Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

[MissJ]

Ditto. I would think it will be the same as the lower court. At least I hope so. How can a court make a doctor do this? :waitasec:

I cannot imagine a situation where the courts could make any MD do any such. I would think their lawyer already knows this and this is just a delaying tactic.:moo:

 

[otto]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ilator-20131231,0,5654464.story#axzz2p4WWB4vj

Sweat shirts with photos of the deceased have been distributed! I'm stunned.

 

[Donjeta]

I dont see anywhere it states this device is used to determine brain death, if I am wrong, someone can point it out to me.....

I suppose a few hours of flat EEG recording on a portable device while the brain dead patient was talked to and perceivedly responded to touch by moving might work to convince a family that their loved one is brain dead and the movements were only reflexes or the work of gravity.

Then again it might not (particularly if there's any artefact from said reflex movements).

 

[otto]

I suppose a few hours of flat EEG recording on a portable device while the brain dead patient was talked to and perceivedly responded to touch by moving might work to convince a family that their loved one is brain dead and the movements were only reflexes or the work of gravity.

Then again it might not (particularly if there's any artefact from said reflex movements).

Six or seven doctors have pronounced the child dead. There is no brain activity and no blood flow to the brain. The family knows this, but refuses to accept it. It seems to me that nothing will change their minds.

 

[Donjeta]

“I think they have to be adamant that they will not begin any new technology on a corpse,” said Arthur Caplan, director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center. “If they don’t, I think it’s disrespectful to the dead in a fundamental way, and it opens the floodgates for other people to say, 'Oh, you don’t really know when we’re dead, do you? So please make more efforts for my loved ones.'"

The attorney representing Jahi's family told local media Monday that he knows he has been widely criticized by some for stoking a false sense of hope, but maintained that he was fighting "for the right of parents to direct the healthcare of their child and for them to make the choice.''

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ilator-20131231,0,5654464.story#ixzz2p4azhg3n


No one has threatened their right to direct Jahi's healthcare imo. They did. While she was alive. Now there is no healthcare that is possible any longer.

 

[mck16]

This is such a bizarre situation. There is a child that died in a hospital due to post-surgical complications. Other children have died as a result of the same complications after the same surgery. It's a known risk. Because the child died in a hospital, machines were immediately available to preserve the body.

For whatever reasons, the family wants the body to be preserved indefinitely. We have a doctor with strong opinions about organ transplant perhaps suggesting to the family that hospitals are eager to declare patients brain dead so that organs can be harvested. However, we know that a family can refuse to donate organs, so that seems irrelevant. We also have a lawyer claiming that there are facilities that preserve the bodies of deceased people indefinitely. Then, we have a judge that seems to want to err on the side of caution, and who has ordered another extension so the family can arrange to transfer the deceased to a facility that preserves deceased bodies with a ventilator.

None of this makes any sense to me. It almost seems like common sense is something from the past.

And who is to say that this bizarre activity will stop with this child. What is next? Every parent will want their child on life support indefinitely? Or if it is a parent and the children want their parent on life support indefinitely. Most adults recognize quality of life and have directives concerning that on file with the hospital. This child cannot speak for herself and her mother is making a mockery of the whole process.

What does she not understand? Her daughter is only existing because of a machine. Take that machine away and her heart beat goes away. The brain tells the organs and the body what to do. Without the artificial stimuli there is nothing. No one would ever say this is not sad, but sadder still is the behavior of momma. I just don't understand it. jmo

 

[Donjeta]

Six or seven doctors have pronounced the child dead. There is no brain activity and no blood flow to the brain. The family knows this, but refuses to accept it. It seems to me that nothing will change their minds.

That's why I said it might not convince them.

I dunno, I think it might be a more complex situation than them not accepting that she's brain dead. The uncle said early on that he understood that. He still wants her preserved for a miracle to occur.

Sealey said that Jahi's brain had been deprived of oxygen. "Now she is 100% brain damaged," he said. "Medically dead."

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/17/health/california-girl-brain-dead/

 

[CCmakes3]

He is extremely well published and has a lot of patents, that is for certain.

Handsome, too :blushing:

 

[sherbetjello]

I am starting to believe that the Judge might have extended Jahi's time because she may not make it, I mean her heart, after this week?

