Egypt Air flight 804 missing, 19 May 2016

[CARIIS]

Didn't they launch a manslaughter investigation? I personally think they will release it

I wonder if it is different over there? I can only recall one crash(Valujet) where charges had been filed. Sure there are more, but this surprises me at this point in time.

I think they will release also , and in this type of scenario we will learn lots and lots - in all liklihood we will know exactly why she crashed --hopefully moo

Next up....what kind of "dance" will Egypt Air perform. The fact is downloading the data is not a time consuming activity. It is correlating it with all the other stuff (mainly flight data recorder to see if plane was doing what she was being ordered to do from the cockpit) to get the picture.

In Aisana in San Fran - public had portions of cockpit recorder in like 4 days--read to the world by NTSB Chairman.

So if they start BSing us about still being downloaded, transcribed bla bla we are being BSED


Basically, grab a court recorder, push play and wala!!


Thus far they, (govt) have violated every "norm" known in aviation investigation!

.....Egyptian government and military officials appear to have never heard of international protocol, which essentially gives the respective aircraft accident investigation bodies the sole mandate to communicate information, among other things.

Several different Egyptian government or military branches became involved in the public discussion, often contradicting themselves ....also providing conflicting updates at times,

Egypt Air in comparison has handled the immediate aftermath more professionally.

Flawed communication is one concern; the handling of the few pieces of debris recovered from the sea so far by military non-specialists is another and more serious issue. ........one does not even have to go as far as alleging that the military might have an interest in eliminating evidence that could point the accident investigation in a particular direction.....

...Improper handling of debris alone can make finding the real causes more difficult.

.......... technical problem could underlie an aircraft accident anywhere, but a cause specific to Egypt could have a severe impact on tourism.

.... The Metrojet crash made matters much worse, and not only for EgyptAir: Many European leisure carriers were forced to direct capacity away from their Egyptian routes....

.. has led to a shift of capacity toward places perceived as “safer,” such as Spain or Italy. .....
EgyptAir itself has a history of denial .... (NTSB) conclusions for the Oct. 31, 1999, crash of a Boeing 767-300ER off Nantucket, Rhode Island, ......... ..... the relief first officer had intentionally brought the aircraft down, essentially in an act of suicide.....

Just common sense ---he did it. Long flight....had relief crew.....normally the releif crew comes up hours in for the cruise segment. In this instance the relief copilot came and wanted to take over, 20 minutes into the flight.? There was actually some conflict about it.

The relief pilot starts saying" I rely on god" turns the autopilot off, then puts the engines in idle.

The reality was you had the captain pulling up and the other pilot pushing down (Flight data recorder clearly shows this).

Captain tells him to "get away" from the engines. Crash. Egypt says the co-pilot did nothing??.

Throw in Metro Jet nonsense. That was not terrorist either. Look at the picture of the aircraft at the gate, you can see an entire circle around the tail section indicating corrision. Not a little corrison. Look you can see a seam coming apart.

Look at the pic - would you want to get aboard??

Serious stuff:

On the ground: Now look at the clean break (notice location - identical) of the tail section on the ground. On the top portion if the aircraft in the pic below, you can actually see the perfect (not jagged) seperation sequence. Notice as it shears off around the bottom of the aircraft it gets much more "torn off". An airplane salvaging company could not get that clean a breakoff!!!!! Totally congruent with almost like an eggshell at the top. Bombs. do.not.do.that.

That too IMO, is metal fatigue and hideous maintenance -- liability.

If it walks like a duck................

Point ! Egypt lies regarding aviation - peorid!

..... more to do with political fallout ...

Given the way Egypt handled the 2015 Metrojet and 1999 EgyptAir crashes, and seems to be handling the latest tragedy, the international aviation safety community should keep a close eye on the investigation. ...

It is also encouraging that the French aircraft accident investigation bureau BEA, internationally recognized for its high standards, is participating

One can be certain that it will stick to the facts.

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-...-investigation-ms804-accident-raises-concerns

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990

 

[Roselvr]

Also from the article above.

No distress calls were made from the flight deck, suggesting the pilots may have been incapacitated or too busy trying to save the aircraft to broadcast a Mayday.

