Sharistoddard
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WHAT???????
Don't Count Him Out, William Thoresen III
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Sharistoddard
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Sharistoddard
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MY GUT SAYS U R RIGHT!!!!
Winward1
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Yesterday was the 55th anniversary of the murder of a sixth grader named Debbie Fijan who was stabbed to death outside of Chicago. If you're interested in the Zodiac case you might find some of this interesting. Her murder is unsolved. I posted this in a thread about her case on the anniversary:
As it is the anniversary of her passing this is my take on Debbie’s case, which I recently elaborated on in book form. She was murdered by a serial killer. And not just any serial killer, a serial mass murderer, one later known as Zodiac, the one not just me but others have theorized was behind murders elsewhere prior to his killings in the Bay Area.
His name was William Thoresen III. He was the son of a millionaire when a million bucks was still a million bucks. Adjusted for inflation his family were near billionaires. He drove a Ferrari, dated Playboy Playmates and hoarded weapons by the ton. Even if he hadn’t killed a fly his story is a case of rich dysfunction the likes I have not heard equalled by anyone. Unfortunately, however, he was a killing machine and he used his money, family’s status and looks for all they were worth.
Most notably he killed upwards of 50 people (a conservative estimate) in six states (also a conservative estimate.) He was from Kenilworth, Illinois. I came across him while investigating the Valerie Percy murder. After many years of extreme abuse, his wife blasted him to kingdom come. After all he did he got off easy.
Perhaps most important, in order to protect the jobs and reputations of numerous people in the justice system, his crimes were covered up and proof abounds of this (as I have also detailed in my latest book.) Yes, one of his victims was the daughter of a US Senator. The story is unbelievable. But, as far as this case goes, these are the facts:
Debbie was last seen talking with a man who was in a white car. Thoresen inherited a white Chevy Corvair in Chicago in late 1965.
One of Thoresen’s MOs was to talk people into his car, as police believe happened with Debbie.
The FBI believed Thoresen was a prime suspect in the murder of Valerie Percy.
Like Debbie, Valerie was slain in 1966.
Like Debbie, Valerie was slain in the Chicago suburbs.
Like Debbie, Valerie was stabbed repeatedly.
Like Debbie, Valerie was slain in a place where murder, let alone random murder, is unheard of.
Debbie was stabbed about the head, neck and upper body.
Valerie was stabbed in the neck, body and bludgeoned in the head.
I obtained a copy of Thoresen’s signature. It looks like writing on an envelope linked to the murder of presumed Zodiac victim Cheri Jo Bates.
Like Debbie and Valerie, Cheri Jo was slain in 1966.
Like Debbie, Cheri Jo was last seen at her school.
Like Debbie, Cheri Jo was stabbed about the head, neck and upper body.
Like Debbie, Cheri Jo was stabbed with a small-bladed knife.
Debbie’s body was left beside a road.
Cheri Jo’s body was left beside an alley.
Witnesses in Valerie and Cheri Jo’s cases described a suspect who fits Thoresen’s description. (Valerie’s stepmother was an eyewitness to her murder.)
The Zodiac Killer was active in San Francisco and the greater Bay Area.
From 1965 to 1970, Thoresen’s primary residence was in San Francisco.
Thoresen was a frequent traveler to Southern California, where Cheri Jo was murdered, starting in 1962.
The handwriting on an envelope linked to the Bates case looks like handwriting in a letter written to an Illinoian whose daughter and daughter's boyfriend were murdered in May, 1969, a time it has been assumed Zodiac was up to no good…somewhere.
Thoresen was a suspect in the murder of Judith Mae Anderson in Chicago in 1957. Anderson’s body was “neatly severed” while being dismembered.
Thoresen had numerous arrests for violent assaults. His wife said he was behind the murders of three people, including his brother whose body was found in Lake Forest, IL five months before Debbie's murder.
Officials have refused to release reports from Valerie and Debbie’s cases.
In Valerie’s case, five years ago, the village of Kenilworth spent a considerable amount of money fighting an FOIA suit a lawyer filed in order to gain access to the case’s files.
Meanwhile, there is no marker on Debbie’s grave.
As it is the anniversary of her passing this is my take on Debbie’s case, which I recently elaborated on in book form. She was murdered by a serial killer. And not just any serial killer, a serial mass murderer, one later known as Zodiac, the one not just me but others have theorized was behind murders elsewhere prior to his killings in the Bay Area.
His name was William Thoresen III. He was the son of a millionaire when a million bucks was still a million bucks. Adjusted for inflation his family were near billionaires. He drove a Ferrari, dated Playboy Playmates and hoarded weapons by the ton. Even if he hadn’t killed a fly his story is a case of rich dysfunction the likes I have not heard equalled by anyone. Unfortunately, however, he was a killing machine and he used his money, family’s status and looks for all they were worth.
Most notably he killed upwards of 50 people (a conservative estimate) in six states (also a conservative estimate.) He was from Kenilworth, Illinois. I came across him while investigating the Valerie Percy murder. After many years of extreme abuse, his wife blasted him to kingdom come. After all he did he got off easy.
Perhaps most important, in order to protect the jobs and reputations of numerous people in the justice system, his crimes were covered up and proof abounds of this (as I have also detailed in my latest book.) Yes, one of his victims was the daughter of a US Senator. The story is unbelievable. But, as far as this case goes, these are the facts:
Debbie was last seen talking with a man who was in a white car. Thoresen inherited a white Chevy Corvair in Chicago in late 1965.
One of Thoresen’s MOs was to talk people into his car, as police believe happened with Debbie.
The FBI believed Thoresen was a prime suspect in the murder of Valerie Percy.
Like Debbie, Valerie was slain in 1966.
Like Debbie, Valerie was slain in the Chicago suburbs.
Like Debbie, Valerie was stabbed repeatedly.
Like Debbie, Valerie was slain in a place where murder, let alone random murder, is unheard of.
Debbie was stabbed about the head, neck and upper body.
Valerie was stabbed in the neck, body and bludgeoned in the head.
I obtained a copy of Thoresen’s signature. It looks like writing on an envelope linked to the murder of presumed Zodiac victim Cheri Jo Bates.
Like Debbie and Valerie, Cheri Jo was slain in 1966.
Like Debbie, Cheri Jo was last seen at her school.
Like Debbie, Cheri Jo was stabbed about the head, neck and upper body.
Like Debbie, Cheri Jo was stabbed with a small-bladed knife.
Debbie’s body was left beside a road.
Cheri Jo’s body was left beside an alley.
Witnesses in Valerie and Cheri Jo’s cases described a suspect who fits Thoresen’s description. (Valerie’s stepmother was an eyewitness to her murder.)