I would think, after all we have learned on the Mcmaths and the conviction of their faith, that it will take Jahi's heart stopping for them to accept she has died.

JMO.

This is so sad.

 

[kimlynn]

I read all the documents too. And it doesn't say anything about a third doctor not finding brain death.
In fact six doctors all agreed she is brain dead. And with no blood flow to the brain, I presume the brain is decomposing if not already decomposed.

I'm not sure if there were six doctors total as the way I read it last night it said that Jahi was examined by Dr. Heidersbach and Dr. Shanahan and found to be brain dead. Dr. Williams (who didn't examine Jahi) agreed with the findings by both doctors. All three doctors are from CHO.
Both parties agreed to bring in other physicians and the 5 physicians chosen by the the parties declined to offer second opinions.
At this point we have examinations by two doctors from CHO.
They then decided to go with Dr Fisher outside of CHO. He agreed with the findings from the two other doctors.
So we have a total of three doctors that found brain death,two of the doctors are from CHO.
I think they are correct as I can't think of any reason they would lie about what they had found,but the way I read it,only three examinations by three doctors.
What I can't figure out is why the hospital is dragging its feet on giving the attorney for the family complete medical records.

 

[Herat]

Every hospital is required to have an Investigational Review Board (IRB) and Ethics Committe to review and approve or deny new technologies, etc.

Any new procedure that would be proposed on a patient of the hospital would have to go through these committees.

The medical staff and administrative leaders at Children's Hospital are well-respected and learned. They are not going to approve any techniques or procedures that do not have prior valid, documented inpatient clinical applications unless there is proper clinical trial data and experience that can be validated by other such accredited hospitals and institutions. The approval of these processes usually takes months.

The facilities that have been mentioned by the family or family's attorney are not at all capable or licensed for any kind of care that this body would need. The fact that they are even mentioned speaks volumes about the misinformation and lack of understanding of this family, or the desperation of their attorney to make a show of things. They are simply ludicrous options and it's clear the attorney and family have not found a serious option.

It's also clear there are many many opportunists out there willing to manipulate this terrible situation for their own publicity. I'm just ashamed at this and the injustice that is being perpetrated to the highly respected physician, nursing, and administrative staff at Children's Hospital. The family's requests are undoubtedly affecting the care of other patients and the ability of CH to accept incoming children who desperately need their services.

I would want to see the family realize they are hurting other people with this behavior.

 

[Herat]

What I can't figure out is why the hospital is dragging its feet on giving the attorney for the family complete medical records.

The medical records is not complete. They cannot just give them a daily printout. That would be incomplete and would just give the attorney something to pick over daily.

It is a completely unrealistic request and the attorney knows it.

 

[meme4]

And who is to say that this bizarre activity will stop with this child. What is next? Every parent will want their child on life support indefinitely? Or if it is a parent and the children want their parent on life support indefinitely. Most adults recognize quality of life and have directives concerning that on file with the hospital. This child cannot speak for herself and her mother is making a mockery of the whole process.

What does she not understand? Her daughter is only existing because of a machine. Take that machine away and her heart beat goes away. The brain tells the organs and the body what to do. Without the artificial stimuli there is nothing. No one would ever say this is not sad, but sadder still is the behavior of momma. I just don't understand it. jmo

I could not agree more.....I just dont understand it either, it just seems so wrong

 

[kimlynn]

The medical records is not complete. They cannot just give them a daily printout. That would be incomplete and would just give the attorney something to pick over daily.

It is a completely unrealistic request and the attorney knows it.

Dolan said that they were giving him incomplete records and also giving him records on the day of court so he didn't have time to read or research the information given.
The mother also was put off when she asked for the medical records before she had an attorney.
This may be why we are going into another delay until Jan 7th.
I do understand that some of the info. wouldn't be complete on a day to day basis,but surely they could be more forthcoming with the records.
IMO

 

[Herat]

Dolan said that they were giving him incomplete records and also giving him records on the day of court so he didn't have time to read or research the information given.
The mother also was put off when she asked for the medical records before she had an attorney.
This may be why we are going into another delay until Jan 7th.
I do understand that some of the info. wouldn't be complete on a day to day basis,but surely they could be more forthcoming with the records.
IMO

Exactly why does the attorney need the medical records?

