Evidence for "Dead body in the Damn Car"

[manatee]

The defense will probably argue that the same dog who hit on the rear fender on the drivers side, is one of the same cadaver dogs that LE used in searching the wooded area without success. A somewhat weak arguement I agree, but I'm pretty sure the defense will make it. The defense will also argue the amount of false positives that cadaver dogs have, and they do have some false positives. Only one juror needs to think the cadaver dog possibly made a false positive. moo

I'm sure (i'm not an expert on cadaver dogs) that it is possible for a dog to have a false negative (not finding a cadaver smell when one should be found) but I bet it's rare or less likely for them to find a false positive (cadaver smell when there is none). Please correct me if I'm wrong. Much like a pregnancy test. It could be you are pregnant but the test fails to detect it but if it says you are pregnant you certainly are!....something like that.
MM or Jbean if you can post the cadaver dog experts testimony (pre-trial hearing) that would rock my world today. I have zero idea on how to do that. Thanks!

 

[RevCrim]

Here's my problem with "A dead body in the car- but not my granddaughter" (Not quoted)

1) GA knew is was a decomp odor- he admitted to it
2) Ca knew is was a decomp odor- she's a nurse - plus she told it on the 911 call.
3) CA sounded like she ordered GA to agree it was pizza-
4) CA & GA cleaned the car and some items in it to get rid of the decomp odor

Now - before they knew it was Caylee's decomp- they were putting KC down to LE-
Why- Did they believe she was involved with someone's murder and they were trying to cover for her? At that time was it okay to send her off to jail and they would get Caylee-

By July 25th to 27th, CA's was in a different attitude, and trying to steer GA down a different path-Pizza odor-changing their stories along with KC

So what happened between July 15th to the 25th to change their minds?

KC tries to convinced everyone Caylee is alive-
CA obviously, as per the jail videos- doesn't believe her one bit

Was this when they realized Caylee was no longer alive- and that meant they not only lost Caylee- but now will also lose KC permanently?

If none of this makes sense- then whose body did they think was in the car and why did they help to cover it up, before calling the police? Did CA and GA go back to work as an excuse to allow the car time to dry from the cleaners they used, and to air it out a while, before calling police?
The very fact that they did not mention the car odor again once LE arrived, was it then, that they realized it was possibly Caylee in the trunk?

And lastly, why did CA call LE at all? Was it only because her name was on the car and she didn't want to be involved in whatever KC was involved with?
Or, was it let KC sink or swim, as long as they got Caylee?
When KC couldn't produce Caylee, after telling her mom we'll go get her in the morning, did CA know right then, the truth? Had KC threatened to kill Caylee before letting CA have her, when they fought on the 15th, and CA knowing how KC really was, knew she did exactly that?
I guess my main question is- when did it go from a dead body to pizza and why?

 

[reeseeva]

As far as the trash bag creating the smell, I'm sure it would be easily replicated. The SA could do a test with exactly the same contents, and empty containers, left in a trunk for 2+ weeks, and report these findings, much like a local news station did with a pizza (although there was none originally) left in a trunk, in the same weather conditions, which basically just dried up.

To me, this would be a fairly easy exercise to present at trial, to challenge any belief that it could be the trash.

 

[manatee]

In my opinion, there are some fair indications that Caylee’s remains may have been in the trunk. There also seems to be some fair indications that perhaps this isn’t so.

The strongest indication seems to be the statements made by many about the smell in that trunk. Many who have talked about the smell have had the opportunity to be around the smell of death. We know for certain the smell was horrendous. We know many who had the opportunity to smell the trunk thought it could be the smell of death. There was very little physical proof of human decomposition found in the trunk, in the evidence we know of.
There was also a white trash bag with several food containers and maggots that had been in the trunk. Some (probably just me LOL) think that the contents in the white trash bag sitting in the trunk, for 2 ½ weeks may have caused the odor everyone talks about. So, it seems that the strongest circumstantial evidence that Caylee’s remains were in that trunk would be the smell in the trunk. I can agree on that.
The cadaver dog that hit on the drivers side rear fender seems to be a second strong indication that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk. Cadaver dogs have a very low percentage of false positives, but they do sometimes have a false positive.
The forensic reports, serological, entomology, dna, and air sample confirm the possibility that Caylee’s remains may have been in the trunk. In each of those reports the final conclusion is that there is decomp in the trunk that COULD be of human origin, and also the decomp COULD be from another decompositional event.
The white trash bag that had possibly been contaminated from sitting in a dumpster for 30 hours must be considered. Most of the entomology report stemmed from this bag.
Although Cindy’s 911 call alerted LE to the smell in the trunk, and one officer was in the car even before YM arrived on the scene, LE did not secure the car until around 7pm on the 16th. This could lead some (again probably only me LOL) to believe, that LE did not find the smell in the car important enough to deem it a crime scene and secure it. This is another reason I question the validity of the smell of death in the car. It would seem the proper protocol, to immediately secure a vehicle that had the unmistakable smell of death, when there was a missing child report.