A forensics expert said body parts retried from the crash were small and pointed to a possible explosion on board, but the head of Egypt's forensics authority dismissed it as "mere assumptions".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-on-board-wreckage-paris-flight-a7120386.html

This is the most I've seen so far with errors

Seven minutes before contact was lost with the plane as it flew from Paris to Cairo, one of the black boxes recorded a sequence of messages indicating multiple faults on board - possibly including fire in a toilet and the main electronics bay.

The first message, sent at 2.26am Cairo time, read: “ANTI ICE R WINDOW” - indicating a problem with the heater for the first-officer’s window.

Six more messages followed in the next three minutes. Two were concerned with window sensors, while two mentioned smoke. One detector was in a toilet behind the flight deck and the second in the avionics bay beneath the cockpits...

While the smoke detectors are intended to indicate fire, they can also be triggered by condensation of the kind that occurs in the event of sudden decompression.

The final two messages, sent within seconds of each other at 2.29am, read “AUTO FLT FCU 2 FAULT” and “F/CTL SEC 3 FAULT”, indicating problems with the autopilot and the flight control system respectively.

Four minutes later, the aircraft’s transponder made its last broadcast, relaying details of the aircraft and its location before it crashed into the Mediterranean Sea on 19 May, killing all 66 people on board.

 

[CARIIS]

Does anyone know how large the actual debris field is for plane itself - have tried to find a drawing, have not found anything. Anyone?

 

[Roselvr]

Does anyone know how large the actual debris field is for plane itself - have tried to find a drawing, have not found anything. Anyone?

I personally haven't seen anything

 

[dotr]

Does anyone know how large the actual debris field is for plane itself - have tried to find a drawing, have not found anything. Anyone?

rbbm

http://www.wsj.com/articles/egypt-d...ght-804-found-in-the-mediterranean-1463737727

The debris included personal belongings and parts of the A320, an Egyptian military spokesman said in Cairo. EgyptAir said later Friday that human remains were also discovered by military search teams 190 miles north of the Egyptian city of Alexandria, confirming earlier reports from Greek officials. The debris field is 40 miles wide, according to a senior Egyptian official.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=The+...UICigD&biw=1300&bih=637#imgrc=l7jS5pUM1WcENM:

 

[CARIIS]

rbbm

http://www.wsj.com/articles/egypt-d...ght-804-found-in-the-mediterranean-1463737727


https://www.google.ca/search?q=The+...UICigD&biw=1300&bih=637#imgrc=l7jS5pUM1WcENM:

WOW- IMO, that translates to after the intial descent, it did indeed break up before impact --thats a huge debris field moo

 

[Dr. Know?]

John LETHBRIDGE ‏@DeepOceanSearch 2h2 hours ago
Mission of @DeepOceanSearch extended for a second additional period until the 18th of July.
#MS804 #Egyptair
http://civilaviation.gov.eg/News/news pages ar/messs_9_7_16.html …

ARTHUR H. ROSENBERG ‏@AIRLAW2001 3h3 hours ago
#EgyptAir flight #MS804 debris that reached #Israeli shores to be analyzed.

https://twitter.com/AIRLAW2001

 

[Dr. Know?]

How did EgyptAir flight MS804 debris reach Israeli shores?
Debris from an aircraft can travel thousands of miles, says analyst

(that's 466 miles)

The distance between the crash site and Netanya is about 750km.

Professor Robert Jones, department chairperson of aviation and transportation studies at Lewis University, said that debris can travel thousands of miles.

“This is of course dependent on the type or size of debris. Large fuselage pieces can float on currents. Thousands of other components that are buoyant can also travel long distances, depending on current tides and hydrology of the water,” Jones told Daily News Egypt.

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2016/07/09/how-did-egyptair-flight-ms804-debris-reach-israeli-shores/

 

[Roselvr]

How did EgyptAir flight MS804 debris reach Israeli shores?
Debris from an aircraft can travel thousands of miles, says analyst

(that's 466 miles)

The distance between the crash site and Netanya is about 750km.

Professor Robert Jones, department chairperson of aviation and transportation studies at Lewis University, said that debris can travel thousands of miles.

“This is of course dependent on the type or size of debris. Large fuselage pieces can float on currents. Thousands of other components that are buoyant can also travel long distances, depending on current tides and hydrology of the water,” Jones told Daily News Egypt.

http://www.dailynewsegypt.com/2016/07/09/how-did-egyptair-flight-ms804-debris-reach-israeli-shores/

Sounds like they're worried someone will find parts and sell them

“Larger, heavier items like landing gear, engines, and heavy structural components tend to sink and are often difficult to detect. This can be complicated given the water depth, temperature, and prevailing sea bed topography, ie corals, silt, sand, and rock beds,” he added.