Can't he pay a qualified RN or case manager to do the scouting for places to accept the body?

The longer this goes on, the more apparent it becomes that the intent of the attorney and the family are to promote a nuisance suit against anyone involved in her care.

Just wait until the lawsuits begin and the entire court system of this area is tied up for years with nothing but worthless suit and motion after worthless suit and motion. That's where the real pain for the taxpaying public is going to come in.

 

[CarolinaMoon]

My greatest fear is that some other child will die for want of a bed in that PICU.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ilator-20131231,0,5654464.story#axzz2p4WWB4vj

Meanwhile, experts in medical and legal ethics have said that the hospital must remain steadfast in its refusal to perform any procedures on what is legally considered to be a corpse.
“I think they have to be

adamant

that they will not begin any new technology on a corpse,” said Arthur Caplan, director of the Division of Medical Ethics at NYU Langone Medical Center. “If they don’t, I think it’s disrespectful to the dead in a fundamental way, and it opens the floodgates for other people to say, 'Oh, you don’t really know when we’re dead, do you? So please make more efforts for my loved ones.'"

I bolded the above, because I share these same beliefs. I realize that some feel that the words by some from the hospital or their representatives have been harsh. I see it differently. The family has been provided grief counseling and pastoral care by the hospital. The hospital has tried to be sensitive with the family and it has been explained to them over and over again. It has been three weeks now. To word things any differently would be misleading to the public and a disservice to the family. The are being honest and blunt.

The family has plugged their ears and closed their eyes to reality. They have kept so busy that they haven't set down to process and think about the situation.

The hospital has been trying to tell them that no facility and no physician will treat her and the reasons why. Insurance coverage, or any form of payment is another issue that is a reality in the matter. Their are legal and ethical implications.

I stand first and foremost for Jahi the child, the patient, even though she is deceased. She deserves, even in her death to be treated in a ethical and dignified manner.

I do have empathy for the family and their loss. No one wants to let go, no matter what the circumstances surrounding the death are.

IMO, the courts cannot force the hospital, or any doctor to perform surgery on the body. The family has been told, they will allow the procedures to be performed if they can find their own doctors to do so. I would imagine, that they could also transport her to another hospital to do the procedures. Then again, they would need a hospital and physician willing to do this.

I have researched the stated facility that is in NY. This is an outpatient rehab facility. They are renovated a home for inpatient care, but it is not even near done. They are relying on the communities time to help build this facility and community donations. This is why it has taken so long and has yet to be completed. They do not have much funding, nor what is need to care for Jahi's body.

"FB rumour only warning", I see it is stated that they need a physician to write orders for her to have therapy. I can think of no other reason for this, other than insurance billing.

IMO, what I am seeing is an attorney stretching (or more) the truth to the courts to buy time. I am seeing a countrywide search for facilities, physicians and unconventional methods to take Jahi's body, operate on it and maintain it with machines, medicine, nutrition and other experimental methods.

IMO, they are looking for those that are willing to go against laws, ethics and even falsify documents and possibly end up with severe legal ramifications to prolong the inevitable, will her body slowly wastes away.

I just can't find any sense in all of this, no matter how I try and look at it.

 

[kimlynn]

Exactly why does the attorney need the medical records?

Can't he pay a qualified RN or case manager to do the scouting for places to accept the body?

This was in his last filings for a TRO. He said he needed the information contained in the medical records to ask questions of the hospital/physicians.

IMO

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I am starting to believe that the Judge might have extended Jahi's time because she may not make it, I mean her heart, after this week?

I would think, after all we have learned on the Mcmaths and the conviction of their faith, that it will take Jahi's heart stopping for them to accept she has died.

JMO.

This is so sad.

The judge extended the time, because they filed at the last minute and have to appeal to a higher court. The extension was given just for that time to appeal.

 

[wendiesan]

Where is it reported that the mother fainted? :waitasec:

I should have put in the reference, sorry about that. The mother said this in one of her earlier interviews when she was describing what she saw happening with her daughter. I'm heading out now, but will post the appropriate link around 1:00 am EST. Thanks for the reminder.