Does the State's Case Have Any Weaknesses? What Are They?

[Devon]

Tim Miller will take care of that. I hope he is a witness for the prosecution.

Do you know something we don't?

 

[Searchfortruth]

I hear you but still.... I really don't understand why it matters. She IS dead and she DID have duct tape on her mouth. Ya don't duct tape a dead person. It is crazy to think that KC staged the sceen. No evidence points to that. If she was staging it, you would think she'd know better than to hide the body 500 yards from her own house WITH contents FROM her own house.

The only thing it does, IMO, is give the defense room to argue that the state can not be sure it wasn't an accidental death. I am not saying they will win that argument, I don't think they will...but it does give them something to throw at the jury. I believe all of the evidence showing an intentional homicide will persuade the jury, 31 days and not calling LE, the party pics after the murder, the lies told, the disposal of the body...all point to an attempt at a cover up...if the death was an accident why the need to cover up ?

 

[Devon]

Im sure the DP is back on the table for a darn good reason yet unknown to us, They just didn't pull things out of thier rear end just because they felt it was a good Ideal to slap her with DP

No doubt there IS a good reason to put the DP back into the equation, but whether that is because they have some damning evidence or whether it's a tactical move remains to be seen.

 

[coco puff]

Based on the evidence presented to the public so far...

1. The State doesn't have a cause of death.
2. The State doesn't know where the death occurred.
3. The State doesn't know exactly when the death occurred.
4. The State doesn't have any evidence directly linking KC to the death.
5. The State doesn't have any evidence of prior abuse or history of neglect.
6. The State doesn't have any evidence to suggest KC would be capable (mentally, morally) of coldly murdering her daughter.
7. Several of the State's witnesses (KC's friends) all seemed to turn on her at the same time the media frenzy started, indicating they wanted to distance themselves from her only after the case broke and didn't have issues with her before. This suggests there are other reasons they are all so 'ready' to testify against her, weakening their credibility as character witnesses.
8. KW and DC will both testify that they searched the woods and didn't find a body, which will place some skepticism on claims the body was there since August.
9. Investigators/LE screwed up a few times (eg, additional hairs found in the car, premature/accidental release of jail videos, etc) that may render some forensic and other evidence inadmissible or other technical/procedural issues.

IMO, the State has a lot of work to do... which is as it should be.

If they didn't find her remains (sorry G) your points would be well taken.

BUT:

She IS dead
Someone DID kill her
Her primary care giver was the one last seen with her
Her primary care giver DID NOT report her missing
Her primary care giver gave ALL false information
Her primary care giver showed NO remorse for the loss of her daughter
Her primary care giver had the smell of death and hair in HER car
Her primary care giver had dogs hit on decomp in HER yard
No one else had ANY motive for the killing of a two year old
Many have killed their kids with no past sign of neglect, abuse or prior trouble with the law.

 

[Mendara]

Do you know something we don't?

I meant he will take care of the of the doubt about the search being done in the very area by several people where she was found, the defense may say her body wasn't there, but wa splanted there. However, I think Tim's testimony and that of the condition of the body will clear that up.

 

[Mendara]

If they didn't find her remains (sorry G) your points would be well taken.

BUT:

She IS dead
Someone DID kill her
Her primary care giver was the one last seen with her
Her primary care giver DID NOT report her missing
Her primary care giver gave ALL false information
Her primary care giver showed NO remorse for the loss of her daughter
Her primary care giver had the smell of death and hair in HER car
Her primary care giver had dogs hit on decomp in HER yard
No one else had ANY motive for the killing of a two year old
Many have killed their kids with no past sign of neglect, abuse or prior trouble with the law.

I hope similar to the Scott Peterson trial that the prosecution puts together a list of why KC is the only one responsible for Caylee death. I believe they had a list of "25 reason's why SP is guilty" - they read off the list during the closing arguments and many jurors said this was the momment of clarity.