Most aircraft components have part numbers affixed to them usually by paint, embossing, or some sort of heavy impression marking. The manufacturer part number, serial number, and airline operator data is usually visible.

“It is critical to keep these parts properly documented to avoid black market or illegitimate components from being installed on any commercial aircraft. Therefore, if a part is installed on a specific aircraft, it is usually a matter of typing that serial number into a database to see if it belonged on that specific aircraft,” Jones said.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Air Disasters ‏@AirCrashMayday 54s55 seconds ago
BREAKING The word 'FIRE' has been heard on the Cockpit Voice Recorder of EgyptAir Flight #MS804

Daily News EgyptVerified account ‏@DailyNewsEgypt 41m41 minutes ago
@EGYPTAIR #MS804 CVR reveals the word "fire" was mentioned in a conversation in cockpit. Too early to identify reasons and location of fire.

 

[Roselvr]

Air Disasters ‏@AirCrashMayday 54s55 seconds ago
BREAKING The word 'FIRE' has been heard on the Cockpit Voice Recorder of EgyptAir Flight #MS804

Daily News EgyptVerified account ‏@DailyNewsEgypt 41m41 minutes ago
@EGYPTAIR #MS804 CVR reveals the word "fire" was mentioned in a conversation in cockpit. Too early to identify reasons and location of fire.

Thanks so much! Hopefully they'll release more

 

[Dr. Know?]

Thanks so much! Hopefully they'll release more

I hope it's soon. The thoughts the family have now of a fire. Have mercy on them and give them an answer. No bits and pieces. Just heartbreaking knowing they wait.

 

[Roselvr]

Found a newish article that says the ship recovering remains reached port and is done collecting remains. Egyptian and French judiciary are still investigating what caused the fire. I wonder if we will ever hear the end result.

Word 'fire' heard on cockpit voice recorder from crashed EgyptAir 804 -Saturday 16 July 2016 21.53 EDT
Investigators earlier said other black box retrieved from site where plane crashed into Mediterranean confirmed smoke alarms had sounded onboard

The word “fire” is heard on the cockpit voice recorder of EgyptAir 804 before the plane crashed into the Mediterranean in May, an Egyptian-led investigative committee said Saturday.

Investigators had earlier said the other black box retrieved from the crash site, the data recorder, confirmed that smoke alarms had sounded onboard, while soot on wreckage indicates a fire.

The data recorder points to smoke signals indicating fires in the lavatory and avionics section of the plane, according to the committee.

The data on the voice recorder had been downloaded earlier this month after it was repaired.

The Airbus A320 was carrying 40 Egyptians, 15 French, two Iraqis, two Canadians and one passenger each from Algeria, Belgium, Britain, Chad, Portugal, Saudi Arabia and Sudan.

It had set off from Paris to Cairo when it disappeared from radar over the Mediterranean.

Egyptian investigators have confirmed the aircraft made a 90-degree left turn followed by a 360-degree turn to the right before hitting the sea.

The latest committee statement said the search for the remains of passengers has ended.

 

[Roselvr]

Found a newish article that says the ship recovering remains reached port and is done collecting remains. Egyptian and French judiciary are still investigating what caused the fire. I wonder if we will ever hear the end result.

Word 'fire' heard on cockpit voice recorder from crashed EgyptAir 804 -Saturday 16 July 2016 21.53 EDT
Investigators earlier said other black box retrieved from site where plane crashed into Mediterranean confirmed smoke alarms had sounded onboard

I forgot that I actually caught this article from the other one that lists names

Who was on board EgyptAir flight MS804?By Patrick Greenfield - Friday 20 May 2016 10.57 EDT
Fifty-six passengers and 10 crew members were on the Airbus plane that crashed into the Mediterranean
• We will update this article as more information becomes available

 

[CARIIS]

Found a newish article that says the ship recovering remains reached port and is done collecting remains. Egyptian and French judiciary are still investigating what caused the fire. I wonder if we will ever hear the end result.