The Zodiac Killer was active in San Francisco and the greater Bay Area.
From 1965 to 1970, Thoresen’s primary residence was in San Francisco.
Thoresen was a frequent traveler to Southern California, where Cheri Jo was murdered, starting in 1962.
The handwriting on an envelope linked to the Bates case looks like handwriting in a letter written to an Illinoian whose daughter and daughter's boyfriend were murdered in May, 1969, a time it has been assumed Zodiac was up to no good…somewhere.
Thoresen was a suspect in the murder of Judith Mae Anderson in Chicago in 1957. Anderson’s body was “neatly severed” while being dismembered.
Thoresen had numerous arrests for violent assaults. His wife said he was behind the murders of three people, including his brother whose body was found in Lake Forest, IL five months before Debbie's murder.
Officials have refused to release reports from Valerie and Debbie’s cases.
In Valerie’s case, five years ago, the village of Kenilworth spent a considerable amount of money fighting an FOIA suit a lawyer filed in order to gain access to the case’s files.
Meanwhile, there is no marker on Debbie’s grave.
Winward1
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I’ve seen it said that Thoresen could not have been Zodiac because Thoresen was hot headed, too apt to go off like when he attacked a waiter over nothing whereas Zodiac cooly went about killing.
What these people disregard, or are not aware of is in 1966-67, Thoresen made connections with people who sold him over seventy tons of weapons.
His wife documented the amount of time he spent wooing them as they would not sell machine guns, flame throwers and canons to just anyone.
So it's documented. He could be calm as can be, even would work for months at something when he wanted it badly enough, whether it entailed earning the trust of arms merchants, or killing up to six persons at once. If he came off as that crazy or unpredictable, no one would have sold him a BB gun.
He was only hot headed when it involved things that couldn’t put him on death row.
What these people disregard, or are not aware of is in 1966-67, Thoresen made connections with people who sold him over seventy tons of weapons.
His wife documented the amount of time he spent wooing them as they would not sell machine guns, flame throwers and canons to just anyone.
So it's documented. He could be calm as can be, even would work for months at something when he wanted it badly enough, whether it entailed earning the trust of arms merchants, or killing up to six persons at once. If he came off as that crazy or unpredictable, no one would have sold him a BB gun.
He was only hot headed when it involved things that couldn’t put him on death row.
CaMan60
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Some people seem to be ruined by money and wealth.
With Bill this was true. and this started at a early age to a degree where it was all just a game to him.
It was not a game to the people he hurt.
There are facts in the case that cannot be mere coincidence.
People are making him out to be more clever than he really was.
No doubt he learned to use the phases he used in his letters, when he was still young
surrounded by wealth. Words like , What Shall ,we say i hope your having fun with
solving these clues.
With Bill this was true. and this started at a early age to a degree where it was all just a game to him.
It was not a game to the people he hurt.
There are facts in the case that cannot be mere coincidence.
People are making him out to be more clever than he really was.
No doubt he learned to use the phases he used in his letters, when he was still young
surrounded by wealth. Words like , What Shall ,we say i hope your having fun with
solving these clues.
Winward1
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In his first interview with police, Michael Mageau said Zodiac’s car was “similar to or the same type as” Darlene Ferrin’s brown 1963 Chevy Corvair coupe.
But he would not say the car was a Corvair. He also said the car that arrived a few minutes earlier and pulled up next to Ferrin’s before it’s driver drove off (which may not have been the same car but for obvious reasons can be said with near certainly was the same car) was similar in shape to Ferrin’s car.
William Thoresen owned a red Ferrari 250GT (documents I have imply it was a 1963 or ’64 model year.) Though there’s a world of difference between a 250GT and a ’63 Corvair coupe they do share numerous similarities. Both models:
Mageau was a young guy. He was a Californian. He was from car country.
Corvairs were ubiquitous in the US by 1969. There’s no reason to believe he would not have identified the car and been certain of it had it been a Corvair, or one of a dozen other common cars at that time (like the Mustang used to recreate the Blue Rock Springs Park scene in the film ZODIAC) by their taillights alone.
Though Thoresen’s Ferrari shared numerous similarities with Corvairs (especially its rear) it was different and rare. 250GTs were not mass produced. There were no more than a few hundred made of certain versions and as few as 75 of one. This is why Mageau could not name the make, let alone model, of the car.
Zodiac disputed Mageau’s claim that he (Zodiac) sped from the scene. Instead, he wrote that he drove away slowly because he did not want to attract attention. You wouldn’t either if you had just committed first degree murder and were leaving a quiet, secluded area in a 250GT.
This doesn’t mean Thoresen did not rev the engine. But even if he didn’t, it’s why Mageau recalled Zodiac sped away. Moments earlier he was close enough to the car (the vast majority of which were equipped with V12 racing engines) to sense its power. Even in the dark he had good reason to believe it was no Ford or Chevy.
It is a fair bet Mageau may not have seen one before. But most important, ’63 and later 250GTs have taillights that are similar to a Corvair’s, but the Ferrari only has half as many. This, along with the size, low profile and all that power is why Mageau could not say it was a Corvair.
Both Ferrin’s and Thoresen’s cars had round, similarly sized taillights (’63 and later 250GTs have two taillights. Earlier models have four. However they are mounted vertically rather than horizontally like a Corvair’s.) Mageau said Zodiac’s car had California plates. Thoresen’s primary residence was in San Francisco.
So coupes, similarly sized, round taillights (though different in number or alignment), low profiles, a color consistent with red, similar-looking bumpers, V-12 engine, CA plates, Mageau could not name the make or model…that’s NINE reasons to believe the car he saw was Thoresen’s.
On a related note, police investigating the murder of Valerie Percy linked that crime to an attempted burglary that occurred a mile from Percy’s house the year before she was slain. An employee of a security firm saw the suspect flee in a red sports car. However, like Mageau, the witness was unable to name the make or model of the car.
The suspect was interrupted while in the process of trying to steal guns. Thoresen was a thief and a gun hoarder. Of course, he not only owned a red sports car, it was a rare one.
You may remember a Humble Oil employee saw a car parked near David Faraday’s Rambler at the turnout at Lake Herman Road. The witness provided a good description of Faraday’s vehicle but, like Mageau and the witness who saw the car linked to Percy’s murder, he was unable to name the make or model of the second vehicle.
You may also recall, between the Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs attacks, high schoolers Mike Morrison and Debbie Means were slain in Illinois (Thoresen and Percy’s home state) in a case that bears numerous, unusual similarities Zodiac cases proven and suspected.
