Evidence Against Patsy That Most People Have Never Read Before

[angelwngs]

"Is the concensus of RDI's that everything contained in Steve Thomas's book gospel as far as what occurred on that morning? This is a serious question--I don't know."
~~~~~~~~~

I don't even take the Gospel as Gospel.....

Any item considered as evidentiary fact would have to eliminate the probability of human error. When there are contradictions in established evidentiary facts, by multiple, credible witnesses and/or by multiple credible experts it voids or 'cancels out' the validity of the previously established evidence to the contrary.

Pertaining to the JonBenet Ramsey murder case, what undeniable evidence came into being as future evidence from 10:00 PM, December 25, 1996 to 5:30 AM, December 26, 1996, has withstood scrutiny, and remains undeniable evidence today, beyond the fact that JonBenet Ramsey was murdered?

I would venture to say, "Very little."

Preponderance of the Evidence... if it were not so sad, it would be laughable.

 

[rashomon]

Ah, gotcha.

Here is also an interesting snippet from Steve Thomas' book:

"Detective Arndt could not account for John Ramsey until about noon.
She found him reading some correspondence, and she incorrectly assumed
he had stepped out to get his mail. She was unaware that the house did
not have an exterior mail box and that the mail, came in through a front
door slot. Ramsey had been out of contact for over an hour. In coming
months, we realized that the time lapse would have allowed Ramsey plenty
of time to roam his house.
Arndt noted a marked change in Ramsey's attitude when she saw him
again. Whereas he had been calm and collected earlier, he now sat alone
in the dining room, preoccupied in thought, his leg bouncing nervously."

One wonders what he'd been up to while on his own, and what exactly changed his disposition...

I think John went down into the wine cellar to check if he had accidentally left behind an incriminating item. I don't think he would have dared to move JB's body from another room into the wine cellar with police already in the house - far too risky. Imo JB had already been put in the wine cellar by the Ramseys before they called the police.
It has been theorized that the poor innocent man had found the body, but said nothing because he knew it must have been Patsy. But why on earth should John have been so astute to conclude at once it must have been his wife who murdered their child? And he responded to that 'shocking discovery' by only being preoccupied in thought and nervously bouncing his leg? Bouncing one' leg is not a sign of shock - it is mostly a sign of impatience. And I'm convinced that, when nervously bouncing his leg, the following thoughts went through John Ramsey's head:

"The police have been in the house for four hours now and haven't found JB in the wine cellar yet. I never thought it possible that these idiots might not discover the body. How can I get them to find her?"

 

[JBean]

I think John went down into the wine cellar to check if he had accidentally left behind an incriminating item. I don't think he would have dared to move JB's body from another room into the wine cellar with police already in the house - far too risky. Imo JB had already been put in the wine cellar b the Ramseys.
It has been theorized that the poor innocent man had found the body, but said nothing because he knew it must have been Patsy. But why on earth should John have been so astute to conclude at once it must have been his wife who murdered their child? And he responded to that 'shocking discovery' by only being preoccupied in thought and nervously bouncing his leg? Bouncing one' leg is not a sign of shock - it is mostly a sign of impatience. And I'm convinced that, when nervously bouncing his leg, the following thoughts went through John Ramsey's head:

"The police have been in the house for four hours now and haven't found JB in the wine cellar yet. It never occured to me that these idiots might not discover the body. What are we going to do now?"

But why would JR expect LE to find her, if they all were operating under the assumption that she had been removed from the residence? I wonder how often ransom notes are left behind when the victim is still in the house? Does anyone have stat on that? I would guess it to be highly unusual.
Why not just report her missing in the morning, call the police and have her discovered straight away?I believe the whole point of the RN was to delay finding the body.

 

[rashomon]

But why would JR expect LE to find her, if they all were operating under the assumption that she had been removed from the residence? I wonder how often ransom notes are left behind when the victim is still in the house? Does anyone have stat on that? I would guess it to be highly unusual.
Why not just report her missing in the morning, call the police and have her discovered straight away?I believe the whole point of the RN was to delay finding the body.

I believe the ransom note was used by the panicked Ramseys not so much to delay finding the body, but to introduce an 'outside' element to direct the attention away from the parents as the perps. If their dead child was found straight away in their own home with a headbash and sexually assaulted, they probably would have been arrested on the spot.
And obviously John Ramsey wanted the body to be eventually found, for if not, he would not have made a bee-line to the wine cellar later where he 'discovered' the body.

 

[angelwngs]

John Ramsey's tapping his foot showing anxiety when waiting for something to happen...

~a call from the kidnappers when 'tomorrow' could have meant 26th or 27th, who knows...
~someone, anyone, to actually "DO SOMETHING" to find his daughter...
~his other two children to arrive safely in Boulder...
~the millions of decisions he had to make in order to insure his daughter's safe return. Had he made correct choices so far. What should he do next?
~why haven't those idiots found her yet

The tapping of the foot thing seems as male an issue of something one does when they can't physically do anything else, as does a female pumping her crossed leg while sitting or twirling her hair...

It could mean anything or nothing at all, IMO.

 

[JBean]

I believe the ransom note was used by the panicked Ramseys not so much to delay finding the body, but to introduce an 'outside' element to direct the attention away from the parents as the perps. If their dead child was found straight away in their own home with a headbash and sexually assaulted, they probably would have been arrested on the spot.
And obviously John Ramsey wanted the body to be eventually found, for if not, he would not have made a bee-line to the wine cellar later where he 'discovered' the body.

I just cannot buy into that theory no matter how hard I try. I have thought about it rethought about it and then thought about it some more, but it just doesn't hold water, IMO.

I do want to add that either which way, I appreciate your explanation

 

[rashomon]

I just cannot buy into that theory no matter how hard I try. I have thought about it rethought about it and then thought about it some more, but it just doesn't hold water, IMO.
I do want to add that either which way, I appreciate your explanation

Thank you JBean.
We'll have to agree to disagree, but that's what makes a discussion forum interesting.
