DY and TY feel this was planned ahead of time.

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I remember at the beginning of this,in an article,one of Desiree's siblings said D had alot to say,but couldn't at this time.I guess she's able to start saying things now.What have they got to lose in having to be quiet to not tick off Terri,she's obviously not talking anyway.So we're starting to hear why Desiree said to Terri,she better not have hurt her son.

It's coming more into focus,twelve hours sleeping and being trained not to get up till someone comes to get him,being afraid of not seeing the house while in the yard of Desiree's,Carol's and Kaine's,there was fear in that child.I would like to hear from the teacher to see what she has to say about this,also.

above bbm. this bolded statement really made me upset. i had not heard this before(had all the other, but not this exact info)...

so, its been stated that this poor little guy was fearful while playing in his own yard, his mom's yard, and his gma's yard that if he could not actually see the house that this was not ok(that this scared him)? meaning at all times he had to be in clear view of the house(as in wouldn't play in even wooded areas(looks like horman residence was surrounded by some beautifully, thick greenery, trees, wooded area)so would be typical for children to play, hide, using their imagination have awesome adventures throughout such areas, but am i to understand correctly that this would NOT be the case with kyron? that he had to be close to the actual house on the property(whether dads, moms, or gmas)at all times in order to feel safe and not scared?

most kids get so wrapped up in their playing(if even by themselves, say on an awesome excursion through just a tiny tree lined area their imaginations can have them in some far away jungle in africa)just saying most kids lose focus on something such as this while even playing alone..

this worries me even further and really makes me question why so much fear in this little guy?? and from whom did he fear the consequences from(i.e. if he got out of bed before adult came to get him)??who instilled such fear?? and what had they shared or told him that would make him have to keep the home in view at all times??
 
It's not that easy to get a child from the custodial parent and can you imagine the added stress that would make?

TH probably never hit him, but rather did things that could not be pinned down and explained by a child to an adult. Clever things like "losing his favorite toy" or giving baby K things that he would not get. Who knows.

But he was acting out at school to the point that it had been brought up by the teacher to the parents.

The teacher would be wracking her brain for what could be happening in this situation with the loving parents.

She probably would imagine some kind of medical cause, especially if the parents had been working on issues of not listening at school.

TH's mother said that he was timid, but the principal said he was "energetic." Maybe the 2 are not polar opposites. IDK

[ubm] yep, I've been thinking along those lines too ...

[bbm] do you remember where you read that? I don't recall seeing any statements from Terri's mother ...
 
[ubm] yep, I've been thinking along those lines too ...

[bbm] do you remember where you read that? I don't recall seeing any statements from Terri's mother ...

I think it was the PTA president who said he was timid. Probably in one of the very first stories on oregonlive.com. I would link to it, but my computer is being uncooperative just now.
 

Wow. I am just amazed at all the information that keeps coming out.

What information? Mostly what are coming out are the bio-parents feelings and suspicions and some legal paperwork around R.O. and TMH's behaviors after 6/28.

LE hasn't said a word nor provided any information about the actual investigation. We know very little, really.
 
Remember the topic at hand:

Do you think TH had this all planned? Why?

Stay on topic.

This post is landing at random and does not necessarily address the post above it.
 
What my take on this statement is, that Desiree and Tony (at least) are no longer willing to allow for a PPD defense; malice aforethought and criminal intent only.

My question would be then, if there is evidence to support such a notion, is that why Kaine was not with them? That tensions of signs not acted upon in the past are now causing a rift between the three of them?

It has been my experience that when people start devouring one person as much as Terri has been devoured by Desiree, Tony, and Kaine, that it is inevitable that the other three start to look at each other as the next likely person to cast blame onto, at whatever level. I hope they can maintain an united front for Kyron.
 
above bbm. this bolded statement really made me upset. i had not heard this before(had all the other, but not this exact info)...

so, its been stated that this poor little guy was fearful while playing in his own yard, his mom's yard, and his gma's yard that if he could not actually see the house that this was not ok(that this scared him)? meaning at all times he had to be in clear view of the house(as in wouldn't play in even wooded areas(looks like horman residence was surrounded by some beautifully, thick greenery, trees, wooded area)so would be typical for children to play, hide, using their imagination have awesome adventures throughout such areas, but am i to understand correctly that this would NOT be the case with kyron? that he had to be close to the actual house on the property(whether dads, moms, or gmas)at all times in order to feel safe and not scared?

most kids get so wrapped up in their playing(if even by themselves, say on an awesome excursion through just a tiny tree lined area their imaginations can have them in some far away jungle in africa)just saying most kids lose focus on something such as this while even playing alone..

this worries me even further and really makes me question why so much fear in this little guy?? and from whom did he fear the consequences from(i.e. if he got out of bed before adult came to get him)??who instilled such fear?? and what had they shared or told him that would make him have to keep the home in view at all times??