A feature story on the Morrison-Means case that appeared in the fall of 1969 documents a dark colored sports-type that car was seen near the murder scene. I interviewed a family member of one of the victims. The two witnesses who saw the car were friends of Morrison and Means and told police the car was closely following Morrison’s car minutes before he and his girlfriend were murdered. Yet again, the witnesses could not name the make or model of the car.
That’s four unsolved cases that feature numerous unique similarities and are linked to vehicles (all described as sports cars, three of which were red or described to be consistent with red under the lighting conditions witnesses saw them in) no one could name the make let alone model of. This is not a coincidence. It’s because the car was Thoresen’s Ferrari.
Now, if you're beginning to think it's not a coincidence that this case seems to be the only one with an incessant churn of obviously bad suspects matched with an endless supply of equally inane threads, wherever the web will allow, such as "Zodiac - a two man job?" you're onto something.
’63 Corvair coupe and '63 Ferrari 250GT
But he would not say the car was a Corvair. He also said the car that arrived a few minutes earlier and pulled up next to Ferrin’s before it’s driver drove off (which may not have been the same car but for obvious reasons can be said with near certainly was the same car) was similar in shape to Ferrin’s car.
William Thoresen owned a red Ferrari 250GT (documents I have imply it was a 1963 or ’64 model year.) Though there’s a world of difference between a 250GT and a ’63 Corvair coupe they do share numerous similarities. Both models:
- have low (sports car type) profiles
- are coupes
- have round taillights
- are smaller than most cars (circa 1969) in the US
Mageau was a young guy. He was a Californian. He was from car country.
Corvairs were ubiquitous in the US by 1969. There’s no reason to believe he would not have identified the car and been certain of it had it been a Corvair, or one of a dozen other common cars at that time (like the Mustang used to recreate the Blue Rock Springs Park scene in the film ZODIAC) by their taillights alone.
Though Thoresen’s Ferrari shared numerous similarities with Corvairs (especially its rear) it was different and rare. 250GTs were not mass produced. There were no more than a few hundred made of certain versions and as few as 75 of one. This is why Mageau could not name the make, let alone model, of the car.
Zodiac disputed Mageau’s claim that he (Zodiac) sped from the scene. Instead, he wrote that he drove away slowly because he did not want to attract attention. You wouldn’t either if you had just committed first degree murder and were leaving a quiet, secluded area in a 250GT.
This doesn’t mean Thoresen did not rev the engine. But even if he didn’t, it’s why Mageau recalled Zodiac sped away. Moments earlier he was close enough to the car (the vast majority of which were equipped with V12 racing engines) to sense its power. Even in the dark he had good reason to believe it was no Ford or Chevy.
It is a fair bet Mageau may not have seen one before. But most important, ’63 and later 250GTs have taillights that are similar to a Corvair’s, but the Ferrari only has half as many. This, along with the size, low profile and all that power is why Mageau could not say it was a Corvair.
Both Ferrin’s and Thoresen’s cars had round, similarly sized taillights (’63 and later 250GTs have two taillights. Earlier models have four. However they are mounted vertically rather than horizontally like a Corvair’s.) Mageau said Zodiac’s car had California plates. Thoresen’s primary residence was in San Francisco.
So coupes, similarly sized, round taillights (though different in number or alignment), low profiles, a color consistent with red, similar-looking bumpers, V-12 engine, CA plates, Mageau could not name the make or model…that’s NINE reasons to believe the car he saw was Thoresen’s.
On a related note, police investigating the murder of Valerie Percy linked that crime to an attempted burglary that occurred a mile from Percy’s house the year before she was slain. An employee of a security firm saw the suspect flee in a red sports car. However, like Mageau, the witness was unable to name the make or model of the car.
The suspect was interrupted while in the process of trying to steal guns. Thoresen was a thief and a gun hoarder. Of course, he not only owned a red sports car, it was a rare one.
You may remember a Humble Oil employee saw a car parked near David Faraday’s Rambler at the turnout at Lake Herman Road. The witness provided a good description of Faraday’s vehicle but, like Mageau and the witness who saw the car linked to Percy’s murder, he was unable to name the make or model of the second vehicle.
You may also recall, between the Lake Herman Road and Blue Rock Springs attacks, high schoolers Mike Morrison and Debbie Means were slain in Illinois (Thoresen and Percy’s home state) in a case that bears numerous, unusual similarities Zodiac cases proven and suspected.
A feature story on the Morrison-Means case that appeared in the fall of 1969 documents a dark colored sports-type that car was seen near the murder scene. I interviewed a family member of one of the victims. The two witnesses who saw the car were friends of Morrison and Means and told police the car was closely following Morrison’s car minutes before he and his girlfriend were murdered. Yet again, the witnesses could not name the make or model of the car.
That’s four unsolved cases that feature numerous unique similarities and are linked to vehicles (all described as sports cars, three of which were red or described to be consistent with red under the lighting conditions witnesses saw them in) no one could name the make let alone model of. This is not a coincidence. It’s because the car was Thoresen’s Ferrari.
Now, if you're beginning to think it's not a coincidence that this case seems to be the only one with an incessant churn of obviously bad suspects matched with an endless supply of equally inane threads, wherever the web will allow, such as "Zodiac - a two man job?" you're onto something.
’63 Corvair coupe and '63 Ferrari 250GT
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ophion1031
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Hi, Glenn. I have stated my reasons why I think Thoresen was not the Zodiac, but I do think it's possible that he knew the killer, and maybe even played a small role in the Paul Stine murder.
I am convinced that Thoresen did murder Valerie Percy, though. And Dale Stoddard. He may have killed Judith Andersen as well.
I was going to post a few pieces of information that you may not know, or I have not seen you post anyways, but work just got a little busy and I am running on no sleep so I completely spaced what I was going to post. Total brain fart.
I am convinced that Thoresen did murder Valerie Percy, though. And Dale Stoddard. He may have killed Judith Andersen as well.
I was going to post a few pieces of information that you may not know, or I have not seen you post anyways, but work just got a little busy and I am running on no sleep so I completely spaced what I was going to post. Total brain fart.
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ophion1031
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Wait... I remember a couple of things now.
1. A deposit for $10,000 was put into Thoresen's bank account a couple days before Valerie's murder. Perhaps someone paid Thoresen to kill Valerie. I doubt it, but it is possible.
2. "As the investigation continued there was a flurry of excitement when an 18-year-old Arizona youth told police in Tucson that he had been paid $75 by a stranger "to kill anyone in the Percy home." The youth later admitted he had made the story up." We know Thoresen liked to pay people to do his dirty work, and there were several times he offered people to commit crimes for him and they fell through for various reasons. My thoughts are that Thoresen had some sort of grudge against the Percy family and had originally wanted to pay this kid to kill them, then changing his mind and deciding to do it himself. And of course the kid would not testify. Just like in the Thoresen dynamite case, the witness got scared and didn't say anything.
