thought it would go until the end of school time. A child (that did not have parents at the assembly) could have been abducted and who would know - until that child did not make it home from school? Or, that kid's parent could have taken them without signing them out - did away with them - and then called the school later saying their kid didn't make it home. When asked later if they attended the assembly with their kid, they could say yes, but I had to leave to get back to work, so Susie went back to class and was to take the bus home as usual. See what I mean?

 

[Jules71]

Yes, the school is responsible to provide the safest environment possible for the children but that's probably easier said than done.

Even with extra procedures in place, the science fair and the fact that Terri is a regular, involved parent at the school might have given the same results anyway, especially if she did lead them to believe the doctor's appointment story. Anyway a parent who really wants to do something like Terri might have done would probably just find a way to game the system either way.

And of course Skyline showed how much they could screw it up in the other direction when they instituted a callback system the Monday after Kyron disappeared and Desiree got a call saying Kyron was absent (duh). Talk about insensitive.

I think some procedures can be a mixed blessing. The doors of my niece's school are locked from the outside which meant she was locked out when she accidentally went out the wrong door as a kindergartener. Thankfully she was smart enough to knock on a window and be let back in but that type of thing is scary, especially when the school is right next to a busy highway.

That is very scary! And just think of what a quiet and/or timid child might do in that situation. They could worry about getting in trouble and hide or something - who knows. Yikes.

 

[DairyGirl]

It depends on who took Kyron. If a random stranger got in and snatched him then by all means the school is responsible. But if his own step mother took him to a supposed drs appt then I don't see what the school did wrong legally. I have gone to countless school functions and most of them I did not sign in (talent shows, recognition awards). Maybe they will change their policies now but, as some one said, they had been doing this system for years and no one complained before. Even if someone had called after noticing he was gone who would they have talked to? Terri? By that point what was done was done and all she could have done was start the acting job earlier. I doubt it would have led to Kyron, unless it was before whatever happened. Then maybe she would have changed her mind and brought him back after his "appt" but that is doubtful.

 

[cypress]

Here is one:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5463982&postcount=124

Here's the original post:


Kids on FB are discussing this case. They claim that there was a "creepy" man at the school walking around by himself. They also said that the school was open for people to come and go.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5253270&postcount=251"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #1[/ame]

 

[Haeve]

Here's the original post:


Kids on FB are discussing this case. They claim that there was a "creepy" man at the school walking around by himself. They also said that the school was open for people to come and go.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - OR - Kyron Horman, 7 yo Second grader, Portland, 4 June 2010 - Part #1

I don't know anything about IB schools vis-a-vis these science expositions. Could Creepy Guy be some sort of IB reviewer or administrator? I know some admin types who would appear creepy while scrutinizing whatever is under their purview. Heck, most of my assistant principals in jr. high and high school were creepy. Would an event of this kind attract one of the IB Powers-that-be or a SD admin that the kids didn't know?

 

[nonfictionrocks]

I don't know anything about IB schools vis-a-vis these science expositions. Could Creepy Guy be some sort of IB reviewer or administrator? I know some admin types who would appear creepy while scrutinizing whatever is under their purview. Heck, most of my assistant principals in jr. high and high school were creepy. Would an event of this kind attract one of the IB Powers-that-be or a SD admin that the kids didn't know?

Could be, that is a good question, were the exhibits actually graded by an outside IB reviewer or just by internal staff?

 

[newone]

Immediately upon Kyron's disappearance I was outraged. I was blessed to have my kids attend schools where a ''real'' person would be calling me by 9:20 a.m. if my kid wasn't there. We had a very strenuous system of checks and balances in place. If a parent knew their child was going to be absent they called and spoke to the school secretary AND a note was written by me when my kid did return to school confirming the absence.

I am sorry I have a zero tolerance on this sort of stuff.

If at any time one of my kids was missing I would have a phone call -- that did happen once. I was at the school within 10 minutes and we found my kid that remained on the playground after recess was over. We all sighed a collective sigh of relief. During 'fairs' the teachers had sign in sheets for all of us. Kids started out in their home rooms, and were not released from school without home room teacher knowing. School outings were very much monitored. This lapse at Skyline is totally unacceptable.