Word 'fire' heard on cockpit voice recorder from crashed EgyptAir 804 -Saturday 16 July 2016 21.53 EDT
Investigators earlier said other black box retrieved from site where plane crashed into Mediterranean confirmed smoke alarms had sounded onboard

Imo this is BS! Maybe I am spoiled by the NTSB, but transcripts are typically released - and in the final rpeorts of all accidents, the entire CVR is included in each one. They are actually fascinating.

The only conclusion I can come to is the recorder indicates, in all liklihood, an "event" that occured that could lead back to a maintenance issue. I.E making it up! Two months earlier the pilot wrote up XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX maintenace claimed they could not replicate it OR claimed they repaired it and from CVR they know it can be linked back to that write up.

Or something that indicates that they did not do proper metal fatigue testing, and it was structural failure - again back to mainenance.

I dont know how they get away with it tho -- its an AIrbus - France would be in the investgation and they follow the same protocols as NTSB, and are very very sharp. I do not know , can Egypt prevent them ---that is NOT how it works in Britain, Germany , here,France Spain.

This feels like Russia, or N Korea!! Or Malaysia!! Or China!! moo

THe old adage "There is something rotten in Denmark!"

 

[CARIIS]

Evidence gathered in an investigation into the crash of EgyptAir Flight 804 in the Mediterranean Sea in May indicates that the plane most likely broke up in midair after a fire near or inside the cockpit that quickly overwhelmed the crew, according to Egyptian officials involved in the inquiry.

But the officials could not determine whether the fire thought to have caused the crash had been set off by a mechanical malfunction or by a malicious act.

The findings are based on information from the Airbus A320’s flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder — commonly known as black boxes — along with an analysis of the condition and distribution of recovered debris, including human remains, according to forensic and aviation officials in Cairo. The officials spoke this week on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the investigation publicly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/23/world/middleeast/egyptair-804-crash-fire.html?_r=0

 

[CARIIS]

No complete bodies have been retrieved, and almost none of the discovered remains were strapped into seats, the officials said. One forensic specialist estimated that search teams had found only a few remains, less than 70 pounds in all.

last link lost it !

 

[Hatfield]

Evidence gathered in an investigation into the crash of EgyptAir Flight 804 in the Mediterranean Sea in May indicates that the plane most likely broke up in midair after a fire near or inside the cockpit that quickly overwhelmed the crew, according to Egyptian officials involved in the inquiry.

But the officials could not determine whether the fire thought to have caused the crash had been set off by a mechanical malfunction or by a malicious act.

The findings are based on information from the Airbus A320’s flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder — commonly known as black boxes — along with an analysis of the condition and distribution of recovered debris, including human remains, according to forensic and aviation officials in Cairo. The officials spoke this week on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the investigation publicly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/23/world/middleeast/egyptair-804-crash-fire.html?_r=0

Re BBM
Wait a minute. I can agree to a fire on board and the wreck being caused by a fire. But what doesn't make sense to me is breaking up in midair?


Planes just don't start falling apart in midair just because a fire is on board. What the heck is that all about.

Im not convinced it broke up in midair unless the parts were scattered all over the place under water. Some parts would break off upon hitting the water and if water is deep then they will scatter quite a distance before they settle on the bottom. So maybe it is a wrong assumption because they found some parts scattered far apart on bottom.

A simple way to look at it is if you are in deep water and hold a handful of parts and let go of them in one spot at top of water then as they float down then some parts are going to start spreading apart before they touch bottom. The deeper the water then the more spreading as the parts settle. So even if the plane hit the water all together at point of impact then some parts would float apart down before bottom.

Im wondering if that is a mistake that someone is thinking the plane broke apart in midair and caused the spreading of where they settled.

I just don't buy the plane broke apart in midair unless there was some sort of explosion in the air. A simple fire would not cause the plane to break apart in midair.
Even if an engine exploded in midair then it would just be a few parts of the engine that would fly away from the plane and end up about a mile or so from where rest of plane hit.

Unless we get a full detailed report of where all the debri was found and the size of all the parts then we really cant believe some of what we are hearing.

Right now I do think a simple fire on board caused smoke throughout the plane and maybe even an engine failure that brought it down. I don't buy that it broke apart in midair unless they have some other evidence to support that.