3. Thoresen was not only a psychopath, but he was also very greedy. A lot of his crimes and/or plots had to do with money. Hell, he had his own brother killed so he could inherit his money. FBI files reveal that Thoresen owed a lot of money to architect George Livermore, who he had hired to remodel his mansion at 2801 Broadway. Thoresen refused to pay Livermore the money he owed him ($10,000 if I'm not mistaken). The interesting thing is that Livermore lived on Cherry St., very close to the corner of Washington, where Paul Stine was murdered. The problem, though, is that Livermore was no longer living there at the time of the Stine murder. But Thoresen may not have known that Livermore had moved out of that neighborhood. What if the Stine murder was a way of sending Livermore a message or warning? Perhaps Thoresen paid Zodiac to kill a cabbie at that particular corner? That is probably far fetched, but with all we know about Bill, it is certainly possible.
1. A deposit for $10,000 was put into Thoresen's bank account a couple days before Valerie's murder. Perhaps someone paid Thoresen to kill Valerie. I doubt it, but it is possible.
2. "As the investigation continued there was a flurry of excitement when an 18-year-old Arizona youth told police in Tucson that he had been paid $75 by a stranger "to kill anyone in the Percy home." The youth later admitted he had made the story up." We know Thoresen liked to pay people to do his dirty work, and there were several times he offered people to commit crimes for him and they fell through for various reasons. My thoughts are that Thoresen had some sort of grudge against the Percy family and had originally wanted to pay this kid to kill them, then changing his mind and deciding to do it himself. And of course the kid would not testify. Just like in the Thoresen dynamite case, the witness got scared and didn't say anything.
3. Thoresen was not only a psychopath, but he was also very greedy. A lot of his crimes and/or plots had to do with money. Hell, he had his own brother killed so he could inherit his money. FBI files reveal that Thoresen owed a lot of money to architect George Livermore, who he had hired to remodel his mansion at 2801 Broadway. Thoresen refused to pay Livermore the money he owed him ($10,000 if I'm not mistaken). The interesting thing is that Livermore lived on Cherry St., very close to the corner of Washington, where Paul Stine was murdered. The problem, though, is that Livermore was no longer living there at the time of the Stine murder. But Thoresen may not have known that Livermore had moved out of that neighborhood. What if the Stine murder was a way of sending Livermore a message or warning? Perhaps Thoresen paid Zodiac to kill a cabbie at that particular corner? That is probably far fetched, but with all we know about Bill, it is certainly possible.
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ophion1031
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Glenn, have you considered reaching out to Thoresen's old green beret friend, Joe Hinojosa? Louise stayed with Joe for a short time after one of the times that Bill severely beat her. Bill paid a hitman to kill Hinojosa, thinking that he and Louise were sleeping together, but he called off the hitman at the last minute, thinking the murder could be traced back to him.
I would bet that Hinojosa has a lot of useful information of Bill and Louise, but who knows if he would be willing to talk. I am pretty sure he is still alive. I had a phone number for him at one point, but can't seem to locate it now.
Also, Bill had TWO addresses listed in the '60-'70 San Fran. directory. His mansion on Broadway, of course, and also an apartment at 1651 Larkin St., where he was listed as the apartment manager. I compiled a list of everyone else living there at the time, and even reached out to one of the tenants, a man who just happened to be a reporter for the S.F. Chronicle. He claims that he does not remember Thoresen and does not believe that he ever met him. Why would Bill have an apartment when he has a nice mansion? Is this where he would bring women that he was sleeping with? I can see if I can track down other people that were living in the small apartment building and try to make contact.
UPDATE: I sent Hinojosa's contact info to your in a PM on my website just in case you want to contact him. If not, I would be happy to give it a try.
I would bet that Hinojosa has a lot of useful information of Bill and Louise, but who knows if he would be willing to talk. I am pretty sure he is still alive. I had a phone number for him at one point, but can't seem to locate it now.
Also, Bill had TWO addresses listed in the '60-'70 San Fran. directory. His mansion on Broadway, of course, and also an apartment at 1651 Larkin St., where he was listed as the apartment manager. I compiled a list of everyone else living there at the time, and even reached out to one of the tenants, a man who just happened to be a reporter for the S.F. Chronicle. He claims that he does not remember Thoresen and does not believe that he ever met him. Why would Bill have an apartment when he has a nice mansion? Is this where he would bring women that he was sleeping with? I can see if I can track down other people that were living in the small apartment building and try to make contact.
UPDATE: I sent Hinojosa's contact info to your in a PM on my website just in case you want to contact him. If not, I would be happy to give it a try.
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Winward1
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I’ve not heard anything about Thoresen receiving a $10,000 check, ever (though I’m sure he received many checks far in excess of that. His family were near billionaires when their net worth is adjusted for inflation.) What’s the source for this? The only instances I’ve seen it documented that he offered others money was to kill were his wife.
Otherwise, he fits the physical description of the killer Valerie’s stepmom saw. So I doubt it was some kid from AZ. I spent years interviewing the cops who led her murder investigation. Despite a worldwide search, and initial suspicion that it might have been politically motivated, they could find no one who wanted to hurt anyone in the Percy family.
Of the three people his wife testified that he murdered (Hinjose was one of them. So he would be no good as a source now) only the brother could be said to have been motivated by money.
Since Livermore did not live near the corner of Washington and Cherry at the time of the Stine murder, all I see regarding that is an interesting bit of trivia. But good work turning it up, also on the apartment. However, he had a place in S.F. before he bought there, probably at least as early as ’64. The wife documented that. He was flush with cash in those days so I doubt he was managing the building, which might explain why the tenant could not remember him.
My latest release has him down for 47 murders. Almost all of them, for the victims, were wrong place, wrong time. I can’t recall the details of them all off of the top of my head but I can’t recall another (other than Richard) that was over money. He killed Stoddard while in a rage over Stoddard bugging him for more money and other things, according to the wife. I get the feeling he killed Stoddard because Stoddard knew too much. That’s why she said he killed Hinajose.
I interviewed a lifelong acquaintance of his. The gist of it is in the latest release and alone is worth the price of admission—then there’s in depth information on the coverup.
Otherwise, he fits the physical description of the killer Valerie’s stepmom saw. So I doubt it was some kid from AZ. I spent years interviewing the cops who led her murder investigation. Despite a worldwide search, and initial suspicion that it might have been politically motivated, they could find no one who wanted to hurt anyone in the Percy family.