Why do you think they wrote the note? Just to delay finding the body? They wrote a novel of a ransom note, throwing together multiple scenarios from the small foreign faction to clues to Access Graphics just because they wanted to delay finding the body? Not very likely imo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the feeling that you don't believe the Ramseys wrote the note.

 

[JBean]

Thank you JBean.
We'll have to agree to disagree, but that's what makes a discussion forum interesting.
Why do you think they wrote the note? Just to delay finding the body? They wrote a novel of a ransom note, throwing together multiple scenarios from the small foreign faction to clues to Access Graphics just because they wanted to delay finding the body? Not very likely imo.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I have the feeling that you don't believe the Ramseys wrote the note.

No, I do not believe the R's wrote the note.
I do believe in the intruder theory. But, just like the RDI theory, not everything works. I think that is what makes this a unique and discussion worthy case.
The thing about the RN is that it really makes no sense at all. So, IMO the only reasonable explanation is that the intruder wanted to put time between his escape and the discovery of the body. The more time that goes by without this being considered a murder, the colder the trail becomes. If you think of it in those terms, it was ingenious. A lot of time was spent trying to analyze this ridiculous note.The crime scene was not treated like a murder scene, but rather a kidnapping;including not thoruoghly searching the house.The intruder got how many hours head start? Imagine a a murdered body right in the house undiscovered.Why? Because there was a ransom note.Took a chance the house would not be searched and it paid off. The RN was the great detractor, IMO.

 

[angelwngs]

I just cannot buy into that theory no matter how hard I try. I have thought about it rethought about it and then thought about it some more, but it just doesn't hold water, IMO.

I do want to add that either which way, I appreciate your explanation

If you were forced to pick one, given the information you have on the case today, which would you choose? (If No other possibilities were allowed as choices.)

I. One Or Both Of R's are guilty of murder (and/or cover-up).
A. in a fit of rage
B. or to cover up an accident
1. with the involvement of BR
2. without the involvement of BR

II. An Intruder Did IT.
A. a delusional pedophile, multiple personality, obcessive compulsive, gender disorder, narcissist, bi-polar, etc., etc. etc.(any one of or all of the above + or - whatever)
B. someone who hated John Ramsey planed the crime to make it look as if
JR and PR did it. (planted all evidence, etc. but killer(s) left none of his/their own evidence)
1. exicuted crime alone or together w/accomplice(s).
2. hired hitman/hitmen.


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Today, "I , A or B w/ 1 or 2" makes more sense to me personally, than II. w/ either the "whacko nutcase did it theory" or the "the perfect staged, "Here's sticking it to you JR", murder scenerio" , but who knows.....

If you were forced to pick today... Which one?

 

[rashomon]

No, I do not believe the R's wrote the note.
I do believe in the intruder theory. But, just like the RDI theory, not everything works. I think that is what makes this a unique and discussion worthy case.
The thing about the RN is that it really makes no sense at all. So, IMO the only reasonable explanation is that the intruder wanted to put time between his escape and the discovery of the body. The more time that goes by without this being considered a murder, the colder the trail becomes. If you think of it in those terms, it was ingenious. A lot of time was spent trying to analyze this ridiculous note.The crime scene was not treated like a murder scene, but rather a kidnapping;including not thoruoghly searching the house.The intruder got how many hours head start? Imagine a a murdered body right in the house undiscovered.Why? Because there was a ransom note.Took a chance the house would not be searched and it paid off. The RN was the great detractor, IMO.

I agree that the RN was the great detractor, only that it was composed to work for the Ramseys.
Why would a murderer leave behind a ransom note in his own handwriting with which he would only have left behind incriminating evidence? There was no way for the murderer to know that the BP would not discover a body which was left in the house, so why not just get out of here?
And this killer must have felt very comfortable in the Ramsey home: after killing JB, he had the nerve to sit down and write that note (which surely took some time to compose it), without any fear of being detected? I can't buy that.
One could argue that Patsy left behind incriminating evidence too when she wrote the note, but someone of the Ramseys had to write the note - they couldn't very well have used the Ramseys' home computer for it. They needed that intruder/kidnapper element, and I also believe that they originally wanted to dump JB's body somewhere outside (which is why they wrote the note), but then didn't dare to do it for fear of being seen.

 

[JBean]

If you were forced to pick one, given the information you have on the case today, which would you choose? (If No other possibilities were allowed as choices.)

I. One Or Both Of R's are guilty of murder (and/or cover-up).
A. in a fit of rage
B. or to cover up an accident
1. with the involvement of BR
2. without the involvement of BR

II. An Intruder Did IT.
A. a delusional pedophile, multiple personality, obcessive compulsive, gender disorder, narcissist, bi-polar, etc., etc. etc.(any one of or all of the above + or - whatever)
B. someone who hated John Ramsey planed the crime to make it look as if
JR and PR did it. (planted all evidence, etc. but killer(s) left none of his/their own evidence)
1. exicuted crime alone or together w/accomplice(s).
2. hired hitman/hitmen.


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Today, "I , A or B w/ 1 or 2" makes more sense to me personally, than II. w/ either the "whacko nutcase did it theory" or the "the perfect staged, "Here's sticking it to you JR", murder scenerio" , but who knows.....

If you were forced to pick today... Which one?

heeehhe I'm not sure I can. I would defintiely go with option II. But beyond that I have a couple of my own theories that do not necessarily come under any of those headings. Interesting question though.

 

[angelwngs]

No, I do not believe the R's wrote the note.
I do believe in the intruder theory. But, just like the RDI theory, not everything works. I think that is what makes this a unique and discussion worthy case.
The thing about the RN is that it really makes no sense at all. So, IMO the only reasonable explanation is that the intruder wanted to put time between his escape and the discovery of the body. The more time that goes by without this being considered a murder, the colder the trail becomes. If you think of it in those terms, it was ingenious. A lot of time was spent trying to analyze this ridiculous note.The crime scene was not treated like a murder scene, but rather a kidnapping;including not thoruoghly searching the house.The intruder got how many hours head start? Imagine a a murdered body right in the house undiscovered.Why? Because there was a ransom note.Took a chance the house would not be searched and it paid off. The RN was the great detractor, IMO.