Also, I could see how a smoke filled cabin could cause the plane to turn 90 degrees and then do a 360 after that.
Lets assume it was just a simple fire which caused the entire cabin to begin to fill with smoke. Really thick smoke where you cant breath. If the pilots could not get their gas masks on then they took one or two deep breaths of that thick smoke and started coughing and choking on the poisonous smoke. Probably let go of the steering wheel as they choked and gasped for air and passed out in their seats. The last thing one pilot did was try to turn the plane and then let go of the wheel. So as the plane wheel corrects itself back to the right it is diving downwards at the same time and goes into a death spiral. The death spiral downwards would be the 360 they are talking about. The way they wrote it it makes people think the plane is level doing a 360 but really it is heading straight down as it spirals into a 360.

Something along those lines I could see happening with a cabin filled with thick toxic poisonous smoke so thick that one or two breaths and that's it for anyone who breathed it.

It kind of makes me wonder if planes need another safety device that we never hear about. Some sort of reverse vacuum that could suck all the smoke out of a plane and force it outside while replenishing the cockpit with forced clean air. The whole recirculating of air in planes doesnt work too well when a cabin starts to fill wtih thick smoke. They need something totally different than that and I have never heard of anything that could clean out a smoke filled plane quickly.

I guess fires with smoke inside the cabin don't happen often enough to create such a system. This one sure could have used something like that.

 

[Hatfield]

No complete bodies have been retrieved, and almost none of the discovered remains were strapped into seats, the officials said. One forensic specialist estimated that search teams had found only a few remains, less than 70 pounds in all.

last link lost it !

If this was some sort of terrorist bombing of the plane while it was in midair then I could see where it could have broke up some in midair. But wasn't there some time after the first smoke that the pilots were still trying to navigate and fly the plane after smoke first detected. We would think they would have heard an explosion and said somthing about it in the cockpit if a bomb had gone off. u

We need a detailed report like you were saying. Its not good to be getting bits of news like has been released. Where is the detailed report of the investigation.

 

[Hatfield]

Here is the crazy thing. The pilot asks the other pilot to get a fire extinguisher. WTH? The fire had to have been pretty close to the cockpit or the pilot would have had to seen flames or something to ask his other pilot to grab an extinguisher. Why no mention of a bomb.? It seems it was just a fire at that point.

"Crew members were playing music and chatting amiably when the pilot, Capt. Muhammad Shoukair, 36, suddenly said there was a fire on board and asked the co-pilot, Muhammad Mamdouh Assem, 24, to get an extinguisher. That was the last human sound the recorder captured."

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/23/world/middleeast/egyptair-804-crash-fire.html?_r=1

Unless it blew up right after the fire started or something. Its really strange. If there really is no large parts on bottom and if they are scattered miles apart then I could go with a bomb or something. But I think we need more evidence at this point. Not near enough has been found of the wreckage it seems.

After all these weeks then why isn't more of the wreckage located. This investigation has been way too secret so far. Something doesn't sound right yet.

And the other thing that does make me lean towards terrorism is smoke in the lavoratory and near the cockpit. Why both places. It was almost like one terrorist went into the bathroom and started a fire and another one went near the cockpit door and started another fire. That could explain why the pilot asked for an extinguisher. If a couple terrorists managed to bring on board flammable liquid like gasoline and then poured it under the door into the cockpit and then lit it on fire then it may explaine why the pilot asked the copilot to get an extinguisher. If enough liquid went under the door then they could have been burned so badly that they had to let go of the steering wheels and then the death spiral to the ground again.

I am mainly baffled why there was no explosion sound by the pilot unless an explosion happened after all the smoke. Maybe the whole time the terrorist were trying to detonate a bomb and it finally went off after a bunch of smoke and flames. l

This is another mystery right now to me.

I know everyone is getting tired of not having enough information from the planes when they go down. It seems we really need some major changes. Like instead of just voide recording. How about video of the inside of the cabin too. And how about GPS signal of location the whole time plane is in the air.


Some simple changes until they can create these systems could do the job.
Why not a simple Go Pro camera filming the cockpit and why not a simple hand held GPS device. Have them both in a protective shell and just turn the things one before each flight. Total cost is under 1500 bucks until they can install something better.

Its getting ridiculous with these mystery plane crashes.

Its unbelievable to think we can have kids with go pros filming stuff and getting them on Utube within hours of filming and have GPS devices in our cars and phones and these high tech planes cant tell us what happened or where they end up when they wreck.