Of the three people his wife testified that he murdered (Hinjose was one of them. So he would be no good as a source now) only the brother could be said to have been motivated by money.
Since Livermore did not live near the corner of Washington and Cherry at the time of the Stine murder, all I see regarding that is an interesting bit of trivia. But good work turning it up, also on the apartment. However, he had a place in S.F. before he bought there, probably at least as early as ’64. The wife documented that. He was flush with cash in those days so I doubt he was managing the building, which might explain why the tenant could not remember him.
My latest release has him down for 47 murders. Almost all of them, for the victims, were wrong place, wrong time. I can’t recall the details of them all off of the top of my head but I can’t recall another (other than Richard) that was over money. He killed Stoddard while in a rage over Stoddard bugging him for more money and other things, according to the wife. I get the feeling he killed Stoddard because Stoddard knew too much. That’s why she said he killed Hinajose.
I interviewed a lifelong acquaintance of his. The gist of it is in the latest release and alone is worth the price of admission—then there’s in depth information on the coverup.
Winward1
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I was communicating with a true crime writer not long ago when the subject of the Hautz letter came up.
While we were discussing this, he apparently thought I said something that was a bit too dismissive about Michael Butterfield. This was not my intention. However, the writer then cited Butterfield’s two decades (or whatever) of involvement with the Zodiac case.
I replied that Butterfield has a story on his site about the letter in question. In it he claims to have located Hautz, who otherwise and for good reasons was suspected to be a killer masquerading as a college student. The suspicion apparently was not held by just anyone but (at least one) crime reporter.
Elsewhere, I asked a Zodiac researcher why he had not written anything about the Hautz letter. He said because he thought Butterfield debunked it.
On his site, Butterfield displays writing samples purportedly written by his source (who he claims was Patricia Hautz, a Southern Californian in the 1960s.) But he warns people not to try to locate her.
Regarding this, I told the writer mentioned above, that I connected a letter that surfaced last spring to the Hautz letter. And there’s no doubt it was written by a killer who murdered two teenagers (Mike Morrison and Debbie Means) in Zodiac-like fashion in 1969.
And that I obtained a document that contains the signature of a violent, arms hoarding and well travelled suspect who is believed to have murdered at least three people. It, too, resembles the writing on the Hautz envelope (not to mention aspects of the hand-written characters in Zodiac letters.)
No less important, I have published the names of the sources for these documents. So I asked the writer, who has more credibility, me or Butterfield? He did not answer.
Meanwhile, the researcher who said that he thought Butterfield debunked the Hautz letter (on the basis of documents no one can verify) has, going on a year now now, ignored the documents that I’ve brought to light.
In the meantime, he seems to be writing about every other female US murder victim for which there’s an unsolved case, circa 1960-80, on his “Zodiac” site.
While we were discussing this, he apparently thought I said something that was a bit too dismissive about Michael Butterfield. This was not my intention. However, the writer then cited Butterfield’s two decades (or whatever) of involvement with the Zodiac case.
I replied that Butterfield has a story on his site about the letter in question. In it he claims to have located Hautz, who otherwise and for good reasons was suspected to be a killer masquerading as a college student. The suspicion apparently was not held by just anyone but (at least one) crime reporter.
Elsewhere, I asked a Zodiac researcher why he had not written anything about the Hautz letter. He said because he thought Butterfield debunked it.
On his site, Butterfield displays writing samples purportedly written by his source (who he claims was Patricia Hautz, a Southern Californian in the 1960s.) But he warns people not to try to locate her.
Regarding this, I told the writer mentioned above, that I connected a letter that surfaced last spring to the Hautz letter. And there’s no doubt it was written by a killer who murdered two teenagers (Mike Morrison and Debbie Means) in Zodiac-like fashion in 1969.
And that I obtained a document that contains the signature of a violent, arms hoarding and well travelled suspect who is believed to have murdered at least three people. It, too, resembles the writing on the Hautz envelope (not to mention aspects of the hand-written characters in Zodiac letters.)
No less important, I have published the names of the sources for these documents. So I asked the writer, who has more credibility, me or Butterfield? He did not answer.
Meanwhile, the researcher who said that he thought Butterfield debunked the Hautz letter (on the basis of documents no one can verify) has, going on a year now now, ignored the documents that I’ve brought to light.
In the meantime, he seems to be writing about every other female US murder victim for which there’s an unsolved case, circa 1960-80, on his “Zodiac” site.
CaMan60
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Going Forward
When reading through this book Zodiac Maniac a few facts really standout. In the days before DNA testing . the investigation was done by other means. And this evidence is matching with Zodiac. He had previous run in,s with the police. He Thought he Knew what he was Doing. So that the crime could be blamed on him as Zodiac, but still not be Arrested. Even after calling police to Report.
Zodiac was using army gear, like the guns and acting like a soldier in training. on defenseless people.
Zodiac wrote letters in his own handwriting. Do we have investigators Here on this Site, willing to take a closer look at his signature and the Mad Cap letters and envelopes? No doubt on this site there are some people who are serious about this, person of interest.
When reading through this book Zodiac Maniac a few facts really standout. In the days before DNA testing . the investigation was done by other means. And this evidence is matching with Zodiac. He had previous run in,s with the police. He Thought he Knew what he was Doing. So that the crime could be blamed on him as Zodiac, but still not be Arrested. Even after calling police to Report.
Zodiac was using army gear, like the guns and acting like a soldier in training. on defenseless people.
Zodiac wrote letters in his own handwriting. Do we have investigators Here on this Site, willing to take a closer look at his signature and the Mad Cap letters and envelopes? No doubt on this site there are some people who are serious about this, person of interest.
Winward1
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To anyone wondering whether Thoresen was Zodiac, and the feds have known and been covering it up for a half century (with things like bogus mailings, firings, rejected FOIA requests and television propaganda), consider this segment on the case.
Count the number of inaccuracies in it, then consider that its primary source was a member of the FBI.
Then consider the line “he never intended to kill those kids.” This is those who know better pretending they don’t know, prior to becoming Zodiac, he slaughtered the children of the Boles, Robison and Arellano families (that’s eight or nine kids there) and stabbed a four-year-old girl to death in Ohio. (Indeed, he covered a lot of ground. CA, MI, FL, TX and OH, to name but a few. Who’d have guessed a guy who bought a Ferrari liked to drive?)
At the end, when the question is asked if Zodiac is still alive how did Zodiac overcome the urge to kill?, consider the answer. “I’ve seen cases where.…” He’s implying that Zodiac was still alive. But consider what profilers say about people who’re lying. How they look away and blink their eyes because they know they’re bulls*@#&ing.
