Evidence Against Patsy That Most People Have Never Read Before

[JBean]

Patsy didn't see the body until it was brought up. The buzz was "Jonbenet has been found!" not that "Jonbenet is dead and John is bringing her body up!".

Considering her daughter was supposedly "kidnapped", it makes sense that she should be hoping and thinking her daughter is alive until she knows she is not.

John on the other hand did see the body...and even though it was clear she was dead, he claimed he tried to revive her and carried her upstairs to still try to revive her.
Meanwhile, the detective on the scene could tell from a distance Jonbenet was dead...she didn't need to be up close.

The buzz? Are you saying that PR had no idea that JBR was dead when JR brought her from the basement? Only that she was found? That is indeed very important and incriminating. Can you point me to the information that PR was only under the impression that she had been found? I am all mixed up because I thought it was determined fairly quickly(within moments) that she was dead.

 

[angelwngs]

The buzz? Are you saying that PR had no idea that JBR was dead when JR brought her from the basement? Only that she was found? That is indeed very important and incriminating. Can you point me to the information that PR was only under the impression that she had been found? I am all mixed up because I thought it was determined fairly quickly(within moments) that she was dead.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I posted this earlier on thread Every Possibility:

http://crimemagazine.com/jonbenetdocs.htm

Quote Angelwngs:
Barbara Fernie and Priscilla White immediately leave the sun porch with Patsy upon hearing the commotion of the 911 call for an ambulance and the subsequent entrance of John Ramsey carrying JBR upstairs. Patsy remains seated in the sun porch. I believe this was in Det. LA's statement of the events/timeline of the day.

Det. LA said she heard a gutteral sound/moan some from the sun porch after JBR's body was brought upstairs. Shortly after this sound, Patsy entered and threw herself on JBR's body saying, 'Jesus, you raised Lazerus from the dead. Please Jesus, raise my baby from the dead.'

(JMO, but I sure hope that there were several hysterical, 'Oh Dear Gods... and Oh No's' before this statement exited her mouth. Otherwise, it sure looks as if she already knew JBR was dead a descent time prior to entering the room.)

 

[RiverRat]

The article's claim that Patsy Ramsey "collapsed" on her daughter's body also is not accurate, Arndt testified.

"The top part of Patsy's body was on the lower part of JonBenet's body, which was covered by a blanket," Arndt said.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_622280,00.html

So there you go - Patsy was not near the garrotte or the tape with the priceless fibers. :dance:

 

[JBean]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I posted this earlier on thread Every Possibility:

http://crimemagazine.com/jonbenetdocs.htm

Quote Angelwngs:
Barbara Fernie and Priscilla White immediately leave the sun porch with Patsy upon hearing the commotion of the 911 call for an ambulance and the subsequent entrance of John Ramsey carrying JBR upstairs. Patsy remains seated in the sun porch. I believe this was in Det. LA's statement of the events/timeline of the day.

Det. LA said she heard a gutteral sound/moan some from the sun porch after JBR's body was brought upstairs. Shortly after this sound, Patsy entered and threw herself on JBR's body saying, 'Jesus, you raised Lazerus from the dead. Please Jesus, raise my baby from the dead.'

(JMO, but I sure hope that there were several hysterical, 'Oh Dear Gods... and Oh No's' before this statement exited her mouth. Otherwise, it sure looks as if she already knew JBR was dead a descent time prior to entering the room.)

Oh thank you angelwngs.
It sounds more like she waited a moment before approaching the body as opposed to "never getting up from the couch" to go see her. Your passage sounds to me like she probably had a pretty good idea that JBR was dead rather than thinking she had only "been found". Seems as though her response was pretty normal as opposed to an odd behavior of PR. JMHO of course.
.
Thanks again.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

The buzz? Are you saying that PR had no idea that JBR was dead when JR brought her from the basement? Only that she was found? That is indeed very important and incriminating. Can you point me to the information that PR was only under the impression that she had been found? I am all mixed up because I thought it was determined fairly quickly(within moments) that she was dead.

