Evidence for "Dead body in the Damn Car"

[cyberborg]

Hey, I don't know if the meat and cheese got sent to the Fbi. Or anything from the trashbag. Do you?[snip]

Do not worry. I heard that we are going to get another note from a prisoner to explain the rumored meat and cheese that was supposedly in the trunk.

It is getting too much like Phantom of the Opera.......

"Here, I have a note...

Let me see it!

Please!

"Gentlemen, I have now sent you several notes of the most amiable nature, detailing how my murder case is to be run. You have not followed my instructions.

I shall give you one last chance...

I shall watch the trial from my normal seat in Defense Box Five, which will be kept empty for me.

Should these commands be ignored, a disaster beyond your imagination will occur.

I remain, Gentlemen, Your obedient servant, K.C.""

 

[Trapshooter]

Hi LambChop

That's true, but I can't see Casey being interested in One Tree Hill. Doesn't seem her style to me at all.

Snipped

What makes you think One Tree Hill isn't her style? How would you know what her style is? :waitasec:

 

[RR0004]

Do not worry. I heard that we are going to get another note from a prisoner to explain the rumored meat and cheese that was supposedly in the trunk.

It is getting too much like Phantom of the Opera.......

"Here, I have a note...

Let me see it!

Please!

"Gentlemen, I have now sent you several notes of the most amiable nature, detailing how my murder case is to be run. You have not followed my instructions.

I shall give you one last chance...

I shall watch the trial from my normal seat in Defense Box Five, which will be kept empty for me.

Should these commands be ignored, a disaster beyond your imagination will occur.

I remain, Gentlemen, Your obedient servant, K.C.""

OMG! Too funny...and as this is probably my favorite play of all time...I so get this!

 

[flourish]

You coul be right about that, but it was Casey doing the cooking I believe. Would be just like her to chuck a large piece of unwanted meat in the garbage, too bone idle to chop it up & put it in the insinkerator. She wouldn't have worried, she hadn't paid for it. She's even too irresponsible to remember to put the garbage in the dumpster.

Think I am still on topic posting about possible evidence of decomposition in the car.

I can't picture Casey cooking actual meat, really, just over-processed Tyson nuggets or something...I certainly can't imagine her trimming the fat and de-boning anything, either.

I think I'm gonna go ahead and follow RR004's lead and revisit the food in the car issue when and if there is actual evidence of there being a food in the car issue.

The death banded hair is huge for me. I am confident that the scientists of our time are able to distinguish between virgin toddler hair and processed adult hair and hair that came free from living scalp flesh and hair that came free from decaying scalp flesh (gross, sorry).

 

[InspectorGadget]

Snipped

What makes you think One Tree Hill isn't her style? How would you know what her style is? :waitasec:

Hi Trapshooter

I have never watched One Tree Hill but I thought it looked pretty trashy. Comparing with photobucket & the Myspaces of people connected to her it doesn't look to me the kind of thing they or she would go for. I know she watched CSI & Lost but I don't watch those either so just ny impression, I could easily be wrong and way off topic in any case!!

 

[knt]

(snipped)

Hi LambChop

That's true, but I can't see Casey being interested in One Tree Hill. Doesn't seem her style to me at all.

IIRC , One Tree Hill was listed by KC as one of her favorite shows on her dating site profile.

 

[cyberborg]

You coul be right about that, but it was Casey doing the cooking I believe. Would be just like her to chuck a large piece of unwanted meat in the garbage, too bone idle to chop it up & put it in the insinkerator. She wouldn't have worried, she hadn't paid for it. She's even too irresponsible to remember to put the garbage in the dumpster.

Think I am still on topic posting about possible evidence of decomposition in the car.

With respect this is just pure speculation, right? An Urban Myth?

The only inference that we have that there was any waste food is from HL when on NG and no samples were taken, no documentation, no testing, he didn't even return to complete his examination.

So based on an inference we are running [again] with meat and cheese and trying to scale it from trace (an ounce) to a larger and larger amount that we 'speculate' someone dumped in the trash.

There is no basis in discovery documentation or reported lab tests for this speculation. This thread has become the Rumor Thread.

We have already discussed and concluded over and over about what caused the dead body smell in the trunk --- and tests have even been performed with pizza!!!!!

Does everyone agree that we are flogging a dead horse with some desperation -- the Defense badly needs the trunk to be rotten potatoes. It is just an Urban Myth.

It was a precious little two year old named Caylee if you care to read the whole thread and not exclude the facts along the way.

The wheels on the trunk go round and round, round and round, round and round.

 

[christee]

Question for the experts: Do maggots smell like a dead body after they have eaten salami and velvetta? Or would they smell like pizza?

I'm not an expert but from my experience I have to say that a dead body smells nothing remotely like anything edible...unless you are a vulture.