 

[Devon]

If they didn't find her remains (sorry G) your points would be well taken.

BUT:

She IS dead
Someone DID kill her
Her primary care giver was the one last seen with her
Her primary care giver DID NOT report her missing
Her primary care giver gave ALL false information
Her primary care giver showed NO remorse for the loss of her daughter
Her primary care giver had the smell of death and hair in HER car
Her primary care giver had dogs hit on decomp in HER yard
No one else had ANY motive for the killing of a two year old
Many have killed their kids with no past sign of neglect, abuse or prior trouble with the law.

How do you know she was 'killed' BY someone?

 

[Devon]

I meant he will take care of the of the doubt about the search being done in the very area by several people where she was found, the defense may say her body wasn't there, but wa splanted there. However, I think Tim's testimony and that of the condition of the body will clear that up.

Ah right - but my post was about the computer searches.

 

[JSR]

Unfortunately, I haven't seen anything that PROVES Casey used chloroform. A search on her computer is not enough to PROVE that she used it.. even if chloroform is found.. where is the link that shows CASEY was the one that used it.

I guess the point is circumstantial evidence can have a jury go either way. Add the DP and I think they really have to show HOW Casey did it or have physical evidence to show Casey's connection to the chloroform.

IMO

Well we do know chloroform was in large quantities in Casey's car. And it just happens to also have a hair with a death band that matches up genetically to Caylee, albeit only mitochondially. But they can also probably match it to the hair found with the body. We also haven't seen toxicology reports back yet, which could show long term chloroform use. And combine that with the computer searches which they can probably show that only Casey could have made. You have a very solid circumstantial case.

Also remember we haven't seen all the results back, and we're not privy to all the evidence. We don't know if the duck tape came back with Caylee's DNA which would prove she was alive and awake when the tape was placed on her. There is still a whole lot yet to be known about the forensic tests in this case.

No case is perfect. But you can have a very solid circumstantial case that can lead you to come to only one conclusion. You might be able to explain away some evidence but combining it all together to put this nice little puzzle together, it's impossible to come to any other REASONABLE conclusion.

 

[BetsyB]

I don't think Casey will look very pretty to any of the jurors once they hear the horrifying details about how she murdered her baby, went out and partied and told lie after lie to the police.
Anything the defense thinks they have to buffer the truth will be insignificant compared to the evidence the State holds.

Particularly once they are able to observe her behavior in the courtroom.

She won't even need to get on the stand. The jurors will "hear" plenty of "testimony" from her.

 

[BetsyB]

I think the searches can very reasonably (and possibly accurately) be explained away, as our very own member JWG has already demonstrated through some very logical analysis of the evidence, and the 31 days IMO are because she doesn't have the guts to own up to what really happened, but that could very well be because she has some responsibility for Caylee's death, even if she didn't actually murder her.

The thing that pokes so many holes into this theory---so many that it becomes a sieve---is Casey's demeanor in Blockbuster.

Let's say she somehow accidentally contributed to Caylee's death. OK--that seems plausible on the surface.

It is rendered wholly implausible by her behavior in the hours and days immediately following.

Her behavior is not one of a scared young woman afraid to own up to a horrendous accident. It is that of a cold-blooded sociopath.

That, in and of itself, give the SA a great deal of ammunition.

 

[Skully]

Every time I think any doubt about WHO did this, I go back to KC's actions during the 31 days and the car. 31 days, decomposition smell in car, Caylee's hair with death band in KC's car. The partying and drinking, sleeping around, the carefree attitude when her child is supposedly kidnapped and missing, in danger with a crazy nanny. You can't get past that. Not to mention KC said she is close to home, hello the crime scene. There are items that came from her home, that a nanny wouldn't have access to, because she was never in the home. I don't think there is a problem with the case, not even if the body was put there later, someone in the family may have done that or had someone do it to cause doubt.

 

[coco puff]

How do you know she was 'killed' BY someone?

you don't put duct tape on a dead body.