 

[Donjeta]

Security cameras on the doors and some other spots should be mandatory at schools IMO. Although abductions from school are rare it is not just abductions that they can be useful to prevent or to solve, but theft, school violence, vandalism etc.

Clever perps can always find ways to avoid the cameras or avoid being recognizable in them but I'm all for making it as hard for them as possible. The call system for absences would be nice too but my children's school doesn't have it either.

If it was Terri I'm not sure that the school having stricter sign out procedures would mean that Kyron would be accounted for today. If she was really determined to let him go missing she would have figured out some other plan. If it was a random stranger who just wandered in to stare at kids and nobody asked anything then the school has a security problem for sure.

 

[Aedrys]

It depends on who took Kyron. If a random stranger got in and snatched him then by all means the school is responsible. But if his own step mother took him to a supposed drs appt then I don't see what the school did wrong legally. I have gone to countless school functions and most of them I did not sign in (talent shows, recognition awards). Maybe they will change their policies now but, as some one said, they had been doing this system for years and no one complained before. Even if someone had called after noticing he was gone who would they have talked to? Terri? By that point what was done was done and all she could have done was start the acting job earlier. I doubt it would have led to Kyron, unless it was before whatever happened. Then maybe she would have changed her mind and brought him back after his "appt" but that is doubtful.

ITA. While I am all for better procedures in that school, if Terri did trick them, that is not their fault. I hate the thought of blaming the school if she's the one that took Kyron from it. I see her using the school as a scapegoat there, and that just isn't fair to me. Sign in procedures would be helpful, but I am not jumping on a "if the school did this, Kyron would be okay" bandwagon. So the school is completely to blame for his kidnapping and murder? Then geez, shut it down if that's bad.

Now if it's a predator that took him, then yes, the school should shoulder some more responsibility. I think I came across wrong in my earlier post, and I didn't mean to. I don't think the school should be completely absolved if a predator and not Terri did this. Obviously, better procedures need to be in place if a predator has picked this school as a good place to grab kids. In that case, they failed to protect him and should shoulder responsibility for that.

However, we don't know if the school could have prevented this by a sign in sheet, especially if it was Terri that took Kyron and hurt him. Legally, even if she had signed a sheet saying he had appointment that day, they couldn't have stopped her from taking him, or God forbid automatically be suspicious about it and called the police. She has every right to take him out of that school if that's what she wants to do.

Basically, the school is responsible for protecting children from predators, but I would think their hands are tied if it's the parent that takes the kid and does something to that kid. They can't tell a parent not to take their kid out of school. That parent can lie about an appointment, even sign a sheet with a day and time on it for the appointment, but still, the school will let that child go with that parent. They are not responsible for what a parent does to a kid outside of the school.

I just didn't want this thread turning into let's bash the school because they are solely responsible for what happened to Kyron. I think that's way harsh, especially if it's Terri that did take Kyron and not a predator. It's just something else for her to blame this on, and that's not fair at all if she is the criminal here.

Schools can only do so much, and while they should do more, I don't think we can just point a finger at them and blame them for this whole case. It does worry me that if this was a predator abduction, this predator thought this school was a good picking ground, and in that case, the school definitely should step up security features. But I'm not laying the blame for what happened to Kyron entirely at the school's feet. Regardless of their mistakes, a PERSON took Kyron and probably killed him. A school did not hurt or kill Kyron.

 

[eyes4crime]

Just logged on and need to say a few things. Geeeze! :twocents:

If the school isn't responsible for making sure children are safe during the day - who is? What's the alternative? Parents' patrolling the hallways?

Just think of how many hours your child is in school over an 8 year span!!

Can the cost of implementing policies/procedures and placement of cameras be so great that it overrides the safety of children?

To say this school is remiss in the safety of its children is an understatement. Why aren't the parents screaming? I know I would be!

A school that provides a safe and predictable learning environment for all children will tend to ward off parental custody battles, predators, kidnappers, bullying, and other situations that cause harm to the child. all just my opinions

ETA: If Terri can trick the school - so can a predator! moo

 

[akashana]

I say no. This is a school in an area where something like this, I assume, either hasn't happened in a long time or has never happened at that school. Yes, it stinks that the staff was easily tricked by a confusing appointment, but I would never blame them for what happened to Kyron. TH took advantage of that school and it's lax security practices to do what she did. I am not going to blame the school when it was played by a cunning and manipulative woman, or even if by a predator. There is no way they could have known that he was kidnapped. I am sure every staff member feels terrible about what happened, and I am sure the kids are traumatized. It would add insult to injury to then blame them for what happened.