2000 March 27 Larry King Live with John and Patsy Ramsey

John Ramsey: "I took the tape off her mouth, I tried to untie her arms. They were very tightly bound. I couldn't get the knot unbound and then I just -- I picked her up and I just screamed, the kind of scream you scream in a dream when you -- you're trying to speak, but you can't. It's just a scream."

Larry King: "When you -- did you see her, too?"

Patsy Ramsey: "I heard him scream."

Larry King: "You never saw her?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yes, I did then see her. My friends were -- I was in the TV room and they were -- I said what is it? What is it? And they kept, you know, holding me, wait, I don't know what it is. One of our friends ran into the room and said, we need an ambulance, tried to dial 911, and I kept screaming, what is it? What is it? And, you know, then in just a couple of minutes, then I walked into the living room."

Larry King: "What did the police say? Did they say anything? Did they..."

John Ramsey: "Well, Linda Arndt was the only police person that was there that I recall."

Larry King: "They all had left? The others had left?"

John Ramsey: "Well, I don't know. There were a lot of people there at 3:00 in the morning."

04-18-2000 Steve Thomas, "JonBenet, Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation"

"Detective Linda Arndt, still working with a cell telephone instead of a police radio, was waiting for her pages to be returned when she heard a shout. The paniked Fleet White ran up the stairs, grabbed a telephone and punched in a few numbers, then hug up. He ran back toward the basement, yelling for someone to call an ambulance, as if he had forgotten a detective was standing right there."

"Patsy Ramsey was in the den with her friends, and when White shouted, Priscilla White and Barbara Fernie hurried toward the sound. Patsy did not move from the couch."

"John Ramsey emerged from the basement carrying the body of JonBenet, not cradled close but held away from him, his hands gripping her waist. The child's head was above his, facing him, her arms were rised high, stiffened by rigor mortis, and her lips were blue. The child was obviously dead."
*********************

It would appear to me the first commotion that occurred when John discovered Jonbenet was to call 911 for an ambulance. You don't call ambulances for a dead person.
If we are to believe John, he didn't even know Jonbenet was dead until he was told she was.
One would think Patsy would have rushed into the room with her friends upon the news her daughter has been found and that somebody needs to call 911.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

The article's claim that Patsy Ramsey "collapsed" on her daughter's body also is not accurate, Arndt testified.

"The top part of Patsy's body was on the lower part of JonBenet's body, which was covered by a blanket," Arndt said.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_622280,00.html

So there you go - Patsy was not near the garrotte or the tape with the priceless fibers. :dance:

Interesting indeed...really, I believe Patsy's fibers are probably the most damning piece of evidence in the case.

They're that close to a smoking gun.

 

[julianne]

This is an interesting statement, HoT.If you are saying that it was reasonable for Patsy to have perhaps thought that JBR was alive, why is everyone so suspicious of JR removing the tape and bringin her upstairs? If there was even the slightest chance that she could be revived, I would have done the same thing as JR. So I find it interetsing that some find it preposterous that JR did not preserve the crime scene, discounting the fact that he may have hoped she was alive,yet some of you express confusion that Patsy should have considered that JBR was alive.

Good post, JBean. In subsequent posts it is said that the fact that JonBenet was stiff (rigor mortis) should've told John that she was dead. True--BUT, he removed the tape from her mouth BEFORE he picked her up, before he would've known if she was "stiff."

Even still, knowing that she was stiff, I think if it was my kid I would still attempt anything...no matter how illogical. I mean, we all know it wouldn't be logical at all to try to revive someone who is in rigor mortis, but the shock, adrenaline, & pure devastation and agony could certainly make one do totally illogical things.

 

[PagingDrDetect]

John Ramsey: "Well, Linda Arndt was the only police person that was there that I recall."

Larry King: "They all had left? The others had left?"

John Ramsey: "Well, I don't know. There were a lot of people there at 3:00 in the morning."


At 3:00 in the MORNING???