So, if I’m on the jury, and the result of my decision could result in someone’s execution, the question is, am I certain beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee’s remains were in this trunk.
1. The cadaver dog hit, but they occasionally have false positives.
2. A number of people thought the smell of death was in the car, but there was a trash bag in the trunk that may have caused the smell.
3. The forensic reports say its possible, but could be from something else.
4. The police didn’t seem to initially treat the smell of death as high priority.

For me, I think there is a strong possibility that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk, but I cannot condemn someone to be executed, while I still have what seem to me to be reasonable doubts. Therefore, I can’t agree beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk. As always my entire post is moo

Great post and I appreciate your coherent well thought out discussion and point of view. however, the fact is that the smell happened around the same time Caylee was murdered. What are the chances of something like this happening by accident? What bad luck for KC if this is the case. For me, the fact is that Caylee was murdered around the same time the smell (that could be human decomp) happened to that car. Gee, i don't think you have to put too much together to come up with the conclusion...there was a "dead body in the dam car" and unfortunately for Caylee, it was Caylee. MOO

 

[manatee]

As far as the trash bag creating the smell, I'm sure it would be easily replicated. The SA could do a test with exactly the same contents, and empty containers, left in a trunk for 2+ weeks, and report these findings, much like a local news station did with a pizza (although there was none originally) left in a trunk, in the same weather conditions, which basically just dried up.

To me, this would be a fairly easy exercise to present at trial, to challenge any belief that it could be the trash.

Good point. actually, IRC, the lab also tested out a pizza. correct?

 

[21merc7]

I don't think anyone need worry about trash smelling like human decomp. It just is not possible. Not even a dead squirrel (dare I say) or the dead rat in the road smell like human decomp. Bacon or sausage would not either, smoke and salt cured, and would never create human decomp smell. An entire untreated pig, might come close, but that is just speculation.

ETA: Rotten food and garbage smells like rotten food and garbage. If you have ever been near a restaurant's dumpster in summer, you will know what I mean, and it does not smell like human decomp. It just smells like garbage. Not even smelly rotten potatoes come close, and we all know that smell.

 

[MyTinkieGirl]

The following are snips from the report that I posted a link for in my two previous posts.

Air Sampling Summary:

Out of the 24 compounds detected in the Flroida trunk sample which did not overlap with known or possible gasoline constituents, 16 (67%) known to be associated with HUMAN DECOMPOSITIONAL events were detected in the odor signature from the Florida trunk carpet sample whose source could not be potentially linked to any of the controls which were analyzed. ~ page 5 of report

Conclusions:

The correlations between the following techniques:

1. LIBS- showing elevated elements typically associated with HUMAN DECOMPOSITION;

2. VFA analysis- showing early PMI;

3. Chemical Extractions- showing adipocere ratios consistent with HUMAN DECOMPOSITION and the presense of acetic acid;

4. The comparison to what is known about the decomposition of HUMAN and animal remains;

5. Indications of early decomposition and the presence of the five key major compounds associated with HUMAN DECOMPOSITION (Primarily the sulfar containing compounds);

6. Montana positive control sample;

indicate that a portion of the total odor signature identified in the Florida vehicle trunk is CONSISTENT with an early decompositional even that could be of HUMAN origin. ~ page 16 of report

capped words done by me
ETA adding link again http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19801995.pdf

ITA...AND, again, my favorite piece of evidence from the trunk....the LIBS data.....http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5802646/Casey-Anthony-LIBS-report.... as shown in the results....actual VISUAL results tested against a "control" sample of carpet.....the difference in the level of nutrient rich compounds ID'd from the trunk carpet sample is phenomenal....and, this article, IMO, is a veratable gold mine of info....

http://schools.fwps.org/tj/decker/decomp/110108.pdf

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

I'm sure (i'm not an expert on cadaver dogs) that it is possible for a dog to have a false negative (not finding a cadaver smell when one should be found) but I bet it's rare or less likely for them to find a false positive (cadaver smell when there is none). Please correct me if I'm wrong. Much like a pregnancy test. It could be you are pregnant but the test fails to detect it but if it says you are pregnant you certainly are!....something like that.
MM or Jbean if you can post the cadaver dog experts testimony (pre-trial hearing) that would rock my world today. I have zero idea on how to do that. Thanks!

I'm not a cadaver dog expert either. IIRC cadaver dogs alerted twice in the Anthony backyard, the results that followed were negative. If this is true then the cadaver dogs involved in this case are 3 alerts, two negative results and one strong but possibly negative alert. In my opinion, this leaves room for reasonable doubt in regards to cadaver dogs.