So why is this so inaccurate? Why does this made-for-TV Zodiac display the knife (rather than his gun) to Hartnell character? And when he does, why is it so unlike a bayonet when Cecelia Shepard’s pathologist wrote that the knife most certainly was a bayonet? Once again, I don’t think these are coincidences.
Count the number of inaccuracies in it, then consider that its primary source was a member of the FBI.
Then consider the line “he never intended to kill those kids.” This is those who know better pretending they don’t know, prior to becoming Zodiac, he slaughtered the children of the Boles, Robison and Arellano families (that’s eight or nine kids there) and stabbed a four-year-old girl to death in Ohio. (Indeed, he covered a lot of ground. CA, MI, FL, TX and OH, to name but a few. Who’d have guessed a guy who bought a Ferrari liked to drive?)
At the end, when the question is asked if Zodiac is still alive how did Zodiac overcome the urge to kill?, consider the answer. “I’ve seen cases where.…” He’s implying that Zodiac was still alive. But consider what profilers say about people who’re lying. How they look away and blink their eyes because they know they’re bulls*@#&ing.
So why is this so inaccurate? Why does this made-for-TV Zodiac display the knife (rather than his gun) to Hartnell character? And when he does, why is it so unlike a bayonet when Cecelia Shepard’s pathologist wrote that the knife most certainly was a bayonet? Once again, I don’t think these are coincidences.
Winward1
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The first rule of propaganda, start with a few truths before you segway into the land of utter bulls@#t.
Take the following example, produced and manufactured in Canada regarding the case of Reet Jurvetson, whom William Thoresen killed, the evidence of which I have documented in Zodiac Maniac. With this in mind, also remember Thoresen was Zodiac and murdered upwards of 50 people, none of whose cases have been solved since modern DNA sequencing came into being.
Note how it starts with people there’s no doubt actually knew Jurvetson, then mentions Manson, whose possible involvement was “a nagging question.” Yes, it’s always a nagging question when the MO is not the least bit like anything the Manson Family (perhaps the most investigated group of criminals in history) did.
Then it’s onto a POI named “Jean.” Though no one apparently knew Jean well enough to know his last name. There’s not a single photograph of him provided. In other words, there’s no evidence that the POI existed.
Another source for this story is called “a mutual friend,” of Jurvetson’s and another source. But nothing whatsoever is provided regarding who this source was. What, 50 years later, could possibly prevent anyone from mentioning this person’s name, or at least something about them at this point?
Then note how different the POI was from Thoresen. Thoresen had relatively short hair. The “mysterious” POI, meanwhile, sounds like a Jim Morrison Vegas impersonator.
Then we’re told “…there’s only one other person that might have seen or known who this [POI] is.” Well, who might that be? “Paul Robert.” Yes! A source in a story that reeks of B.S. who has two first names. What do you know about him? “He’s an artist in the Montreal area.” Sounds like a B.S. artist. Oh, the cops couldn’t find him but some cheesy TV newsmagazine could? Sounds like the cops don’t really want to investigate this case.
So we meet the artist, Paul Robert. But there’s nothing to prove he ever knew the POI. Not a document. Not a photo. You know, the POI there’s no proof ever existed and no one knew his last name.
So we end up with a forensic artist who draws a picture of the POI. One has to wonder, why would anyone waste time producing such a baseless story? Maybe it’s because they know the case, and dozens like it, are unsolvable because they have long known who the murderer was. They know he's dead and if it got out that it was covered up it would make them look really bad.
When you're in LA, keep a lookout for Jean. I heard he became a plumber. And if you're in Canada, say hello to Paul Robert for me):
Take the following example, produced and manufactured in Canada regarding the case of Reet Jurvetson, whom William Thoresen killed, the evidence of which I have documented in Zodiac Maniac. With this in mind, also remember Thoresen was Zodiac and murdered upwards of 50 people, none of whose cases have been solved since modern DNA sequencing came into being.
Note how it starts with people there’s no doubt actually knew Jurvetson, then mentions Manson, whose possible involvement was “a nagging question.” Yes, it’s always a nagging question when the MO is not the least bit like anything the Manson Family (perhaps the most investigated group of criminals in history) did.
Then it’s onto a POI named “Jean.” Though no one apparently knew Jean well enough to know his last name. There’s not a single photograph of him provided. In other words, there’s no evidence that the POI existed.
Another source for this story is called “a mutual friend,” of Jurvetson’s and another source. But nothing whatsoever is provided regarding who this source was. What, 50 years later, could possibly prevent anyone from mentioning this person’s name, or at least something about them at this point?
Then note how different the POI was from Thoresen. Thoresen had relatively short hair. The “mysterious” POI, meanwhile, sounds like a Jim Morrison Vegas impersonator.
Then we’re told “…there’s only one other person that might have seen or known who this [POI] is.” Well, who might that be? “Paul Robert.” Yes! A source in a story that reeks of B.S. who has two first names. What do you know about him? “He’s an artist in the Montreal area.” Sounds like a B.S. artist. Oh, the cops couldn’t find him but some cheesy TV newsmagazine could? Sounds like the cops don’t really want to investigate this case.
So we meet the artist, Paul Robert. But there’s nothing to prove he ever knew the POI. Not a document. Not a photo. You know, the POI there’s no proof ever existed and no one knew his last name.
So we end up with a forensic artist who draws a picture of the POI. One has to wonder, why would anyone waste time producing such a baseless story? Maybe it’s because they know the case, and dozens like it, are unsolvable because they have long known who the murderer was. They know he's dead and if it got out that it was covered up it would make them look really bad.
When you're in LA, keep a lookout for Jean. I heard he became a plumber. And if you're in Canada, say hello to Paul Robert for me):
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Winward1
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You may recall I tied Zodiac/Thoresen to Illinois, where he murdered Valerie Percy, Mike Morrison and Debbie Means. And orchestrated the murder of his brother who was killed there.
As for what follows it may seem like I'm digressing but you’ll see where this is going. Telltale signs of Thoresen’s presence in the Midwest, and indications there’s an ongoing coverup of his crimes caused me to look around the region.
You may recall I argued, in my latest book, that the murders of the Robison family, near Good Hart, Michigan, in 1968 was him. (This should come as no surprise. Others suspected Zodiac for it. But I was able to do it more persuasively as can be done when one has the right suspect and documents.)
So I took a look at the Michigan Murders case. I had read about it years ago but this time was different. The first thing I saw was a mugshot of John Norman Collins. You may know he is in prison—in large part because witnesses identified him as the man seen with a number of victims. A big part of what convicted him, though, was a witness who said he was the suspect she saw on a motorcycle he was riding around with Karen Beineman, the final victim.