He was fearful because he didn't see very well. He was afraid of not being able to find his way back home if he ventured very far. This was explained at an earlier press conference.
 
I'm still having such a hard time wrapping my brain around "planning" something like this. What do you do, take notes? Look at your calendar for good dates for an abduction? I can better understand a "heat of the moment" type of thing, but a cold, calculated plan by an otherwise stable and normal-appearing mother and wife??

something can be planned quickly ... the thought can be there the evening before but the planning not really done until the day of, kwim?

having said that, I'm having a hard time thinking about what kind of planning would go into a possible abduction/murder
 
From my own experience when a child crys not to go home, abuse is the reason. This makes me very sad for Kyron, and even more afraid.

But, to be fair, this could also mean a child is more spoiled (gets their way constantly) in that household as well. Having whatever you want, all the time, would make me want to live a certain place all the time as well, and I am a grown adult.
 
At this point, I'm trudging in the dust with Trident and Sogren.

My hinky meter is going off constantly. Here are some of my concerns: why is everyone immediately assuming that if Kyron was upset, it was only because of the SM? Remember, her son was sent to a family member's home because of issues between him and KH.

And now I'm going to say some things that will really put me trudging in the dust. Before I do, I need to say this: no one here knows me, I've just started posting. I have great respect for LE. I graduated from Citizen's Police Academy and ride patrol with cops when I can. Part of my career was also in high-level security/intel/ELINT/counter-intel.

Whew. But, despite all that "tilt" toward LE, I see problems here. Let's start with the alleged murder-for-hire plot. Supposedly, this yard guy is "credible" because--why? LE said so. #1 People often interject themselves into big cases. #2 The same LE sent the yard guy, after all these months, with a STRANGER, to chat up TH. Yea, right. Even if she hadn't made the stranger as a cop, did they really think she was going to chat up the yard guy with the media camped out, the cops all over her, etc. etc? As in "Oh yea, Fred, glad to see ya again, look, things are a little hectic right now but since you didn't do the job already, I think you owe me a 15% price reduction when you finally do off my husband, the jerk."

Instead, she called police and reported a threat.

(cont'd)

above bbm. per the court docs i think landscaper #1 had proven his credibility to LE. per the court docs it shows that not only was INDEED a "landscaper" for tmh but also that there was indeed some "type" of relationship btwn the two. per the court docs it was sexual in nature(and imo probably fully "consummated" sexual in nature as unlike with mr.c the relationship btwn tmh and L#1 it went undiscovered therefore had time to develop further sexually)but at the least we know there were explicit sexual text btwn her and L#1. imo there is possibly evidence in the texts, emails,ims, etc alluding to the MFH plot(think about it, there has to be if kh listed that LE gave him probable cause of the MFH plan in the RO, LE would know that if contested by tmh that in court there would have to be evidence laid out of the MFH plan in order to prove the allegations of the entire basis for the RO and taking custody COMPLETELY away from a mother). landscaper is credible per LE and these latest docs just give us a tiny glimpse into the reasons that corroborated his story and LE deemed him credible...

begin quote- "Law enforcement has informed Petitioner's attorney that Respondent's stated personal relationship concerns and sexual overtures to Mr. C*** resembles these made to the man Respondent previously attempted to hire to murder Petitioner." -end quote
http://images.bimedia.net/documents/horman-affair.pdf
 
So many things to say and not sure how to say them.

Bandwagon? I signed up on Day 1, Hour 1, Minute 1, Second 1. Back then it was just me and my horse waiting in the shadows for the media to catch on so that I could FINALLY post what I was thinking.

Anyways, if you know someone with a mental illness, and I mean a crafty mental illness like narcissism or paranoia, then you know they can hide it for years and years. No one really knows the scope of it because they can turn on the charm and act completely normal when they want to. It's just those rare occasions that they do something that just seems so out of character that you either don't believe it when you hear it from someone else or you find excuses in your own mind if you witness it.

So for DY and/or TY to say they were blindsided and they saw it coming, makes complete sense to me.

Because, yeah, I do think TH has a mental illness of some sort. Don't know what, but there's something off there.
 
Originally Posted by human
~Snipped~

But he was acting out at school to the point that it had been brought up by the teacher to the parents.


This is interesting. I hadn’t heard about this before.


That is because Kaine never said that Kyron was acting out. Those were not his words.

Not listening to the teacher at school is acting out.
 
[ubm] yep, I've been thinking along those lines too ...

[bbm] do you remember where you read that? I don't recall seeing any statements from Terri's mother ...