 

[JBean]

snipped for space

It would appear to me the first commotion that occurred when John discovered Jonbenet was to call 911 for an ambulance. You don't call ambulances for a dead person.
If we are to believe John, he didn't even know Jonbenet was dead until he was told she was.
One would think Patsy would have rushed into the room with her friends upon the news her daughter has been found and that somebody needs to call 911.

IMO, your excerpt does not support the notion of "odd behavior" by PR. The original post said that "PR never left the couch" and the discussion was that she should have rushed in there assuming the child may be alive.
My take on "the buzz" is that it was that JBR was indeed found, but it was not looking very good. Patsy did go see her daughter within minutes. This all sounds reasonable to me and I do not think this exemplifies any incriminating behavior on the part of PR.JMHO.
Patsy said in your link:
Patsy Ramsey: "Yes, I did then see her. My friends were -- I was in the TV room and they were -- I said what is it? What is it? And they kept, you know, holding me, wait, I don't know what it is. One of our friends ran into the room and said, we need an ambulance, tried to dial 911, and I kept screaming, what is it? What is it? And, you know, then in just a couple of minutes, then I walked into the living room."

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

Good post, JBean. In subsequent posts it is said that the fact that JonBenet was stiff (rigor mortis) should've told John that she was dead. True--BUT, he removed the tape from her mouth BEFORE he picked her up, before he would've known if she was "stiff."

Even still, knowing that she was stiff, I think if it was my kid I would still attempt anything...no matter how illogical. I mean, we all know it wouldn't be logical at all to try to revive someone who is in rigor mortis, but the shock, adrenaline, & pure devastation and agony could certainly make one do totally illogical things.

It's conceivable that a parent in distress would remove the tape. It's even conceivable they'd pick their child up.
Jonbenet's eyes were closed upon discovery...had they been open...well...

Course...on the other hand, by picking her up, the rigor mortis would have been plain. And while John went on about trying to untie the cord on her wrist (which in fact was loose)...for some reason he didn't pay mind to the garrotte wrapped tightly around her throat.

If John is to be believed...he did not know she was dead until the detective told him so.

 

[JBean]

It's conceivable that a parent in distress would remove the tape. It's even conceivable they'd pick their child up.
Jonbenet's eyes were closed upon discovery...had they been open...well...

Course...on the other hand, by picking her up, the rigor mortis would have been plain. And while John went on about trying to untie the cord on her wrist (which in fact was loose)...for some reason he didn't pay mind to the garrotte wrapped tightly around her throat.

If John is to be believed...he did not know she was dead until the detective told him so.

That's a really good point. I can say with certainty that i would have removed the tape and then loosened the garrotte straight away.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

IMO, your excerpt does not support the notion of "odd behavior" by PR. The original post said that "PR never left the couch" and the discussion was that she should have rushed in there assuming the child may be alive.
My take on "the buzz" is that it was that JBR was indeed found, but it was not looking very good. Patsy did go see her daughter within minutes. This all sounds reasonable to me and I do not think this exemplifies any incriminating behavior on the part of PR.JMHO.
Patsy said in your link:
Patsy Ramsey: "Yes, I did then see her. My friends were -- I was in the TV room and they were -- I said what is it? What is it? And they kept, you know, holding me, wait, I don't know what it is. One of our friends ran into the room and said, we need an ambulance, tried to dial 911, and I kept screaming, what is it? What is it? And, you know, then in just a couple of minutes, then I walked into the living room."

Indeed...that was her statement.

I've also seen it said that her friends left her sitting on the couch when the first commotion started up (Call 911!)...Patsy did not go with them. If that conflicts with Patsy's statements of her friends keeping her in that room...well, that's an issue indeed.

In the first commotion, the general idea was that John had found her and she needed an ambulance. The detective's assertion deflated that commotion, and into a new one.

Patsy indeed did go within minutes (apparently at the insistence of her friends)...at which point she threw herself on the body and gave her dramatic exclamation.

I don't think anyone's claimed Patsy never left the couch...the issue is when she did.

Personally, I wouldn't mind finding a more complete account of the exact events of that day...but they sure are hard to find...