But Collins had no prior record and, if I recall correctly, has denied killing anyone, ever. And they only tried him for one case which shows how weak their case was. Compare this with Thoresen’s record.
More important and what was obvious is in the mugshot Collins, in 1969, looks to be about six one—the same height as Thoresen. He also had an athletic build, like Thoresen. And dark hair, like Thoresen. And at least sometimes he parted it on the left side, like Thoresen. What’s more, Thoresen liked motorcycles. I know because I have some of his records. And because there’s a photo of him on one of his bikes in his wife’s book.
There was also another witness who saw the Michigan Murders suspect. She worked in a funeral home and said the guy was a young, good looking, dark haired white guy. Thoresen was 29 at that time. But he was fit and had that somewhat round face the Lake Berryessa witnesses mentioned. Nothing against Collins but, like the young women who saw him at Lake Berryessa said, Thoresen was a good-looking guy, better looking than Collins.
You may recall he had a red Ferrari. I also know, via a source who knew him, that he rented cars often when he came back to the Midwest. He also had a lot of money. So it would come as no surprise if he owned, and drove, other cars.
I knew that long suspected Michigan Murders victim, Jane Mixer, was slain in March, 1969, after posting her information to her college’s ride-sharing board. People who have studied the case are aware that Sheila Collins, an Iowa State Student, was murdered under eerily similar circumstances in January, 1968. This has intrigued those who have studied both cases as they can’t place John Norman Collins in Iowa.
There’s a simple reason for this. It’s because he didn’t kill Sheila Collins, Thoresen did. And John Norman Collins wasn’t the Michigan Murderer, Thoresen was. That’s right. Thoresen was the Michigan Murderer and Zodiac. You wonder why there’s a coverup?
The first Michigan Murders victim, Mary Fleszar, was seen talking with a man who was in what was described a blue-gray Chevy. The three female witnesses at Lake Berryessa said their suspect (who as described sounds exactly like Thoresen) was driving a silver blue Chevy. I’ve also seen it written that, when last seen alive, Sheila Collins was getting into a blue car.
A Chevy seems like a good car for a rich guy with a kid to be driving when the Ferrari wasn't convenient. And he wouldn’t want to be murdering people while out in the Ferrari unless it was night, as he did. During the day a common vehicle—a Chevy—was ideal.
Some of you may recall another reason it’s thought Collins was the Michigan Murderer is because the murders stopped once he was arrested. But it wasn’t because Collins was in jail. It was because Thoresen was elsewhere—as one would expect, killing.
Less than a month after Collins was arraigned, Thoresen was stabbing the Lake Berryessa victims. Then he had to write more letters. Getting the hood together and playing Zodiac was taking up a lot of time. He paid attention to what was going on regarding his crimes elsewhere. It’s a fair bet he knew Collins had been arrested.
Of course, you may already have realized that he didn't send the first Zodiac letter until the end of July, 1969, because up until then he was too busy murdering in Michigan.
You want to know what he was up to after he killed Stine and before he abducted Johns? Read Zodiac Maniac. You will be glad you did.
Then there’s Gary Leiterman. He was convicted in (2005?) of killing Mixer. That case had some very sketchy aspects to DNA, which is the only thing that convicted him. After possibly being railroaded, Leiterman, sadly, died in jail. Like Collins, he didn’t seem like a likely suspect and it sounds like they dragged his name through the mud.
Was it because Mixer’s case was so similar to that of Sheila Collins? Was it part of the coverup? Would those in the US justice system stoop that low—to knowingly convict an innocent guy for the sole reason of continuing a coverup? As one of the central figures in Watergate said “I fear the worst.”
Back to Collins. His case sounds like a textbook example of overzealous prosecution along with a serious dose of mistaken identity, though it's understandable the pressure was on for an arrest. That said someone call the guy a lawyer. He has a hell of a case.
As for what follows it may seem like I'm digressing but you’ll see where this is going. Telltale signs of Thoresen’s presence in the Midwest, and indications there’s an ongoing coverup of his crimes caused me to look around the region.
You may recall I argued, in my latest book, that the murders of the Robison family, near Good Hart, Michigan, in 1968 was him. (This should come as no surprise. Others suspected Zodiac for it. But I was able to do it more persuasively as can be done when one has the right suspect and documents.)
So I took a look at the Michigan Murders case. I had read about it years ago but this time was different. The first thing I saw was a mugshot of John Norman Collins. You may know he is in prison—in large part because witnesses identified him as the man seen with a number of victims. A big part of what convicted him, though, was a witness who said he was the suspect she saw on a motorcycle he was riding around with Karen Beineman, the final victim.
But Collins had no prior record and, if I recall correctly, has denied killing anyone, ever. And they only tried him for one case which shows how weak their case was. Compare this with Thoresen’s record.
More important and what was obvious is in the mugshot Collins, in 1969, looks to be about six one—the same height as Thoresen. He also had an athletic build, like Thoresen. And dark hair, like Thoresen. And at least sometimes he parted it on the left side, like Thoresen. What’s more, Thoresen liked motorcycles. I know because I have some of his records. And because there’s a photo of him on one of his bikes in his wife’s book.
There was also another witness who saw the Michigan Murders suspect. She worked in a funeral home and said the guy was a young, good looking, dark haired white guy. Thoresen was 29 at that time. But he was fit and had that somewhat round face the Lake Berryessa witnesses mentioned. Nothing against Collins but, like the young women who saw him at Lake Berryessa said, Thoresen was a good-looking guy, better looking than Collins.
You may recall he had a red Ferrari. I also know, via a source who knew him, that he rented cars often when he came back to the Midwest. He also had a lot of money. So it would come as no surprise if he owned, and drove, other cars.
I knew that long suspected Michigan Murders victim, Jane Mixer, was slain in March, 1969, after posting her information to her college’s ride-sharing board. People who have studied the case are aware that Sheila Collins, an Iowa State Student, was murdered under eerily similar circumstances in January, 1968. This has intrigued those who have studied both cases as they can’t place John Norman Collins in Iowa.
There’s a simple reason for this. It’s because he didn’t kill Sheila Collins, Thoresen did. And John Norman Collins wasn’t the Michigan Murderer, Thoresen was. That’s right. Thoresen was the Michigan Murderer and Zodiac. You wonder why there’s a coverup?
The first Michigan Murders victim, Mary Fleszar, was seen talking with a man who was in what was described a blue-gray Chevy. The three female witnesses at Lake Berryessa said their suspect (who as described sounds exactly like Thoresen) was driving a silver blue Chevy. I’ve also seen it written that, when last seen alive, Sheila Collins was getting into a blue car.