I don't know where it is, but too lazy to search. Terri's mom is Carol Moulton and she talked about him as being timid. Maybe not those exact word?, but definitely the impression. He wouldn't leave the yard. He would get in trouble in school for talking. He would follow a friend out of the school.
 
(cont'd)
Understand, I am not excusing TH's behavior, because I think she has a boatload of problems.

But there also seems to have been a lot of toxic feelings and behaviors in that "extended family."

How TH wound up taking care of Kyron and the "friendship" between the 2 women has gone through widely varied stories. That whole thing was strange.

It's become apparent that KH, SM and SD all agree on one things: they hold TH in disdain, and I don't think that's new. Another poster here said a few days back that it was like TH had started as "servant" and moved up to wife. Agreed. And how did she get into all that anyway? Was it via Kaine? I also note that DY divorced KH *before* the baby was born, which indicates a real set of problems.

Then there's the constant focus on TH, TH, TH and the constant smearing. Plus how, according to KH & LE, LE keep telling them things about TH. Which brings me to this question: how much of the focus on TH comes from things said to LE by the other 3 adults? Obviously, there's real vitriol in the mix--and DY's husband is a detective. So has a lot of stuff flowed from KH & DY straight to the ears of cops as gospel if it came through SF?

ADDED IN EDIT (accidentally whacked out as I tidied post for typos)--and, speaking of plots and problems. Suppose as the marriage was unraveling, KH had told TH "I'll make sure you never see these kids again." Now suppose TH a) actually loved the little boy she'd been raising b) was worried about $ that would come w/child support c) a combination of a & b and d) didn't think he could take her own daugher, and wanted to figure out a way to not have Kyron taken away? (Again, sheer conjecture).

There's just too much hinky in all this.
***end of stuff added in edit

I still am not happy that the little boy's testimony about seeing and briefly talking with Kyron after TH left was so heavily discounted so early.

This poor little boy evidently lived in a cauldron of discord and adult problems, ranging from bigger half-brother having to leave because of problems with KH to all this animosity between the adults. Now he's missing, we're watching a mini Peyton Place, and so far, there has been so much emphasis on TH--especially from LE--and so much drama that Kyron's fate seems to be subtext now to something larger.

I want them to find Kyron, and to find the guilty parties, and to have enough clear, untainted evidence to find them legally guilty in court. But right now, I think the investigation has become a mishmash, is stalled, and maybe got off with tunnel vision on one person only.

I don't think TH walked Kyron out of that school. And if she'd said "oh, run look at something then meet me at the truck" I think Kyron might have said to his little friend: "yea, but gotta hurry, Mom wants me outside for a few minutes." (Sheer conjecture)

This is not to say that I believe TH to be innocent, not at all. But I also do not see enough to say that she's guilty, and that she did this all by herself. And I've seen some things from and about KH that make me wonder just how patient a parent he was--he may have been very controlling and perfectionistic and contributed to Kyron's timidity. I don't know--but I do know that all kinds of things are out there in what seems to be a personal brawl via media vs. "we just want our little boy back."

Whew. If anyone read all this, thanks.

And now I'm going to adjust my sun hat, fan myself, and trudge, trudge behind any bandwagons. I'm just too skeptical of too many people right now and too skeptical how what information has gotten to police--and back out--and how and why, and if the police followed a personal animosity as their lead and focused too much on TH at first, overlooking other stuff.

Trudge. Trudge.

[bbm1] they were in the process of divorce when she discovered she was pregnant

[bbm2] they are discovering things they apparently didn't know about this intimate person in their lives - disturbing things like mfh plots - I think they should tell the world what kind of hell they're trying to navigate and more power to them -

perhaps she should speak up and deny it if it's not true, a little something like "I did not, would not, could not hurt Kyron" and the whole mfh plot was just an off-hand joke that someone should not have taken seriously"

I mean, she hasn't been named a poi or suspect so why not speak to the media? she's not helping herself at all and I'm going to venture that any reasonable person would not allow others to 'smear' them with 'outlandish fabrications' without denying the accusations and slamming a lawsuit on them

I'm closing my eyes and putting myself in her position and hearing three other people telling the media that I attempted to have my husband offed and that I am responsible for my stepson's disappearance - yep, I'd be livid - I'd be calling a press conference - I'd be telling the entire world it's not true and demanding my child be returned to me at the same time and I'd be in court suing before the ink dried on the story

[bbm3&4] I haven't seen reference to a lot of discord & animosity - I'm not disagreeing that it's possible - I just haven't read about it (until after his disappearance)
 
Off topic a bit, but are there any "remote phone booths" anymore? Most of the ones I have seen are missing the actual phone.

yep and they are hearing-impaired equipped and they cost a lot more than they used to lol (I found this out one day when my cell died)
 
Remember the topic at hand:

Do you think TH had this all planned? Why?