~~~~~~~~~~
What if??? ...The killer hated JR and planned the entire murder to make it look as if the Ramsey's did it? What if the murderer studied PR's handwriting and devised a note that was unlike any RN in history in order to make it look as if the it indeed was not an intruder. The note would serve a two-fold purpose; to delay search for the body allowing sufficient time for escape and relocation by the killer and it would help to make it look as if JR and Pr were guilty. This theory would require one 'jam up' murderer though..... (lucky, intelligent, knowledgable, having access to the R's life and items: made a key to fit their home, knew where everyting was in the home and planned to use everything from within to pull the murder off.)

This is so UNLIKELY.... isn't it.......

 

[rashomon]

If you were forced to pick one, given the information you have on the case today, which would you choose? (If No other possibilities were allowed as choices.)

I. One Or Both Of R's are guilty of murder (and/or cover-up).
A. in a fit of rage
B. or to cover up an accident
1. with the involvement of BR
2. without the involvement of BR

II. An Intruder Did IT.
A. a delusional pedophile, multiple personality, obcessive compulsive, gender disorder, narcissist, bi-polar, etc., etc. etc.(any one of or all of the above + or - whatever)
B. someone who hated John Ramsey planed the crime to make it look as if
JR and PR did it. (planted all evidence, etc. but killer(s) left none of his/their own evidence)
1. exicuted crime alone or together w/accomplice(s).
2. hired hitman/hitmen.


????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Today, "I , A or B w/ 1 or 2" makes more sense to me personally, than II. w/ either the "whacko nutcase did it theory" or the "the perfect staged, "Here's sticking it to you JR", murder scenerio" , but who knows.....