A Chevy seems like a good car for a rich guy with a kid to be driving when the Ferrari wasn't convenient. And he wouldn’t want to be murdering people while out in the Ferrari unless it was night, as he did. During the day a common vehicle—a Chevy—was ideal.
Some of you may recall another reason it’s thought Collins was the Michigan Murderer is because the murders stopped once he was arrested. But it wasn’t because Collins was in jail. It was because Thoresen was elsewhere—as one would expect, killing.
Less than a month after Collins was arraigned, Thoresen was stabbing the Lake Berryessa victims. Then he had to write more letters. Getting the hood together and playing Zodiac was taking up a lot of time. He paid attention to what was going on regarding his crimes elsewhere. It’s a fair bet he knew Collins had been arrested.
Of course, you may already have realized that he didn't send the first Zodiac letter until the end of July, 1969, because up until then he was too busy murdering in Michigan.
You want to know what he was up to after he killed Stine and before he abducted Johns? Read Zodiac Maniac. You will be glad you did.
Then there’s Gary Leiterman. He was convicted in (2005?) of killing Mixer. That case had some very sketchy aspects to DNA, which is the only thing that convicted him. After possibly being railroaded, Leiterman, sadly, died in jail. Like Collins, he didn’t seem like a likely suspect and it sounds like they dragged his name through the mud.
Was it because Mixer’s case was so similar to that of Sheila Collins? Was it part of the coverup? Would those in the US justice system stoop that low—to knowingly convict an innocent guy for the sole reason of continuing a coverup? As one of the central figures in Watergate said “I fear the worst.”
Back to Collins. His case sounds like a textbook example of overzealous prosecution along with a serious dose of mistaken identity, though it's understandable the pressure was on for an arrest. That said someone call the guy a lawyer. He has a hell of a case.
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Winward1
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There seems to be no shortage of b.s. in both official and media accounts of Zodiac cases confirmed and suspected. To this I add another. It concerns the case of Michigan Murders victim Karen Beineman.
You already know there are numerous reasons to believe it was William Thoresen, not John Norman Collins, who was the so-called Michigan Murderer (and Zodiac.) According to news stories on the Beineman case, a witness, Mrs. Joan Goshe, originally told police that she believed the motorcycle on which the suspected murderer of Beineman was seen was a Honda 350.
This is interesting as Thoresen’s wife’s book contains this photo of him sitting on his motorcycle. The picture was taken in 1969, the same year as Beineman’s slaying. Wouldn’t you know it, Thoresen's motorcycle was none other than a Honda 350.
With this in mind, consider these two paragraphs from the Michigan Daily’s coverage of Collins’ trial: "On cross examination, Mrs. Goshe admitted that she had lied twice under oath, once in the filing of a marriage license and once at an earlier hearing of the Collins case.
Under sharp questioning by assistant defense counsel Neil Fink she was forced into contradicting a large number of her earlier statements, particularly in regard to the size of Collin’s motorcycle and her relationships with the press and the police.
She told the police that the motorcycle she had seen Collins riding, ‘was like a Honda 320 or 350.’ She attempted to deny this in yesterday’s cross examination. Collins in fact was riding a Triumph Bonneville 650, a motorcycle which bears little resemblance to a Honda 350.”
I don’t know about you, but this appears to be two examples of proof that Thoresen was the Michigan murderer and the prosecution was so eager to convict Collins that they asked at least one witness to commit perjury.
Yet, though it's record, none of this apparently has apparently made it into long form accounts of the case. This witness, who during the trial “was forced into contradicting a large number of her earlier statements” is still cited as a credible witness—including regarding what motorcycle it was the suspect (who she said was Collins) was sitting on.
Wikipedia cites accounts that say Goshe was mistaken. It was a Triumph, not a Honda. But there’s no way this can be accurate and it sounds to me like Goshe lied numerous times, including about what she originally said. Then you have documentation that Thoresen owned a Honda 350 that year. Or course, none of this would make anyone suspecting there was, and continues to be (see Wikipedia) a coverup regarding Thoresen any more confident in the government’s case against Collins.
You already know there are numerous reasons to believe it was William Thoresen, not John Norman Collins, who was the so-called Michigan Murderer (and Zodiac.) According to news stories on the Beineman case, a witness, Mrs. Joan Goshe, originally told police that she believed the motorcycle on which the suspected murderer of Beineman was seen was a Honda 350.
This is interesting as Thoresen’s wife’s book contains this photo of him sitting on his motorcycle. The picture was taken in 1969, the same year as Beineman’s slaying. Wouldn’t you know it, Thoresen's motorcycle was none other than a Honda 350.
With this in mind, consider these two paragraphs from the Michigan Daily’s coverage of Collins’ trial: "On cross examination, Mrs. Goshe admitted that she had lied twice under oath, once in the filing of a marriage license and once at an earlier hearing of the Collins case.
Under sharp questioning by assistant defense counsel Neil Fink she was forced into contradicting a large number of her earlier statements, particularly in regard to the size of Collin’s motorcycle and her relationships with the press and the police.
She told the police that the motorcycle she had seen Collins riding, ‘was like a Honda 320 or 350.’ She attempted to deny this in yesterday’s cross examination. Collins in fact was riding a Triumph Bonneville 650, a motorcycle which bears little resemblance to a Honda 350.”
I don’t know about you, but this appears to be two examples of proof that Thoresen was the Michigan murderer and the prosecution was so eager to convict Collins that they asked at least one witness to commit perjury.
Yet, though it's record, none of this apparently has apparently made it into long form accounts of the case. This witness, who during the trial “was forced into contradicting a large number of her earlier statements” is still cited as a credible witness—including regarding what motorcycle it was the suspect (who she said was Collins) was sitting on.
Wikipedia cites accounts that say Goshe was mistaken. It was a Triumph, not a Honda. But there’s no way this can be accurate and it sounds to me like Goshe lied numerous times, including about what she originally said. Then you have documentation that Thoresen owned a Honda 350 that year. Or course, none of this would make anyone suspecting there was, and continues to be (see Wikipedia) a coverup regarding Thoresen any more confident in the government’s case against Collins.
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CaMan60
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HOME TOWN April 27/21
I like your good write up on on Collins, I read somewhere, he had good support from his home town and his old friends. And some people in jail will change and say okay i changed. but Collins still say,s it was Not him. Took a copy of william on the bike, that is him for sure.
I like your good write up on on Collins, I read somewhere, he had good support from his home town and his old friends. And some people in jail will change and say okay i changed. but Collins still say,s it was Not him. Took a copy of william on the bike, that is him for sure.
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