Stay on topic.

This post is landing at random and does not necessarily address the post above it.

I am not sold on the idea of Kyron's disappearance being a planned thing. I am not positive that TH did it (innocent until proven guilty, etc), but if she did kill him, I think it was possibly a rage flare up for some reason. Perhaps a mess made them go back to the car, and things got out of control, for example.

DY saying Kyron was showing signs of being uncomfortable at the Horman home could easily be from erratic behaviour from TH (hence a rage killing) - I am not sure how DY's observations prove premeditation, whatsoever.

All that being said, I am not really comfortable taking KH, DY or TY's word on this without any statement from LE. I don't include TY as LE in regards to this case - not only is he from a different force, but he is, primarily, a family member in this case, which can easily render his opinions highly impressionistic. They are all, essentially, players in this case, and therefore I will continue taking their opinions as subjective/speculation until I get something more concrete to back up their statements.

"We hate her and always have," in my books, doesn't help me make up my mind.

All merely MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

ETA: Ever notice when a crowd gets on the topic of some evil woman, it always becomes a discussion of how devious and deceptive she was? I am never one to say women are saints in every instance, but neither do I believe are we always Lady MacBeth when we fall from grace. :twocents:

ETA2: Please don't take this as meaning rage killing is somehow "better" than a planned one - I just wonder why women are always seen as schemers and men are seen as impulsive. I am just not sold on this being a master plan of some sort. If it was TH, rage is a possibility, and if someone else it could have been opportunistic. I just don't have enough to be certain, either way. JMO.

ETA3: Yes, even I see that I go too far with the disclaimers and butt covering. I'm just trying not to push the wrong buttons. :angel:
 
Take from Patty G's Today's News Post.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/38239735#38239735

I did not see this anywhere else. What I am posting is not verbatim and is paraphrased in my notes.

When asked about the sexting, DY rolls her eyes and says that the fact that someone would do this ( at the time) spoke to their character.
DY and TY make no bones about the fact that they feel that this had been planned for sometime.
In fact DY stated that Kyron started to seem different. That he would break down and cry at times when he had to go home. She states that Kyron wanted to go live with them


How sad.

these are terrible circumstantial evidence from people. Is she not entitled to desires. Everyone is alienating her so shes seeking attention elsewhere.

Its interesting how when terri went to the gym people were bashing her stating that if she really was concerned with kyron, she would of went to the gym. Now when Kaine goes to the gym, no one said anything about that. Its just a total reaction at this point. So one need to be blamed.

And why didnt Desiree do her job as a mother and investigate why Kyron felt this way. Why didnt she talk to Terry and Kaine and have a sit down metting since this was an odd behavior for her son to do. If this is indeed true, she failed him as a mother to protect him.
 
I am not sold on the idea of Kyron's disappearance being a planned thing. I am not positive that TH did it (innocent until proven guilty, etc), but if she did kill him, I think it was likely to be a rage flare up for some reason. Perhaps a mess made them go back to the car, and things got out of control, for example.

DY saying Kyron was showing signs of being uncomfortable at the Horman home could easily be from erratic behaviour from TH (hence a rage killing) - I am not sure how DY's observations prove premeditation, whatsoever.

All that being said, I am not really comfortable taking KH, DY or TY's word on this without any statement from LE. I don't include TY as LE in regards to this case - not only is he from a different force, but he is, primarily, a family member in this case, which can easily render his opinions highly impressionistic.

They are all, essentially, players in this case, and therefore I will continue taking their opinions as subjective/speculation until I get something more concrete to back their statements up.

"We hate her and always have," in my books, doesn't help me make up my mind.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

ETA: Ever notice when a crowd gets on the topic of some evil woman, it always becomes a discussion of how devious and deceptive she was? I am never one to say women are saints in every instance, but neither do I believe are we always Lady MacBeth when we fall from grace. :twocents:



I agree with your theory of rage and also with your statements regarding taking Desiree, et al, with a grain of salt. They are hurting and angry and cannot possible be considered to be neutral. LE is neutral (we hope) and has not said anything similar, nor indicated that the family is speaking for LE. In fact they have stated the opposite and I would not be surprised if they are inclined to do so again. We have only heard from LE, it seems, when they are forced to address an issue about the family either talking or not talking to the media.
 
I am strongly thinking that Terri handed him off to a family...
and, I am worried Terri may have handed him off to a pedophile.

Maybe some guy she met on the Internet.

Nothing would surprise me at this point.

This case is bizarre, because Terri is bizarre.

In my opinion.
 
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