So no, I don't put any responsibility on them. I am sure they have learned their lesson and something like this won't happen again. I am sure they have tightened security and no teacher is just going to rely on a parent ever again for an appointment. I am sure they have to sign and verify the day and time a kid won't be there and even sign the kid out on the day of on top of that.

The responsibility should be shouldered by the person who did this, whether it's TH or a predator, and not the school. I see the school as a victim in all of this. How does it do any good to blame them for what happened to Kyron? It doesn't, and they shouldn't be blamed for it.

I respectfully disagree. Regardless of who abducted Kyron, the fact is that he was abducted while under the custody and care of Skyline School, in loco parentis etc. Simply because a child had never been abducted from the area, or that it "hasn't happened in a long time" doesn't excuse their negligence and laxity. You don't get a pass for something like that. We may never know if Kyron could have been located had the school noticed his absence and alerted Kaine and the police, but it certainly was not to his advantage to give his abductor a several hour headway to remove him and do whatever was done to him, dispose of evidence and establish an alibi. Whether it was stepmom or stranger, those hours were critical to the rescue and recovery of Kyron. Skyline dropped the ball and I believe will pay a high price. But not nearly as high a price as dear Kyron paid.

 

[akashana]

If it turns out Kyron was taken by a sexual predator, and Terri is absolutely innocent of any involvement in Kyron's disappearance or ultimate fate, will it change your minds about the responsibility of the school in this case?

Not at all.

 

[wondering1]

ITA. While I am all for better procedures in that school, if Terri did trick them, that is not their fault. I hate the thought of blaming the school if she's the one that took Kyron from it. I see her using the school as a scapegoat there, and that just isn't fair to me. Sign in procedures would be helpful, but I am not jumping on a "if the school did this, Kyron would be okay" bandwagon. So the school is completely to blame for his kidnapping and murder? Then geez, shut it down if that's bad.

Now if it's a predator that took him, then yes, the school should shoulder some more responsibility. I think I came across wrong in my earlier post, and I didn't mean to. I don't think the school should be completely absolved if a predator and not Terri did this. Obviously, better procedures need to be in place if a predator has picked this school as a good place to grab kids. In that case, they failed to protect him and should shoulder responsibility for that.


However, we don't know if the school could have prevented this by a sign in sheet, especially if it was Terri that took Kyron and hurt him. Legally, even if she had signed a sheet saying he had appointment that day, they couldn't have stopped her from taking him, or God forbid automatically be suspicious about it and called the police. She has every right to take him out of that school if that's what she wants to do.

Basically, the school is responsible for protecting children from predators, but I would think their hands are tied if it's the parent that takes the kid and does something to that kid. They can't tell a parent not to take their kid out of school. That parent can lie about an appointment, even sign a sheet with a day and time on it for the appointment, but still, the school will let that child go with that parent. They are not responsible for what a parent does to a kid outside of the school.

I just didn't want this thread turning into let's bash the school because they are solely responsible for what happened to Kyron. I think that's way harsh, especially if it's Terri that did take Kyron and not a predator. It's just something else for her to blame this on, and that's not fair at all if she is the criminal here.

Schools can only do so much, and while they should do more, I don't think we can just point a finger at them and blame them for this whole case. It does worry me that if this was a predator abduction, this predator thought this school was a good picking ground, and in that case, the school definitely should step up security features. But I'm not laying the blame for what happened to Kyron entirely at the school's feet. Regardless of their mistakes, a PERSON took Kyron and probably killed him. A school did not hurt or kill Kyron.

fwiw, I didn't mean to lump you in with my way of thinking by agreeing with your op. All the flack can and should come raining down on me. I don't think taking precautions to protect children IN A SCHOOL from predators is worthwhile. Almost all of the time in elem. school, in particular, abductors or abusers are parents or teachers.

It's a waste of resources, imo, since what happened to kyron is either typical, and unpreventable (a *parent* abduction) or so random and rare as to not warrant extra precautions. jmoo.