If you were forced to pick today... Which one?

I. A - not only today, but this has always been my theory.
I believe that Patsy killed JB in a rage and tried to cover it up with the help of John. But I am not so sure about what triggered the rage. Was it only wetting/soiling, or was there a far more sinister reason (sexual molestation) for Patsy's rage?

 

[Toltec]

If Patsy was so darned innocent, then why send LE a brand new blouse and pass if off as the one she wore that morning?

If Patsy was so darned innocent, then why deny the sweater was hers, instead suggesting that it was Priscilla Whites?

I can understand some fiber transfers from Patsy's sweater, like on JonBenet's clothes....but on the garrote, the knots, and the paint tray and duct tape??? Puleez!

 

[JBean]

I agree that the RN was the great detractor, only that it was composed to work for the Ramseys.
Why would a murderer leave behind a ransom note in his own handwriting with which he would only have left behind incriminating evidence?

I don't think he did leave incriminating evidence. It sure hasn't caused the arrest or conviction of anyone. Just a lot of nonsense.I don't think it worked for the Ramseys in any way shape or form.

There was no way for the murderer to know that the BP would not discover a body which was left in the house, so why not just get out of here?
And this killer must have felt very comfortable in the Ramsey home: after killing JB, he had the nerve to sit down and write that note (which surely took some time to compose it), without any fear of being detected? I can't buy that.

Like I said, i think they took the chance that LE would be more concerned with finding the child outside of the home than inside the home. Which, is how it went down. I do think that LE blew it, but at the same time, wouldn't you take an RN at face value as opposed to thinking your child was actually in your house? i would.
I don't know that this person felt comfortable in the Ramsey home in particular, as much as they really didn't care who's house they were in
We have a case here where the murderers stayed in the house all night long. Think about that. Why wouldn't they just murder the occupants and leave? Talk about running the risk of being caught.But they chose to stay, killed them one at a time.No neighbors heard anything, lots of houses per square inch, close together, nothing, even though they were there all night long. I am not comparing it to this case, except that some murderers are very confortable in any house.

One could argue that Patsy left behind incriminating evidence too when she wrote the note, but someone of the Ramseys had to write the note - they couldn't very well have used the Ramseys' home computer for it. They needed that intruder/kidnapper element, and I also believe that they originally wanted to dump JB's body somewhere outside (which is why they wrote the note), but then didn't dare to do it for fear of being seen.

This just doesn't make any sense to me at all.
.

ETA: I should add that I do think this was done professionally.

 

[HeartofTexas]

IMO, the simplest answer is the most likely answer.

First off, why in the world would you go to someone's house on Christmas day, of all days of the year, to do anything to anyone. It's truly the one day of the year when most families are at home.

Secondly, IF, and for me it's a big IF, you decided to commit some bizarre crime on Christmas day, you would have a purpose... a plan. So, you would either go to (1) rob, (2) rape or molest (3) kill, or (4) kidnap. But you would have a plan.

You wouldn't go to kidnap, write the ransom note, and then OOPS forget the body. And especially if you decided that the "war and peace" of ransom notes was in order. Why would anyone who went somewhere with the intent of kidnapping someone for money forget to take the body with them?

Conversely, if you went to molest someone, at what point would writing a ransom note cross your mind? And if you somehow in an obviously totally delusional moment decided a ransom note was a good choice, why wouldn't you just write something short and sweet like "have your daughter, want $200,000" etc. Why spend unnecessary time in a stranger's home?

And if you went to kill someone, you wouldn't think to write a ransom note.

Also, if you were really a kidnapper, why use terms like "a small foreign faction" when that is more movie talk than real life talk. Why ask for a pittance of money when you could just as easily ask for a million dollars? Why not just ask for the moon? And let's just say for the record that $118,000 sounded like a lot of money to you... just how much is each person going to get if we're really dealing with a small foreign faction? Are we talking $10,000 each, or $20,000 each?

To me it's just ludicrous that the ransom note was ever supposed to be real. It's too much of a joke to be real. It was written to throw suspicion away from the Ramsey's (IMO). Nothing else even begins to make sense. Again, JMHO.

 

[JBean]

Is there anyone that does think the RN was real?

 

[angelwngs]

IMO, the simplest answer is the most likely answer.

First off, why in the world would you go to someone's house on Christmas day, of all days of the year, to do anything to anyone. It's truly the one day of the year when most families are at home.

Christmas Day is the only reason that I ever I tried to see how someone who hated JR and meticulously planned the murder to look as if they did it could do it. What better time to do it to inflict the MOST pain than on Christmas Day? (But the meticulously planned intruder, who hated JR, in the end, seemed much more unlikley than a fit of rage or an accidental death and cover-up at the hands of the R's.