 

[Jolynna]

There was no meat or any other food product in the trash bag.

From Gerardo Bloise's report,

page 22 http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf
Monday, August 25, 2008

At approximately 1100 hours I met with ASL Michael Vincent regarding a white trash bag with blue handle which said bag contained several items.(Art #1, Item #H-51-976)

ASL Vincent asked if inside the trash bag contained pizza or any type of meat. I informed ASL Vincent that when I checked inside the trash bag on July 16, 2008, I did not find any pizza or any type of meat.After said conversation, ASL Vincent instructed me to go to the Evidence Unit and retrieve art # 1 in order to re-check the trash bag again. At approximately 1153 hours I arrived at the Evidence Unit and I collected a sealed box containing the trash bag. At approximately 1300 hours I arrived at the Forensics lab and proceeded to open the sealed box.

Myself and ASL Vincent re-inspected the trash bag. No pieces of pizza or meat were found.

TRASH BAG INVENTORY

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20321119/detail.html

PICTURES OF TRASH FROM THE TRASH BAG http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/20320624/detail.html

E-MAIL BETWEEN OCSO AND ARPAD VASS ABOUT THE TRASH:

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:30 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,

I check the trash that was in the vehicle there was no meat products in the trash. There were pieces of a pizza box and other food containers. I will be emailing you a picture of the items first thing tomorrow.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:33 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**




Mike, not sure how I got that there was a pizza in the trunk – sorry about that one, but can you send me an itemized list of stuff that was in the trunk at the time the car was searched? Also, were the maggots on the pizza box?? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:40 PM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

The pizza story came from the mother, who told reporters the smell was from pizza in the trunk. A local news station left a half of pizza in a trunk for seven days, there results were no smell, no maggots, just dried out pizza. I will send you the list along with the pictures.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 12:40 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Cc: Yuri.Melich@ocfl.net
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,
Attached is a list of items that was in the trash bag in the vehicle. Also attached are pictures of the items. If there is anything else I can help you with please let me know.


ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ll#post4081938

On
FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 2008
Atapproximately 1018 hours the following persons arrived at the Forensics office;

1.Dr.Henry C. Lee,
2. Mr.Jose Baez fromthe Baez law Firm Defense Attorney.
3. Mr.Edward E. Phlegar fromthe Baez Law firm.

and met for a conference meeting with this investigator and the following parties named below;

1. Assistant Squad Leader Michael Vincent from Forensic Unit.
2.Sargeant john Allen from Missing Person.
3. Detective Corporal yuri Melich from Missing Person.
4.Detective Corporal William Edwards from homicide unit.
5. Special Agent Nick SAvage from the FBI.

met and viewed items from the white trash bag. page 34 http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf

Lee wasn't denied access. He wasn't restrictred to viewing pictures. He found hairs in the garbage. But not meat or food.

 

[cyberborg]

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:​

ETA: Jolynna we need factual posts such as yours and others to become reference posts that we can link to easily. Can post these to Mythbusters to debunk?

 

[JBean]

:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:​

ETA: Jolynna we need factual posts such as yours and others to become reference posts that we can link to easily. Can post these to Mythbusters to debunk?

Funny you should mention. I just copied Jolynna's post to the mythbuster thread. I wish people would post on that thread more often.

 

[cyberborg]

Funny you should mention. I just copied Jolynna's post to the mythbuster thread. I wish people would post on that thread more often.

Thank you!!!!!!

There are many posts on this thread that are truly priceless and could save WS hours of frustration and wasted time from posters re-covering old ground and knock rumors down with one link.

 

[JBean]

Thank you!!!!!!

There are many posts on this thread that are truly priceless and could save WS hours of frustration and wasted time from posters re-covering old ground and knock rumors down with one link.

It would be great if people would post the myths that are busted up in that thread regularly. What I had hoped was that when facts are challenged we could just link posts from the mythbusters thread.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

There was no meat or any other food product in the trash bag.

From Gerardo Bloise's report,

page 22 http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf
Monday, August 25, 2008

At approximately 1100 hours I met with ASL Michael Vincent regarding a white trash bag with blue handle which said bag contained several items.(Art #1, Item #H-51-976)

ASL Vincent asked if inside the trash bag contained pizza or any type of meat. I informed ASL Vincent that when I checked inside the trash bag on July 16, 2008, I did not find any pizza or any type of meat.After said conversation, ASL Vincent instructed me to go to the Evidence Unit and retrieve art # 1 in order to re-check the trash bag again. At approximately 1153 hours I arrived at the Evidence Unit and I collected a sealed box containing the trash bag. At approximately 1300 hours I arrived at the Forensics lab and proceeded to open the sealed box

Myself and ASL Vincent re-inspected the trash bag. No pieces of pizza or meat were found.