 

[BeanE]

In my opinion, there are some fair indications that Caylee’s remains may have been in the trunk. There also seems to be some fair indications that perhaps this isn’t so.

The strongest indication seems to be the statements made by many about the smell in that trunk. Many who have talked about the smell have had the opportunity to be around the smell of death. We know for certain the smell was horrendous. We know many who had the opportunity to smell the trunk thought it could be the smell of death. There was very little physical proof of human decomposition found in the trunk, in the evidence we know of.
There was also a white trash bag with several food containers and maggots that had been in the trunk. Some (probably just me LOL) think that the contents in the white trash bag sitting in the trunk, for 2 ½ weeks may have caused the odor everyone talks about. So, it seems that the strongest circumstantial evidence that Caylee’s remains were in that trunk would be the smell in the trunk. I can agree on that.
The cadaver dog that hit on the drivers side rear fender seems to be a second strong indication that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk. Cadaver dogs have a very low percentage of false positives, but they do sometimes have a false positive.
The forensic reports, serological, entomology, dna, and air sample confirm the possibility that Caylee’s remains may have been in the trunk. In each of those reports the final conclusion is that there is decomp in the trunk that COULD be of human origin, and also the decomp COULD be from another decompositional event.
The white trash bag that had possibly been contaminated from sitting in a dumpster for 30 hours must be considered. Most of the entomology report stemmed from this bag.
Although Cindy’s 911 call alerted LE to the smell in the trunk, and one officer was in the car even before YM arrived on the scene, LE did not secure the car until around 7pm on the 16th. This could lead some (again probably only me LOL) to believe, that LE did not find the smell in the car important enough to deem it a crime scene and secure it. This is another reason I question the validity of the smell of death in the car. It would seem the proper protocol, to immediately secure a vehicle that had the unmistakable smell of death, when there was a missing child report.

So, if I’m on the jury, and the result of my decision could result in someone’s execution, the question is, am I certain beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee’s remains were in this trunk.
1. The cadaver dog hit, but they occasionally have false positives.
2. A number of people thought the smell of death was in the car, but there was a trash bag in the trunk that may have caused the smell.
3. The forensic reports say its possible, but could be from something else.
4. The police didn’t seem to initially treat the smell of death as high priority.

For me, I think there is a strong possibility that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk, but I cannot condemn someone to be executed, while I still have what seem to me to be reasonable doubts. Therefore, I can’t agree beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk. As always my entire post is moo

Excellent post, TDA. Very well presented.

Although we have reached some differing conclusions regarding these matters, I am understanding more and more how and why you have reached your conclusions, and I appreciate very much your sharing them.

You have prompted me to research some things I may not otherwise have, and I have learned from that research.

Thank you again.
BeanE

 

[Intermezzo]

If the smell originated from Tony's garbage, why was it necessary for KC to invent the "two dead squirrels" story?

Someone correct me if I am wrong , but iirc the squirrel story was only told to Amy.

I don't recall Casey telling or texting TL or anyone other than Amy about the "dead squirrel smell" in her car.

 

[Intermezzo]

Thanks...I was kinda making that very point (obviously not that clearly-lol). We're now rating smells...unbelieveable.

BBM
My thoughts exactly :doh:

 

[manatee]

I'm not a cadaver dog expert either. IIRC cadaver dogs alerted twice in the Anthony backyard, the results that followed were negative. If this is true then the cadaver dogs involved in this case are 3 alerts, two negative results and one strong but possibly negative alert. In my opinion, this leaves room for reasonable doubt in regards to cadaver dogs.

I think we need to locate the transcript or the video for clarification. however, what you are stating is what JB stated in court and on NG. This was fully explained that the the dogs did not have a false positive at all. It is still very possible that Caylee's body WAS in the backyard where the dogs hit (so that's the scent they hit on)...just because they did not find her body does not mean that she was not there at some point. So it is not correct to say that the dogs made a mistake in the backyard. Both dogs also hit on the back of the trunk and the body was not there any longer either. hopefully i'm clear on this.

So to clarify what I think your point of view is:
You are not sure that the smell of the car was a dead body. You feel it may just be a strange, bad luck coincidence, that this bad smell (which cadaver dogs, lab test, and experienced humans have thought was human decomposition) happened around the same time Caylee was murdered and disappeared. KC just has really bad luck then...Her daughter is stolen by Zanny and for some strange reason her car starts smelling like a dead body. Is this what you want a reasonable jury to believe instead? All a bad coincidence?

 

[LambChop]

I'm not a cadaver dog expert either. IIRC cadaver dogs alerted twice in the Anthony backyard, the results that followed were negative. If this is true then the cadaver dogs involved in this case are 3 alerts, two negative results and one strong but possibly negative alert. In my opinion, this leaves room for reasonable doubt in regards to cadaver dogs.