Secondly, IF, and for me it's a big IF, you decided to commit some bizarre crime on Christmas day, you would have a purpose... a plan. So, you would either go to (1) rob, (2) rape or molest (3) kill, or (4) kidnap. But you would have a plan.

If someone HATED JR and wanted to make it look as if the R's did it, then they did have a well exicuted plan and they pulled it off to a tee!

You wouldn't go to kidnap, write the ransom note, and then OOPS forget the body. And especially if you decided that the "war and peace" of ransom notes was in order. Why would anyone who went somewhere with the intent of kidnapping someone for money forget to take the body with them?

You would if you wanted to make it look as if no one could have pulled it off except the R's. The ransom note ties PR to the murder as the killer studied her penmanship and copied it. He made it sound as if it was dictated by JR to tie him to it. The 'pedo' cover up suggests that Jr was the one molesting JBR...etc so forth...

Conversely, if you went to molest someone, at what point would writing a ransom note cross your mind?

During the dead time before the family arrived home , and after you gathered, made and organized everything else you needed to sucessfully complete the crime.

And if you somehow in an obviously totally delusional moment decided a ransom note was a good choice, why wouldn't you just write something short and sweet like "have your daughter, want $200,000" etc. Why spend unnecessary time in a stranger's home?

Because the movie references, the acronym, the threats and hatred, the money amount all connected and pointed to Patsy's linguistics and handwriting and John's male knowledge of movie lines, his bonus amount for 1996, and the combination of every generic ransom note ever written which are typically written by males. They never intended to get a ransom. The note was used to make it look as if PR and JR killed JBR and covered the crime up

And if you went to kill someone, you wouldn't think to write a ransom note.

Unless you wanted to use it as a tool to put it off on the parents of your victim.

Also, if you were really a kidnapper, why use terms like "a small foreign faction" when that is more movie talk than real life talk. Why ask for a pittance of money when you could just as easily ask for a million dollars? Why not just ask for the moon? And let's just say for the record that $118,000 sounded like a lot of money to you... just how much is each person going to get if we're really dealing with a small foreign faction? Are we talking $10,000 each, or $20,000 each?

Already explained. BUT... and it is a big BUT... it would have taken a genius and a lucky human, IMO to pull something like this off... I don't think it happened this way...but it was a possibility that I needed to consider if I considered every imaginable scenerio that I could.


To me it's just ludicrous that the ransom note was ever supposed to be real. It's too much of a joke to be real. It was written to throw suspicion away from the Ramsey's (IMO). Nothing else even begins to make sense. Again, JMHO.

I agree 100%. I'm afraid that almost all of the 'facts' of the case point to the probability that the R's did it and tried to cover it up. The ONLY other imaginable scenerio that I can possibly make happen even in my wildest imagination, is that someone hated JR and shaved their body top to bottom, meticulously planned and exicuted the murder perfectly in order to make it obvious to everyone that the Ramsey's did it. And if anyone genuinely believes any murderer could be that good at planting evidence, copying handwriting, and successfully pulling this thing off that way, I have some beachfront property in Arizona for sale.

 

[K. Taylor]

The ONLY other imaginable scenerio that I can possibly make happen even in my wildest imagination, is that someone hated JR and shaved their body top to bottom, meticulously planned and exicuted the murder perfectly in order to make it obvious to everyone that the Ramsey's did it.

And that person would've had to have an intimate knowledge of the Ramseys' lives and their home and thus be known to the Ramseys. But I've yet to see an IDIer pinpoint anyone close to the Rams would could have feasibly done this: the intruders are always strangers, like Helgoth or Karr.

 

[SleuthingSleuth]

But why would JR expect LE to find her, if they all were operating under the assumption that she had been removed from the residence? I wonder how often ransom notes are left behind when the victim is still in the house? Does anyone have stat on that? I would guess it to be highly unusual.
Why not just report her missing in the morning, call the police and have her discovered straight away?I believe the whole point of the RN was to delay finding the body.

So...our intrepid intruder felt absolutely certain that no Ramsey family members or friends would happen to look in the wine cellar? According to John's account of finding the body...I don't believe she was even hidden in any manner.

I myself...in the same situation (kidnapping), would have ended up going through every room in my house in the effort to find something of worth.

When it became clear no ransom call was going to come, the detective on the scene told John to search the house in a thorough manner...and John was the one who found the body.
By John's account, Fleet White should have found the body when he peered into the wine cellar earlier in the day.

Such an intruder is a big gambler...one would think he'd put the body somewhere where it at least would be hidden from view if his big plan was to delay the body being found.