 

[JBean]

Indeed...that was her statement.

I've also seen it said that her friends left her sitting on the couch when the first commotion started up (Call 911!)...Patsy did not go with them. If that conflicts with Patsy's statements of her friends keeping her in that room...well, that's an issue indeed.

In the first commotion, the general idea was that John had found her and she needed an ambulance. The detective's assertion deflated that commotion, and into a new one.

Patsy indeed did go within minutes (apparently at the insistence of her friends)...at which point she threw herself on the body and gave her dramatic exclamation.

I don't think anyone's claimed Patsy never left the couch...the issue is when she did.

Personally, I wouldn't mind finding a more complete account of the exact events of that day...but they sure are hard to find...

This is what I was originally responding to:

Everyone was screaming and carrying on that JonBenet had been found... but Patsy NEVER got up from the couch she was sitting on to run out there to see her.As far as Patsy knew at that point, JonBenet could have been alive, so why didn't she jump off the couch and go running out there to see her?

I have also read that her friends held her back from going into the room until they knew what she was going to see. But lord knows where that account is.
I guess what i mean is a slight change of words can completely alter the intent and meaning of all the players actions. That is one of the things that makes it hard to separate out the real story, because even though the statements may be very very close to the truth, just being off by a little bit changes the whole flavor sometimes.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

That's a really good point. I can say with certainty that i would have removed the tape and then loosened the garrotte straight away.

So would I. It would be hard to miss.

In John's statements, and as well DOI...he never mentions the garrotte...when he's carrying her up the stairs, it's like he didn't notice it. I would imagine though the handle part of it would have been moving around.
It's odd, least to me, how he never seems to recollect about it...even in official statements.

Instead...he goes on about untying her hands...and that the knots are too tight...I believe only one wrist had a cord tied on it...and was loose enough for the hand to slip out of it.

 

[angelwngs]

It's conceivable that a parent in distress would remove the tape. It's even conceivable they'd pick their child up.
Jonbenet's eyes were closed upon discovery...had they been open...well...

Course...on the other hand, by picking her up, the rigor mortis would have been plain. And while John went on about trying to untie the cord on her wrist (which in fact was loose)...for some reason he didn't pay mind to the garrotte wrapped tightly around her throat.

If John is to be believed...he did not know she was dead until the detective told him so.

My 78 year old father died at our home while I was at school teaching. My husband discovered his body, obviously dead for hours prior. My mother and brother soon arrived after the ambulance, and forced the paramedics to do CPR. Upon entering the ER and seeing my father, I even asked if they had tried to revive him. In retrospect, it was an obviously stupid question as he was blue. Even though rigor was obvious to any rational human, the shock of the death of a loved one fogs the brain and they often seem to react very irrationally.

Did Fleet White corroborate JR's claim to have removed the duct tape to do CPR/Mouth to Mouth? I have never seen copies of any interview of FW w/ LE...
Can someone direct me to one if they are available?

 

[julianne]

The article's claim that Patsy Ramsey "collapsed" on her daughter's body also is not accurate, Arndt testified.

"The top part of Patsy's body was on the lower part of JonBenet's body, which was covered by a blanket," Arndt said.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_622280,00.html

So there you go - Patsy was not near the garrotte or the tape with the priceless fibers. :dance:

This doesn't clear anything up, IMO. The above link is a story where Linda Arndt admits to, quote "withholding notes taken during the first 2 weeks of the murder investigation, never filed a report on the contents of the notes, which a police attorney repeatedly described as "critical" to prosecuting the killer."

It goes on to say she never transcribed the notes, kept them in a locked desk drawer of her office, then took them home in 1999 after she quit. Then she gave them to a friend.

quote: "And you were content to let the Ramsey investigation proceed without these critical reports?" police attorney Theodore Halaby asked. Arndt answered yes.

She also said there could be more notes that were never transcribed!!!
quote: Police did not learn of Arndt's notes until she gave a March 8, 2000.