 

[Searchfortruth]

Based on the evidence presented to the public so far...

1. The State doesn't have a cause of death.
2. The State doesn't know where the death occurred.
3. The State doesn't know exactly when the death occurred.
4. The State doesn't have any evidence directly linking KC to the death.
5. The State doesn't have any evidence of prior abuse or history of neglect.
6. The State doesn't have any evidence to suggest KC would be capable (mentally, morally) of coldly murdering her daughter.
7. Several of the State's witnesses (KC's friends) all seemed to turn on her at the same time the media frenzy started, indicating they wanted to distance themselves from her only after the case broke and didn't have issues with her before. This suggests there are other reasons they are all so 'ready' to testify against her, weakening their credibility as character witnesses.
8. KW and DC will both testify that they searched the woods and didn't find a body, which will place some skepticism on claims the body was there since August.
9. Investigators/LE screwed up a few times (eg, additional hairs found in the car, premature/accidental release of jail videos, etc) that may render some forensic and other evidence inadmissible or other technical/procedural issues.

IMO, the State has a lot of work to do... which is as it should be.

I believe, from what we have seen, the things that were found with the remains that link back to the home, cloth laundry bag, duct tape, trash bag match, heart sticker, Winnie the Pooh blanket, the clothes Caylee was wearing, are all some of the strongest evidence yet. I think these things do link Casey to the scene very effectively. They can try to argue some other guy did it, but it's going to be real hard to convince a jury that the same guy had access to all those things in the A home.

 

[frenchvixen]

Based on the evidence presented to the public so far...

1. The State doesn't have a cause of death.
2. The State doesn't know where the death occurred.
3. The State doesn't know exactly when the death occurred.
4. The State doesn't have any evidence directly linking KC to the death.
5. The State doesn't have any evidence of prior abuse or history of neglect.
6. The State doesn't have any evidence to suggest KC would be capable (mentally, morally) of coldly murdering her daughter.
7. Several of the State's witnesses (KC's friends) all seemed to turn on her at the same time the media frenzy started, indicating they wanted to distance themselves from her only after the case broke and didn't have issues with her before. This suggests there are other reasons they are all so 'ready' to testify against her, weakening their credibility as character witnesses.
8. KW and DC will both testify that they searched the woods and didn't find a body, which will place some skepticism on claims the body was there since August.
9. Investigators/LE screwed up a few times (eg, additional hairs found in the car, premature/accidental release of jail videos, etc) that may render some forensic and other evidence inadmissible or other technical/procedural issues.

IMO, the State has a lot of work to do... which is as it should be.

Most of your points were not evident with SP either and he got the DP (hey that rhymes)

 

[logic13]

Well we do know chloroform was in large quantities in Casey's car. And it just happens to also have a hair with a death band that matches up genetically to Caylee, albeit only mitochondially. But they can also probably match it to the hair found with the body. We also haven't seen toxicology reports back yet, which could show long term chloroform use. And combine that with the computer searches which they can probably show that only Casey could have made. You have a very solid circumstantial case.

Also remember we haven't seen all the results back, and we're not privy to all the evidence. We don't know if the duck tape came back with Caylee's DNA which would prove she was alive and awake when the tape was placed on her. There is still a whole lot yet to be known about the forensic tests in this case.

No case is perfect. But you can have a very solid circumstantial case that can lead you to come to only one conclusion. You might be able to explain away some evidence but combining it all together to put this nice little puzzle together, it's impossible to come to any other REASONABLE conclusion.

BOLDED BY ME..

Exactly my point. I am hoping for testing to come back that does show a connection. I think that would help make a strong circumstantial case.

However, as I said to begin with... at this point I believe they are missing strong physical evidence that PROVES Casey intentionally killed her child. ( After all.. the name of this thread is "Does the state's case have any weaknesses? What are they?" :gavel:

Hopefully YOU are right and there is evidence we do NOT know about.. yet. As it sits I don't believe SA has a strong case.. unforunately.