TRASH BAG INVENTORY

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/20321119/detail.html

PICTURES OF TRASH FROM THE TRASH BAG http://www.wftv.com/slideshow/news/20320624/detail.html

E-MAIL BETWEEN OCSO AND ARPAD VASS ABOUT THE TRASH:

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:30 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,

I check the trash that was in the vehicle there was no meat products in the trash. There were pieces of a pizza box and other food containers. I will be emailing you a picture of the items first thing tomorrow.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:33 PM
To: Vincent, Michael
Subject: RE: **Exempt**




Mike, not sure how I got that there was a pizza in the trunk – sorry about that one, but can you send me an itemized list of stuff that was in the trunk at the time the car was searched? Also, were the maggots on the pizza box?? Arpad

Arpad A. Vass, Ph.D.

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:40 PM
To: 'Vass, Arpad Alexander'
Subject: RE: **Exempt**

The pizza story came from the mother, who told reporters the smell was from pizza in the trunk. A local news station left a half of pizza in a trunk for seven days, there results were no smell, no maggots, just dried out pizza. I will send you the list along with the pictures.

ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent, Michael (OCSO)
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 12:40 PM
To: Vass, Arpad Alexander
Cc: Yuri.Melich@ocfl.net
Subject: **Exempt**

Doc,
Attached is a list of items that was in the trash bag in the vehicle. Also attached are pictures of the items. If there is anything else I can help you with please let me know.


ASL/CSI Michael J. Vincent
OCSO/Forensics Unit

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...ll#post4081938

On
FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 2008
Atapproximately 1018 hours the following persons arrived at the Forensics office;

1.Dr.Henry C. Lee,
2. Mr.Jose Baez fromthe Baez law Firm Defense Attorney.
3. Mr.Edward E. Phlegar fromthe Baez Law firm.

and met for a conference meeting with this investigator and the following parties named below;

1. Assistant Squad Leader Michael Vincent from Forensic Unit.
2.Sargeant john Allen from Missing Person.
3. Detective Corporal yuri Melich from Missing Person.
4.Detective Corporal William Edwards from homicide unit.
5. Special Agent Nick SAvage from the FBI.

met and viewed items from the white trash bag. page 34 http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf

Lee wasn't denied access. He wasn't restrictred to viewing pictures. He found hairs in the garbage. But not meat or food.

Thanks for putting all that info into a single post.

In light of the facts established in your post, it brings several questions to my mind. At some point the maggots must have eaten any and all traces of whatever decomp remains that were ever in the trunk, except for a bit of butyric acid scrapings, and then migrated into the white trash bag to feast on the decomposing fatty substance like Adipocere.


http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/body_changes/grave_wax.htm

Adipocere begins to form within a month. If a body is readily accessible to insects Adipocere is unlikely to form.

http://deathonline.net/decomposition/corpse_fauna/flies/maggots.htm

Maggots can consume 60% of a human body in a week.

There were enough maggots in the white bag for GA to hear them making a popping sound. Therefore, it stands to reason there had to be some food source within the white bag. The black tray in the pictures you provided is an area where some of these maggots were found, so at some point in time there had to be a food source within that black tray, at least it is likely there was.
In my interpretation of the entomologist report, the fatty decomposing substance like Adipocere is NOT Adipocere and it seems Adipocere is unlikely to form if it is readily accessible to insects (which the above link seems to indicate). Also the link states Adipocere begins to form within a month, so yes 2.6 days does fit within a month, although it does seem unlikely it would form with insects having access, and in such a short period of time.
Since maggots can consume a large amount of food (for example more than half a human), in a weeks time, and we know there were enough maggots in the white trash bag to make a popping sound, do we not have to assume at one point in time, there simply had to be food items in that white trash bag?

Now, using the same process used by the experts. Since there were insects that had access to the fatty decomposing substance like Adipocere, the conditions in that bag were consistent with facts proving Adipocere was unlikely to form. And since maggots can consume a large amount of food in 17 days, and maggots were found in the white trash bag making a popping sound, the conditions found in the white trash bag are consistent with an event that suggests there was at one time food within the white trash bag.
Since we have established the presence of food likely being present in the white trash bag, and the Adipocere not being in the white trash bag, any decomposing odor in the trunk would likely have emitted from the decomposing food that the maggots had eaten in order to survive and multiply inside the white trash bag.
In conclusion, the conditions in the trunk were not consistent with Adipocere being likely to form, but the conditions do show it is likely there at one time was food in the white trash bag, and this could be the cause of the odor of decomposition. It should be noted, the decompositional event in the trunk could have been from human origin.
As always my entire post is moo.

 

[Muzikman]

Todd Iaeger, fire marshal at the Reading Fire Department, says he has seen his fair share of smelly messes. But there's nothing, he says, like the smell of a decaying human body.