BBM: Not sure I understand what you mean by results were negative. One of the dogs made a positive hit in the police garage. The backyard hits were in dirt areas as the pictures show red flags. I don't recall seeing any reports that those areas were negative.

In the 400 page documents released early on the police report of 7/17/08 states the dog, Gerus had a positive hit on the car for human decomposition. That is a fact!!

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Great post and I appreciate your coherent well thought out discussion and point of view. however, the fact is that the smell happened around the same time Caylee was murdered. What are the chances of something like this happening by accident? What bad luck for KC if this is the case. For me, the fact is that Caylee was murdered around the same time the smell (that could be human decomp) happened to that car. Gee, i don't think you have to put too much together to come up with the conclusion...there was a "dead body in the dam car" and unfortunately for Caylee, it was Caylee. MOO

Thanks.
I respect your opinion, and the opinion of the many who totally agree with you. I completely understand this point of view. Its logical no doubt. This opinion has looked at the facts, and come to the conclusion based on those facts that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk. When it comes to actual facts, and anyone’s personal interpretations of those facts resulting in the personal opinion. I see no problems there. It is simply one’s opinion.

Where a problem lies in my opinion, is when the media spins a fact, or someone states an opinion as fact, or a rumor is stated as a fact, and one formulates their opinion based on this. There opinion is based on media spin, others opinions, and rumors.

I know, I know, sorry, I’m preaching to the choir. Here at WS taking the media hype with a grain of salt, disregarding the rumors, basing opinions on facts is SOP. I’m honored to be a part of this community. As always my entire post is moo

 

[Rlaub44]

I'm not a cadaver dog expert either. IIRC cadaver dogs alerted twice in the Anthony backyard, the results that followed were negative. If this is true then the cadaver dogs involved in this case are 3 alerts, two negative results and one strong but possibly negative alert. In my opinion, this leaves room for reasonable doubt in regards to cadaver dogs.

Good morning TDA.

Do you remember where you read that the yard hits had results that were "negative"? The problem I see with that statement is that the dogs may very well have smelled the elements of human decomp in those areas, yet forensic testing might not be sufficiently able to isolate those same elements from soil. I'm not sure.

It wouldn't then be a definite that the dogs had a false hit; simply that their trained sense of smell is able to locate traces of those compounds that scientific tests cannot verify with enough certainty.

 

[manatee]

Good morning TDA.

Do you remember where you read that the yard hits had results that were "negative"? The problem I see with that statement is that the dogs may very well have smelled the elements of human decomp in those areas, yet forensic testing might not be sufficiently able to isolate those same elements from soil. I'm not sure.

It wouldn't then be a definite that the dogs had a false hit; simply that their trained sense of smell is able to locate traces of those compounds that scientific tests cannot verify with enough certainty.

I think you are exactly right. I'm off to search for the videos of the experts and the testimony given at the pre-trial. If anyone finds it first, please post!

 

[Tulessa]

Well then he should say human decomp when he is on the stand. IMO

He did & I will refer to Jbean's post.

No he did not say this exactly. he did say that the car smelled like decomposition .This was his opinion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLb0RYC1q5o

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Good morning TDA.

Do you remember where you read that the yard hits had results that were "negative"? The problem I see with that statement is that the dogs may very well have smelled the elements of human decomp in those areas, yet forensic testing might not be sufficiently able to isolate those same elements from soil. I'm not sure.

It wouldn't then be a definite that the dogs had a false hit; simply that their trained sense of smell is able to locate traces of those compounds that scientific tests cannot verify with enough certainty.

I will try to find the cadaver dog reports. I know where to look for the report of where the cadaver dog hit on the car.
I do not know where to look for the reports on the cadaver dog hits in the backyard, or ensuing reports of those results. Any hints in the right direction here would be appreciated.
So I will backtrack on my comments about the dogs alerting in the backyard until we have confirmation that this happened. If it is confirmed that we find hits, and no results are found, then either opinion can speculate what those results may be.
I have no problem taking these out of the equation because I don't have a doc in front of me.

 

[LambChop]

I think between the positive hits from the dogs, the fact that GA, CA, SB, LE all identified the smell, and were all experienced to do so, the fact that an actual body was found that could not have WALKED to the remains site, plus the forensic reports is more than enough to come to the conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a "damn dead body" in the car.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

BBM: Not sure I understand what you mean by results were negative. One of the dogs made a positive hit in the police garage. The backyard hits were in dirt areas as the pictures show red flags. I don't recall seeing any reports that those areas were negative.

In the 400 page documents released early on the police report of 7/17/08 states the dog, Gerus had a positive hit on the car for human decomposition. That is a fact!!

Thank you. You are correct. Gerus had a positive hit. I am not saying this is a negative. I am saying that cadaver dogs occasionally have false positives. I think this is one of the strongest things that point to the possibility that Caylee's remains may have been in the trunk. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that before.