 

[BetsyB]

you don't put duct tape on a dead body.

And it certainly doesn't appear spontaneously.

 

[Devon]

Well we do know chloroform was in large quantities in Casey's car. And it just happens to also have a hair with a death band that matches up genetically to Caylee, albeit only mitochondially. But they can also probably match it to the hair found with the body. We also haven't seen toxicology reports back yet, which could show long term chloroform use. And combine that with the computer searches which they can probably show that only Casey could have made. You have a very solid circumstantial case.

Also remember we haven't seen all the results back, and we're not privy to all the evidence. We don't know if the duck tape came back with Caylee's DNA which would prove she was alive and awake when the tape was placed on her. There is still a whole lot yet to be known about the forensic tests in this case.

No case is perfect. But you can have a very solid circumstantial case that can lead you to come to only one conclusion. You might be able to explain away some evidence but combining it all together to put this nice little puzzle together, it's impossible to come to any other REASONABLE conclusion.

The level of chloroform found in the forensic analyses of the car trunk was above the level normally found in a decomposition event of a comparable type, but there were not 'large quantities' of the compound. Also, IIRC, the ME stated that she did not expect the toxicology tests on the remains to yield anything of any value in determining the cause of death, and that's why she was going to certify the cause of death as 'by undetermined means'.

 

[circe257]

It is my sincere belief, or maybe hope, that the state has evidence that has yet to be released with regards to this case. Even with just what is public the DP comes into play due to the victim's age and the fact that she allegedly died at the hands of her mother. If it was a drug or physical abuse that led to her death - that also brings DP into play because both of those would be felonies. Also, please remember that pre-meditation can happen in an instant.

Additionally, the instructions to the jury won't include "no doubt" or "iron clad". The burden of proof is beyond a "reasonable" doubt. This means a juror can still have doubts so long as they would not affect a reasonable person's belief regarding guilt. Most people sitting on death row are convicted with circumstantial evidence, not iron clad definitive proof.

I believe the states problems/hurdles will consist of the following:

Homicidal death by undetermined means - Some people on the jury may feel sympathetic towards KC. She's young and attractive and let's face it most of the population have a hard time wrapping their head around the fact that a mother can kill her child. The state assumes Caylee was murdered due to her age at death, the duct tape and the disposal of her body. All circumstantial evidence.

Several people admit to being in the area where the remains were found, prior to them actually being found. RK and his group, DC, the guy who grew up down the street (forget his name) and the psychic with her dog (forget her name). I think the defense will play this angle for everything they can.

Deputy Cain. Was out near the remains site twice and fails to find anything.

Forensics. Missed evidence in the vehicle that was found by the defense. The defense has several experts on board to refute the state's science.

Forensics. A lot of this case will be scientific evidence and jurors may not understand it and be bored with a preponderance of it. Soil samples, bug samples, plant evidence, dirt evidence, computer logs, cell phone pings, etc.

Admissible Evidence A lot of things that are in the public eye may not make it into trial due to their highly prejudicial nature like all those partying pics, jail visit videos, etc. It will be interesting to see what is allowed in.

LE Mistakes No one is infallible, at least in this case. The defense will pick apart every mistake by LE both past and present and attempt to chip away at the case the state presents. Mayfield comes to mind off the top of my head - relatively recent case - although the charges were terrorism related he did successfully sue the FBI.

OJ Simpson Look at all the evidence they had against him....he walked.

There's probably more here, but I'm tired and have rambled long enough. Let's just hope this threat if futile and the state gets a conviction.

 

[spyhouston]

I heard the jury foreman on the Spector case today say that the jury had been asked over and over to look at the totality of the evidence, and that's what they had done in reaching the guilty verdict. The TOTALITY of evidence against KC will be her demise, even if there are a few weaknesses. Thank goodness!