Iaeger, who was a firefighter for many years before becoming the fire marshal, recalls one assignment where firefighters found a body that had been in a closed-up house for several days in the summer heat.

"We were all around the corner a half block down, the smell was so overwhelming," Iaeger remembers. "I don't care how many fans you put in a house. There's no smell as bad as that."

http://www.officer.com/article/article.jsp?id=26242&siteSection=18

 

[InspectorGadget]

I can't picture Casey cooking actual meat, really, just over-processed Tyson nuggets or something...I certainly can't imagine her trimming the fat and de-boning anything, either.

Not according to Tony & his flatmates. They were very happy with Casey's cooking, he said they had never eaten so well.

I think I'm gonna go ahead and follow RR004's lead and revisit the food in the car issue when and if there is actual evidence of there being a food in the car issue.

The death banded hair is huge for me. I am confident that the scientists of our time are able to distinguish between virgin toddler hair and processed adult hair and hair that came free from living scalp flesh and hair that came free from decaying scalp flesh (gross, sorry).

Me too, it might not come up!!

 

[InspectorGadget]

If Q12.1 had a root, nuclear DNA would have been performed vs mtDNA.

Hi joypath

Thank you for explaining that.

If you look at post 1003, the documents say that the proximal end (root) was preserved under a microscope.

Does this mean that because it is decomposed it has no root left, and would the roots of naturally shed hairs decompose in the same way albeit without the "death band"?

 

[Muzikman]

Dr. Neal Haskell's report, page 7:
http://www.wftv.com/pdf/21540599/detail.html


In addition, I traveled to the Orange County Florida crime lab to inspect the car (specifically the car trunk) in mid-December 2008. Even after nearly 6 months of time passing and with the trunk carpet liner removed, strong decompositional odor was still present.

 

[Phumi]

Thanks for putting all that info into a single post.

In light of the facts established in your post, it brings several questions to my mind. At some point the maggots must have eaten any and all traces of whatever decomp remains that were ever in the trunk, except for a bit of butyric acid scrapings, and then migrated into the white trash bag to feast on the decomposing fatty substance like Adipocere.


http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/body_changes/grave_wax.htm

Adipocere begins to form within a month. If a body is readily accessible to insects Adipocere is unlikely to form.

http://deathonline.net/decomposition/corpse_fauna/flies/maggots.htm

Maggots can consume 60% of a human body in a week.

There were enough maggots in the white bag for GA to hear them making a popping sound. Therefore, it stands to reason there had to be some food source within the white bag. The black tray in the pictures you provided is an area where some of these maggots were found, so at some point in time there had to be a food source within that black tray, at least it is likely there was.
In my interpretation of the entomologist report, the fatty decomposing substance like Adipocere is NOT Adipocere and it seems Adipocere is unlikely to form if it is readily accessible to insects (which the above link seems to indicate). Also the link states Adipocere begins to form within a month, so yes 2.6 days does fit within a month, although it does seem unlikely it would form with insects having access, and in such a short period of time.
Since maggots can consume a large amount of food (for example more than half a human), in a weeks time, and we know there were enough maggots in the white trash bag to make a popping sound, do we not have to assume at one point in time, there simply had to be food items in that white trash bag?

Now, using the same process used by the experts. Since there were insects that had access to the fatty decomposing substance like Adipocere, the conditions in that bag were consistent with facts proving Adipocere was unlikely to form. And since maggots can consume a large amount of food in 17 days, and maggots were found in the white trash bag making a popping sound, the conditions found in the white trash bag are consistent with an event that suggests there was at one time food within the white trash bag.
Since we have established the presence of food likely being present in the white trash bag, and the Adipocere not being in the white trash bag, any decomposing odor in the trunk would likely have emitted from the decomposing food that the maggots had eaten in order to survive and multiply inside the white trash bag.
In conclusion, the conditions in the trunk were not consistent with Adipocere being likely to form, but the conditions do show it is likely there at one time was food in the white trash bag, and this could be the cause of the odor of decomposition. It should be noted, the decompositional event in the trunk could have been from human origin.
As always my entire post is moo.

:waitasec:
Um...how did "we" establish no adipocere in the bag?
The lab reports confirm that there was adipocere on the paper towels in the bag. The adipocere likely formed elsewhere and was wiped up by the papertowels that were placed in the bag.

 

[LambChop]

KC was raised by CA. The heat in Florida plus the fact that there are dogs in the household of the A's I would think KC routinely would put any food products down the drain. CA would not want her dogs to get sick, nor would they want a small toddler picking raw meat from the trash. Most people who have disposals will use them.

Plus I believe they know approximately when the trash bag went into the trunk after Caylee's death because wasn't there was a receipt in the bag from one of TL's roommates?