Then she actually has the gall to say that her reputation was damaged because her superiors didn't refute reports from press that she bungled the investigation

Arndt reitereated her claims that she thought her work at the scene was PHENOMENAL.

How can ANYTHING that Linda Arndt says clear up anything?

EDITED TO ADD: The above is the very reason why I don't think we can't take what Linda Arndt is saying as absolutely accurate. While it MAY be, the fact that she is making this claim 5 whole years AFTER the fact, and in an article that clearly shows she withheld reports deemed "critical" to the investigation, took them home, gave them to a friend & didn't inform ANYONE in LE about these notes until 5 years later.....well, I just don't see how we can really assume that what she says is true.

She states her conduct on the day of the crime scene was, in her own words, PHENOMENAL....yet she moved JonBenets body herself?????? More like phenomenally incompetent!!

 

[JBean]

So would I. It would be hard to miss.

In John's statements, and as well DOI...he never mentions the garrotte...when he's carrying her up the stairs, it's like he didn't notice it. I would imagine though the handle part of it would have been moving around.
It's odd, least to me, how he never seems to recollect about it...even in official statements.

Instead...he goes on about untying her hands...and that the knots are too tight...I believe only one wrist had a cord tied on it...and was loose enough for the hand to slip out of it.

Sounds like he was in shock to me.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

This doesn't clear anything up, IMO. The above link is a story where Linda Arndt admits to, quote "withholding notes taken during the first 2 weeks of the murder investigation, never filed a report on the contents of the notes, which a police attorney repeatedly described as "critical" to prosecuting the killer."

It goes on to say she never transcribed the notes, kept them in a locked desk drawer of her office, then took them home in 1999 after she quit. Then she gave them to a friend.

quote: "And you were content to let the Ramsey investigation proceed without these critical reports?" police attorney Theodore Halaby asked. Arndt answered yes.

She also said there could be more notes that were never transcribed!!!
quote: Police did not learn of Arndt's notes until she gave a March 8, 2000.

Then she actually has the gall to say that her reputation was damaged because her superiors didn't refute reports from press that she bungled the investigation

Arndt reitereated her claims that she thought her work at the scene was PHENOMENAL.

How can ANYTHING that Linda Arndt says clear up anything?

It's a messy case for sure...but as I recall, Patsy claimed she never wore the sweater in question in the basement...and I don't think the Ramsey team has ever had a real explanation for the fibers being where they all were (aside from a weak "innocent tranferrence" bit).

Patsy falling over Jonbenet doesn't explain the fibers in the basement...especially on the sticky side of the tape that was on Jonbenet's mouth.

 

[JBean]

My 78 year old father died at our home while I was at school teaching. My husband discovered his body, obviously dead for hours prior. My mother and brother soon arrived after the ambulance, and forced the paramedics to do CPR. Upon entering the ER and seeing my father, I even asked if they had tried to revive him. In retrospect, it was an obviously stupid question as he was blue. Even though rigor was obvious to any rational human, the shock of the death of a loved one fogs the brain and they often seem to react very irrationally.

Did Fleet White corraborate JR's claim to have removed the duct tape to do CPR/Mouth to Mouth? I have never seen copies of any interview of FW w/ LE...
Can someone direct me to one if they are available?

This is why I don't understand those that criticize JR for "contaminating" the crime scene. there are those here that would say they would have left the body untouched for the crime lab to look for evidence. i think it is just human nature to do exaclty what John Ramsey did when he found JBR.Touch, hope,and try what you know.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

Sounds like he was in shock to me.

30 minutes after the discovery though, he was ready to leave town. People might deal with things in different ways...but apparently he had few problems with leaving his daughter behind in Boulder.
If he hadn't been told different by the police...he would have gone to Atlanta that very day.

While on one hand one can try to dismiss every odd thing about John's behavior as shock induced...the other hand can say that John knew there was no reason to mess with the garrotte...and that most likely he did not even mess with the cord on her wrist. And as well...that he knew he was carrying a dead person...he didn't carry her like a person...he carried her like an item.